High Jump (Acrobatics) makes no sense


Rules Questions


First off, why is it a DEX based check? Shouldn't high jump be STR? You don't need to be nimble to jump straight up, you need strong legs.

Secondly, a player of mine pointed out that the chart makes no sense for his dire wolf companion. Hilariously, by comparison, a Constrictor snake has a higher Acrobatics High Jump chance then a Dire Wolf. The Constrictor Snake as a High Jump of +11, while his dire wolf (Large-sized and quadrapedal) has an Acrobatics check of +10. That only allows a 2 foot high jump as guaranteed.

Two feet.

So, am I missing something regarding High Jump rules, or is that just RAW and I need to houserule something for the quadrupeds in our group? Would you suggest any existing houserules? Would you make it a STR check instead of DEX? I think it makes sense for bipeds but not quad. How would you handle no-peds, like Snakes?

Liberty's Edge

A high jump is a vertical leap made to reach a ledge high above or to grasp something overhead.

Quadrupedal creatures don’t have the same vertical reach as a bipedal creature; treat them as being one size category smaller.

it's about stretching to reach higher


This is probably the biggest thing you are missing -

From Acrobatics wrote:
Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet

So said Dire Wolf has a +18 on acrobatics made to jump. Also if we assume taking a 10, that's a 28 for a 7 foot high jump.

Meanwhile the snake moves at 20' and gets a -4 penalty, so taking a 10 it would be jumping with a +17, not terrible but nowhere near as good as the wolf.


Strength is part of the ability to jump, but as anyone who has seen a high-jumper (or even a decent basket ball player) can see, raw physical capability is far from what is needed to do a high jump correctly. Or a long jump for that matter. Points in the skill also presents the concept of having practiced the capability, which provides improvements to coordination and the muscle groups associated to that particular task as well as flexibility and timing.


Hawktitan wrote:

This is probably the biggest thing you are missing -

From Acrobatics wrote:
Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet

So said Dire Wolf has a +18 on acrobatics made to jump. Also if we assume taking a 10, that's a 28 for a 7 foot high jump.

Meanwhile the snake moves at 20' and gets a -4 penalty, so taking a 10 it would be jumping with a +17, not terrible but nowhere near as good as the wolf.

I've already included that in the number above. The Dire wolf has Acrobatics as Untrained, so it would be a basic Dex bonus of +2. Then factor in a base speed of 50', that grants an additional +8, leaving a total of +10 High Jump.

The Snake, however, has a trained Acrobatics at +7, plus an additional Racial modifier of +8, granting it a +15 Acrobatics check. With a base speed of 20, that's a -4 to the check, giving the snake a +11 High Jump.

So by RAW a Constrictor Snake is better at High Jumping than a Dire Wolf.


You cannot expect much if you have not practiced. As a track coach for Jr High students I see improvements of up to a foot in a students first year doing high jump.


Satchmo wrote:
You cannot expect much if you have not practiced. As a track coach for Jr High students I see improvements of up to a foot in a students first year doing high jump.
ZanzerTem wrote:
I think it makes sense for bipeds but not quad.


It isn't a perfect system. Feel free to modify it accordingly by, say, adding bonuses to quadrupeds for long jump and a negative to limbless creatures for any jumping at all. The reason the snake has a high acrobatics is to account for several other aspects of the skill, so something like "-10 on jumping" is perfectly reasonable for something without legs. Or just say the thing simply cannot jump because it is a snake after all.


MurphysParadox wrote:
It isn't a perfect system.

Yea, I know. I was more looking to see if there was something I was missing in the RAW, or if any other DMs had any other suggestions/houserules.

I was torn between posting this in the Homebrew, Rules or Advice forums. I picked Rules. /shrug


All things equal, an average wolf 3ft at the shoulder could jump 8 to 12 ft without effort. A larger wolf could jump higher. So let's work this out.

A wolf has a base move of 50, so they get a +8 (20 ft over 30, +4 per every ten over 30). With a dex of 15, he gets a a +2, so all told he is at +10 if no points are put into acrobatics. So, on an average roll, it is rolling a 20 (10 on the die and 10 on the skill). The DC for long jumping is 1DC per foot. So the wolf on an average could jump a 20ft wide chasm. However, the high jump is 4DC per 1ft. So this same wolf would only be able to jump 5 ft (measured from the ground). The average wolf is 3ft at the shoulders. Even if the player rolled a natural 20 and added the 10, the wolf would only be jumping 7 ft (30/4, dropping the remainder).

Ya, I see the flaw here.

Good luck.


I don't know many dogs that can jump over a 6' fence. A quick search on the internet claims 5' 8" to be the record for a dog.

The formula is rough for the short jumps, but much closer, IMHO, when the jumps get higher.

For instance, Jumping 20' high is only a DC of 80. Have you ever heard of anyone that can jump 20' high? By no means impossible in this game.

The current world record for a human is 8' 1/4". That assumes the jumper flipping in mid air and landing on his back. That would only be a 32 Acrobatics DC. At level 4, that is guaranteed for a Monk.

+20 Ki, +4 Ranks, +3 Class, +4 Speed, min +1 on die. Assumes 0 Ability Mod.

So without a much more complicated formula, there isn't really a way to show just how difficult it is to high jump.

Scarab Sages

In other D&D systems, jumping is part of strength-based athletics checks.

This is just one of those weird artifacts from two different skills being merged, like Eyes of the Eagle providing a +5 bonus to hearing things down a corridor.

As long as you're not in a PFS game, I'd recommend making acrobatics strength based for jump checks.


.. and giving a few more classes access to "Jump" as a trainable skill. I'm okay with fighters and rangers not having access to tumbling skills, but not being able to jump gaps?


Meninite Omishman wrote:

A high jump is a vertical leap made to reach a ledge high above or to grasp something overhead.

Quadrupedal creatures don’t have the same vertical reach as a bipedal creature; treat them as being one size category smaller.

it's about stretching to reach higher

Not sure I would agree based on size. My dog can jump father and higher than I can (she can clear a 5ft fence whereas I would climb it).


Komoda wrote:

I don't know many dogs that can jump over a 6' fence. A quick search on the internet claims 5' 8" to be the record for a dog.

The formula is rough for the short jumps, but much closer, IMHO, when the jumps get higher.

For instance, Jumping 20' high is only a DC of 80. Have you ever heard of anyone that can jump 20' high? By no means impossible in this game.

The current world record for a human is 8' 1/4". That assumes the jumper flipping in mid air and landing on his back. That would only be a 32 Acrobatics DC. At level 4, that is guaranteed for a Monk.

+20 Ki, +4 Ranks, +3 Class, +4 Speed, min +1 on die. Assumes 0 Ability Mod.

So without a much more complicated formula, there isn't really a way to show just how difficult it is to high jump.

Most privacy fences are 6ft tall and I have seen dogs take a running jump and get to that height enough to pull themselves over. I also of dogs (who are trained) to leap in the air to catch balls, frisbies, etc. some take a running leap, others from a crouch. That world record for a human of 8'! Is it in a high jump where he has to clear a bar without knocking it over? Or is it jumping up to say, dunk a basketball?


It is the high bar. That is what we are talking about, the distance the lowest point is off the ground.

A lot of people can touch the 10' to a basketball net, but none can jump on top of it.

Getting over a fence and clearing it are two different things. A dog can climb a fence, especially if it can get its front legs over. But that is not jumping over it.


Komoda wrote:

It is the high bar. That is what we are talking about, the distance the lowest point is off the ground.

A lot of people can touch the 10' to a basketball net, but none can jump on top of it.

Getting over a fence and clearing it are two different things. A dog can climb a fence, especially if it can get its front legs over. But that is not jumping over it.

That "high bar" is exactly what the RAW rules are referring to. However, I am talking about an animal jumping into the air at a creature and being able to get within reach to attack (bite). Am I the only one seeing there is a difference?


I think there is some confusion here the hight for the jumps is not the high point that you can grab onto it, is the point where your feet are at.

In the case of the Human high jump records around 8 and a half feet, If a PC monk did this, His feet would be at the bar, and in fact effectively doing a better jump than the actual record. The MEthod used by normal high jumpers of twisting your body around the pivot point so that your body carries over the bar does not ever really apply to PF Although it can probly be extrapolated from the rules.

Actually making a jump of 8-10 feet high where your feet are actually landing at that point with no scramblig or pulling yourself up? I think the rules we have now are fine PF isnt intended to be a simulationist game.

In the case of normal dogs, adding a +4 racial bonus for the dogs that can jump and scramble over a six foot fence covers the extra foot or so needed from what the 'average' stat block provides.

Final note, sticking with dogs the ability to leap high varries from breed to breed, many can make it over a six foot fence, others could if they tried but do not have the instinct to jump and others could never make it. However, I dont know enough about wolves other than they are endurance animals to say wether jumping higher than five feet is good or bad, Although i doubt they have alot of need in RL to jump higher than this.


This is probably about the best a wolf can to upwards, now you would need to add the length of the wolf to see how high its front legs/head can get.

The picture is that of a 'tame' wolf.

Wolf jumping fence

I think I would let a wolf get over a 10' fence. Not by clearing it, but by jumping and pulling itself over.

Sczarni

Also consider the Black Mamba. It's been reported that the BM, which typically grow to 8 or 9 feet can raise themselves up so that 3/4 of their body is off the ground and pull themselves up to branches that are 6 feet high.

This from an animal, that if you measure it's 'height' (not it's length) is maybe 4" tall.

What I'm getting at is the rules are not perfect. The GM's job is to adjudicate now and then.


Vod Canockers wrote:

This is probably about the best a wolf can to upwards, now you would need to add the length of the wolf to see how high its front legs/head can get.

The picture is that of a 'tame' wolf.

Wolf jumping fence

I think I would let a wolf get over a 10' fence. Not by clearing it, but by jumping and pulling itself over.

That picture is both cgi and not a 10 foot fence. I'll try to re-iterate what people are missing. There is a difference between an olympic hi jumper going over an 8 and a half foot pole by arching his body and PF's jumping 10 feet.

if an Athlete could jump 10 feet high he cant reach up and touch something 17 feet in the air. In PF if a character 6 feet tall jumps 10 feet in the air he can probably grab a ledge 17 feet up.

When a dog in RL makes it over an 8 foot fence he likely is arching over it or hiting the top and scrambling over it. He doesnt Hit it so all 4 paws are exactly 8 feet in the air at the same time.

Now it may be im wrong and people are grasping this in which case i'll stop mentioning it.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / High Jump (Acrobatics) makes no sense All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.