Well that's a bit difficult when I am at work. I will post them when I can get home. You can judge for yourself if it is customised.OK, I will post my stats up tonight. Feel free to put up an introductory post setting the scene about where your group is and how they are deployed.I thought part of the deal was to post the builds at the same time, rather than being able to customize for the situation/opponents build?
Andrew said he wouldn't peek and I'm willing to take him on his word. :-)
There's a brief situation set up in tactics. In a nutshell, they're an elite capture group. They have their roots as slavers, but also hire out as capture and return intact specialists. They also still do slave runs for fun and profit. This is such a run.
Mainly open terrain, croplands and small copses of trees. Party is strung out maintaining a 30 ft spacing at all times. BBEG is in the center, rage prophet along side.
One thing BBEGs, especially those with limited magical access so especially martials, could do if the GM wants to is abuse the trap guidelines.
Now, those are guidelines, and abusing them is kind of bad form, but i'm just saying it's possible to use them to create "suite up stations" for buffs, so that they just move to a certain square and whoops do they activate one-time traps that cast Shield, Displacement, Fly, Mirror Image, Fire Shield, Protection from Arrows, True Sight etc on her. Cheesy as hell, but...
Well that's a bit difficult when I am at work. I will post them when I can get home. You can judge for yourself if it is customised.OK, I will post my stats up tonight. Feel free to put up an introductory post setting the scene about where your group is and how they are deployed.I thought part of the deal was to post the builds at the same time, rather than being able to customize for the situation/opponents build?
I'm honestly sorry if it sounded like an accusation, wasn't meant as one. My comment was mostly directed at the "introductory post setting the scene and how tey are deployed" part of your post; I felt that would make it very hard NOT to customize, if you already know it. I would have a hard time to, honestly.
I'm honestly sorry if it sounded like an accusation, wasn't meant as one. My comment was mostly directed at the "introductory post setting the scene and how tey are deployed" part of your post; I felt that would make it very hard NOT to customize, if you already know it. I would have a hard time to, honestly.Well that's a bit difficult when I am at work. I will post them when I can get home. You can judge for yourself if it is customised.OK, I will post my stats up tonight. Feel free to put up an introductory post setting the scene about where your group is and how they are deployed.I thought part of the deal was to post the builds at the same time, rather than being able to customize for the situation/opponents build?
Considering he's a high level spellcaster, I sort of assume scouting of the battle field before the attack, so I can't begrudge him that info. Exact tactics and party makeup details ate hidden because that would require more then casual inspection.
So, this is the stat block for Cassandra. Bear in mind that she has taken CWI so has +25% wealth for 1.1million gold available, actually far less benefit than the feat could provide. What she has done is create some items in different, if still iconic, slots.
So I'm fairly new to these boards and still working on system mastery, but I have to ask ...
(A) How did you get so many spells known (not memorized, but known) as a sorcerer? I count 64 spells listed (omitting cantrips), and I thought as a sorcerer at 20 you would be limited to 34 spells (5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3).
(B) How did you take 15 feats? I thought you would be limited to 10.
Human Favored Class bonus (which Half-Elves can take, and grants an extra spell each level) and he gets a number of extra Cantrips and 1st level spells from his one level of Oracle, is my best guess.
Feats are because he gets Eschew Materials as a Bonus Feat from Sorcerer at 1st, 3 Bonus Feats from his Bloodline, and 1 free Skill Focus as a Bonus Feat from being a Half-Elf.
Her meditations are interrupted by the soft voice of her ally Ecthelion. [I]Intruders have entered the outer precepts mistress. Heavily armed and in number.
I'm having issues with this. You note how difficult Cassandra are to spot, citing the -1 per ten feet. But you just assume to have an ally successfully scout them?
I do think that just assuming that you'll have the upper hand in scouting is a bit of too large benefit. Also note that Cassandra's perception modifier is 38, so she can't see anyone beyond 480 ft. without taking 20 (and then the limit is 580 ft.). While this may sound like a lot, it's quite a clear limitation that has to be accounted for.
First off; Holy. Crap. This won't end well, I'm thinking. I should have taken the extra time to really tweak out Shalob. Oh, well, too late now...
Second, your clarification requests;
1) Let's do high noon. She confident of her abilities and knows there's a spellcaster here, but not exact abilities or power level. (You don't get to be 20th level and remain anonymous, unless you REALLY work at it.)
2) Clear day. I didn't specify otherwise, throwing clouds into the mix at this point would be metagaming, although I would DEARLY love a lower ceiling right now...
3) All are hobgoblins. Three appear unarmed, light armor; three have bows as primary weapons, light armor; three have greataxes, heavy armor; one carries a whip and is unarmored; one carries a earthbreaker, medium armor. The last two walk side-by-side, the rest maintain a minimum 30ft distance from each other at all times. They appear alert but unworried, scanning the surrounding lands carefully but without haste or twitchyness. Weapons are carried at the ready. There is one erineyes keeping station 50ft above the party, also scanning the surrounding lands and airspace intently.
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Ok, here goes. It's ON, ladies and gents!
At your words, several things happen at once. The unarmed hobgoblins quickly scan the sky and glance towards the erineyes. She shakes her head, and they launch into the air on winged boots, scanning furiously for you. They will notice the magical aura from your GI spell and begin to close, pointing and calling out approximate distance and size of aura. At 60 fly speed (ascending, double movement) it will take them five rounds to close on you if you don't move.
The archers immediately scatter, looking for cover. Once any form of cover is located, likely soft partial cover from the crops, perhaps one might find a tree if he's lucky (We'll say one gets lucky) they look to the flying hobgoblins for location before waiting for instruction.
The greataxe wielders move to cover the rear and flanks of Shelob. Mullusc moves to cover the front and begins buffing Shelob. (I forgot to put in his Quicken rod, dammit!) If you let me have the rod (I have it on his sheet, honest!), he does Sheild Other on Shelob and Spiritual Ally. Shelob looks to her flyers, glances at the erineyes, and looks thoughtfully into the sky in your direction. She speaks softly to Mullusc, who shouts "Go and fetch!". The erineyes nods and disappears.
Shelob then shouts in your direction, "Whom do I speak to, that would command me from my course? Obviously a spellcaster of some power, or perhaps a dragon? Why do these people mean anything to you?" She enlarges herself and awaits your response.
So, move actions from all the hobgoblins at this point, positioning themselves. They try to maintain their 30 spacing, keeping to their groupings. The exception are the greataxe warriors, who merely stay within 30 of Shalob, not each other.
Now, some clarification requests from you. What population center do you guard? Do you have any defenses in place there or are you its line of defense?
Oops, my bad. Somehow totally missed the range limitations on arcane sight. Ok, scratch all reference to locating you, flyers ascend in a steep expanding spiral search pattern. All else remains the same.
Flyers have Fly, Acrobatics and Perception maxed. (She only accepts above average intelligence warriors and each is given a +2 Int headband (Perception) upon acceptance into her troop. So each warrior would have minimum +17 Perception, +20 at the very most. Finding you will be hard.
I already did look, hence the "holy crap". :)
Scholars fetch a premium price in certain markets...
While it is an interesting fight to read, i feel it doesnt do much to show the potential ability of a martial bbeg as
1, the setup is incredibly disadvantageous for the martials and they act stupidly and
2, there are a lot of rules ambiguities in Cassandras tactics and each is interpreted in her favor (mind blank blocking spell detection, magical lineage+spell perfection et
Im not saying the interpretations are unreasonable but its subject to table variance, and in.combination with the disadvantageous setup it doesnt seem like a normal high-level encounter.
The ambiguity is order of application combined with dev statements that metamagic level adjustments should be treated in the least favorable way (made in relation to metamagic rods).
But, the thing is, a martial BBEG has to be very smart. At high levels magic is a huge factor. A caster has easy access to powerful magic and can therefore go "max power"; a martial has much less access to it and due to this must use it to "max efficiency". In order to survive to high levels, they must have contingency upon contingency and good allies. A high level martial NPC shouldnt walk around on the open at all, just like a caster shouldnt. Instead, a martial must realize the threat from casters and have a strong defensive position where most of he possibilities of magic have been taken into consideration. Antimagic in strategic locations, walls and ground of materials casters cant easily manipulate (what bbeg would build a lair in stone? In a pathfinder world, thats like if a.modern military would build bomb shelters in clay). Teleport traps will be everywhere - traps in general will be everywhere, not in the least mundane ones.
A bunch of martials assaulting a well-prepared caster in the most obvious way possible will end bad for the martials. A party (including casters) assaulting a well-prepared martial with key allies is a whole different thing.
Just wanted to clarify: I'm not dissing your builds, or your posts. They're great reads and I'm looking forward to what follows.
I just feel it's not a high-level encounter at all in the setup. "Hobgoblins looking to kidnap some people" feel like a 5th level adventure setup, maybe 10th if the hobgoblins are extraordinarily tough and the targets really really important and it's basically a horde of hobgoblins.
Basically, I like to have a rule of thumb (note: not a rule, a rule of thumb);
At 3rd level, saving a person is a minimum.
At 8th level, saving a town is a minimum.
At 13th level, saving a country is a minimum.
At 18th level, saving the world is a minimum.
Basically, I don't think a BBEG wastes time kidnapping some random people. That's what she's got mooks for.
I've gotten a bit inspired by this thread and am currently working (thoughtwise) on a martial BBEG, and this is the basic setup:
Half-human blood war veteran who now acts independently both with having her own army that is dangerous enough, but more importantly she acts as a negotiator and advisor for demons. The party need to stop her both because she has a big frakkin' army threatening to take over the world, but even more because she has managed to get demons and daemons to partially cooperate to kill off devilkind, both with their own ulterior motives. If the blood war ends with demons as victors, what would happen to the material and upper planes? Chaos, that is what.
So the party needs to assault her extraplanar fortress. They know it's trapped, they know it's guarded, they know she has allies.
Currently I'm just doing it as a creative exercise because I've got lots of time on my hands with work being heavier on my back than my mind, but if it turns into something written I might post it here, or even make it a short PbP.
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*glances over archetype*
Gah!
What possible justification is there for an orc only racial requirement on an archetype which has no powers related to orc racial abilities whatsoever and is basically just an archetype focused around a combat maneuver?
I... argh!
There's plenty of threads about fighters as PC's, but how about antagonists? TOo often I see them as just a lackey or bodyguard to the lich/archmage/evilsorceror/skeletor/thulsadoom type magical super villain thats behind the scenes of the adventure path, but how about a FIGHTER villain? A high level badass that makes whole kingdoms cower at the sweep of his blade?
Dungeon masters, how do YOU run your Fighter villains?
Players, what death defying clashes have you had against Fighter villains?
The simple answer is I don't. I don't even use the fighter class for NPCs most of the time. In virtually every instance the NPC warrior class is just strait up better than the Fighter class for NPCs on a pound for pound CR progression.
Rangers? Oh yeah.
Paladins? Definitely.
Barbarians? Lookout!
Fighters? No. What does an NPC get out of being a fighter that they don't get out of just having more levels of warrior other than the initial ability score bump for having a "heroic" class?
According to the rules, every +1 level of fighter increases CR by 1 and grants the following: +1d10 HD, +1 BAB, +1/2 Fortitude, +1/3 Reflex and Will, +.5 feat and +.5 limited selection feat, 2 + Int mod skill points and +1 max rank, +1/4 ability score increase, +1/5 on saves vs fear, +1/6 damage with some weapons, and at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level you slightly reduce your armor penalties.
Meanwhile, every +2 levels of Warrior increases CR by 1 and grants the following: +2d10 HD, +2 BAB, +1 Fortitude, +2/3 Reflex and Will, +1 feat, 4 + IntMod*2 skill points and +2 max rank, +2/4 ability score increase.
So the warrior gets more HP, more to-hit and damage (because the excess BAB + Power Attack / Deadly Aim more or less makes it better than weapon training), better saving throws (Fortitude is great and Reflex and Will are both progressing faster than even the Fighter's saves + Bravery), and you're better at skills (you have more points) and the increased max rank effectively erases the check penalty benefits of armor training (since an actual +1 to the skill is better than reducing the -1 from armor).
Here's a quick example. Which do you think looks like a better BBEG worthy of challenging a party of adventurers?
Valgrath the Black, CR 8 BBEG
Heroic Medium humanoid (human) warrior 18; Init +6; Perception +19;
AC 23 (+10 armor, +1 dexterity, +1 deflection, +1 natural)
Hp 153 (18d10+54), Fort +15, Ref +10, Will +9; Speed 20 ft.; Melee mwk longsword +17/+12/+7/+2 (1d8+19/19-20), Ranged mwk composite longbow +16/+11/+6/+1 (1d8+13/x3); Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 10; BAB +18, CMB +21, CMD 33; Feats Power Attack (1), Deadly Aim (B), Improved Initiative (3), Great Fortitude (5), Iron Will (7), Lightning Reflexes (9), Blind-Fight (11), Improved Iron Will (13), Improved Lightning Reflexes (15), Lunge (17); Skills 54 points (up to 18 ranks in 3 skills); Equipment +1 full plate, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor, mwk longsword, mwk composite (+3) longbow, mwk armor spikes, 4,150 gp worth of additional gear or enhancements
Or...
Valgrath the Black, CR 8 BBEG
Heroic Medium humanoid (human) fighter 9; Init +6; Perception +10;
AC 24 (+10 armor, +2 dexterity, +1 deflection, +1 natural);
Hp 72 (9d10+18); Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +3; Speed 30 ft.; Melee mwk longsword +11/+6 (1d8+15/17-20); Ranged mwk composite longbow +10/+5 (1d8+10/x3); Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 12; BAB +9, CMB +12, CMD 24; Feats Improved Great Fortitude (1), Power Attack (B), Deadly Aim (B1), Blind-Fight (B2), Iron Will (3), Improved Initiative (B3), Lightning Reflexes (5), Lunge (B4), Improved Iron Will (7), Improved Critical (longsword) (B5), Improved Lightning Reflexes (9); Skills 27 points (up to 9 ranks in 3 skills); Equipment +1 full plate, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor, mwk longsword, mwk composite (+3) longbow, mwk armor spikes, 4,150 gp worth of additional gear or enhancements
So if I have a BBEG that is a martial it's usually a mixture of NPC classes or warrior levels with PC dips, or it's something with racial HD plus class levels or prestige class levels. It's never just a fighter. It might be just a ranger, paladin, or barbarian, but it is never just a fighter.
Still kind of ruins the mood of fighting a high level Fighter who is one of the greatest Swordsman in the land, when their essentially going to be a "moneymancer".Jarkoth, the Tyrant Blade: You have come to face me in battle heroes of the lesser kingdoms. I am the greatest swordsmaster of my people, who has slain hundreds of lesser men in battle with my blade. Face my wrath! *Pulls out a scroll*
Heroes: Uh...k.
Not seeing why. Are all your BBEG just stereotypes?
*glances over archetype*
Gah!
What possible justification is there for an orc only racial requirement on an archetype which has no powers related to orc racial abilities whatsoever and is basically just an archetype focused around a combat maneuver?
I... argh!
Agreed...argh!
Not seeing why. Are all your BBEG just stereotypes?
Still kind of ruins the mood of fighting a high level Fighter who is one of the greatest Swordsman in the land, when their essentially going to be a "moneymancer".Jarkoth, the Tyrant Blade: You have come to face me in battle heroes of the lesser kingdoms. I am the greatest swordsmaster of my people, who has slain hundreds of lesser men in battle with my blade. Face my wrath! *Pulls out a scroll*
Heroes: Uh...k.
apparently, they all read the same Villainy 101 book
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Valgrath the Black, CR 8 BBEG
Heroic Medium humanoid (human) warrior 18; Init +6; Perception +19;Valgrath the Black, CR 8 BBEG
Heroic Medium humanoid (human) fighter 9; Init +6; Perception +10;
Uh...Ashiel, we've had this argument before a long time ago, but that's not how CR works for NPC classes. It's -2, not 1/2 -1. As is shown in this or this.
So not really a valid comparison, there.
Valgrath the Black, CR 8 BBEG
Heroic Medium humanoid (human) warrior 18; Init +6; Perception +19;Valgrath the Black, CR 8 BBEG
Heroic Medium humanoid (human) fighter 9; Init +6; Perception +10;Uh...Ashiel, we've had this argument before a long time ago, but that's not how CR works for NPC classes. It's -2, not 1/2 -1. As is shown in this or this.
So not really a valid comparison, there.
Ashiel follows the Bestiary rules for NPC classes, which contradicts a lot of the other sources.
but the bestiary, is the big book of monsters and designing monsters,
Valgrath the Black, CR 8 BBEG
Heroic Medium humanoid (human) warrior 18; Init +6; Perception +19;Valgrath the Black, CR 8 BBEG
Heroic Medium humanoid (human) fighter 9; Init +6; Perception +10;Uh...Ashiel, we've had this argument before a long time ago, but that's not how CR works for NPC classes. It's -2, not 1/2 -1. As is shown in this or this.
So not really a valid comparison, there.
Ashiel follows the Bestiary rules for NPC classes, which contradicts a lot of the other sources.
but the bestiary, is the big book of monsters and designing monsters,
BEstiary guidelines, and one of the more important of those guidelines is "compare it agaisnt other published material".
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Ashiel follows the Bestiary rules for NPC classes, which contradicts a lot of the other sources.
but the bestiary, is the big book of monsters and designing monsters,
I'm aware. Like I said, we had this discussion before...but when there are two valid interpretations of how to do X by the specific text and every single example does one...the other is pretty clearly an incorrect interpretation. This is the case, here.
That's also specifically only in the section on adding Class Levels to existing monsters...so, combined with large amounts of actual evidence that this is not how it works, I think saying that this particular interpretation is wrong is legitimate.
Not seeing why. Are all your BBEG just stereotypes?
Still kind of ruins the mood of fighting a high level Fighter who is one of the greatest Swordsman in the land, when their essentially going to be a "moneymancer".Jarkoth, the Tyrant Blade: You have come to face me in battle heroes of the lesser kingdoms. I am the greatest swordsmaster of my people, who has slain hundreds of lesser men in battle with my blade. Face my wrath! *Pulls out a scroll*
Heroes: Uh...k.
The point was the it would be more effective for a Fighter who had UMD (as people were suggesting) to cast using scrolls in combat, then to attack. This is jarring since as skilled Fighter you would think they could do something other then be a 2-bit caster. For example, which is the better choice:
Cast Gate from a Scroll - Or Move and Attack?
Cast Miracle from a Scroll - Or Move and Attack?
Cast Maze from a Scroll - Or Move and Attack?
If you though move attacking was the better option there, you may need to rethink your tactics. (And if you said shoot arrows at the enemy you may not be thinking with high enough system mastery, since that's the worst option.)
And to answer the question... no my BBEG's aren't stereotypes (even the ones that might appear at first glance to be so), but they also aren't Fighters either. The closest to Fighter BBEG, was a heavily multiclassed martial build that was a Thrall to a Thrallherd, who was in fact the real BBEG of the campaign. (And he was the level -2 Thrall to boot, the other Thrall, a Bard proved far far more effective.)
Here's my try.
Orgoth Bladestrike CR10 BBEG
Human (Shoanti) Fighter (Weapon Master) 10
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +1
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 9, flat-footed 18 (+1 Dex)
hp 111 (10d10+30)
Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +4; +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +3 bonus vs. effects targetting a Rhoka sword held by you
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee (L) bloodspiller +17/+12 (2d6+25/15-20+2d6 (& 1d6 to wielder))
Special Attacks reliable strike, weapon training
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +13; CMD 25 (32 vs. disarm, 35 vs. grapple, 32 vs. sunder, 35 vs. trip)
Feats Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (rhoka sword), Furious Focus, Goblin Cleaver, Great Cleave, Lunge, Orc Hewer, Power Attack, Racial Heritage, Weapon Focus (rhoka sword), Weapon Specialization (rhoka sword)
Skills Acrobatics +7, Climb +15, Intimidate +11, Survival +8, Swim +13
Languages Common, Shoanti
SQ weapon guard
Other Gear bloodspiller (+1 large keen, vicious rhoka), belt of giant strength +2, gloves of dueling, wayfinder, smoky spindle ioun stone(as clear spindle except it protects against metal control as if a protection from good spell had been cast); +1 Full plate, other equipment up to the appropriate gp limit for PC's
Not seeing why. Are all your BBEG just stereotypes?
Still kind of ruins the mood of fighting a high level Fighter who is one of the greatest Swordsman in the land, when their essentially going to be a "moneymancer".Jarkoth, the Tyrant Blade: You have come to face me in battle heroes of the lesser kingdoms. I am the greatest swordsmaster of my people, who has slain hundreds of lesser men in battle with my blade. Face my wrath! *Pulls out a scroll*
Heroes: Uh...k.
The point was the it would be more effective for a Fighter who had UMD (as people were suggesting) to cast using scrolls in combat, then to attack. This is jarring since as skilled Fighter you would think they could do something other then be a 2-bit caster. For example, which is the better choice:
Cast Gate from a Scroll - Or Move and Attack?
Cast Miracle from a Scroll - Or Move and Attack?
Cast Maze from a Scroll - Or Move and Attack?If you though move attacking was the better option there, you may need to rethink your tactics. (And if you said shoot arrows at the enemy you may not be thinking with high enough system mastery, since that's the worst option.)
Well, you are comenting a more general martial issue but lets roll with it.
At those level if we are talking about really wanting to optimize things, I would say that it depends on the situation and on how I make the fighter, and what minions does the fighter have.
By the way I do not see how shooting arrows is a bad idea.
My response was really more commentary on the "Max out the Fighter's UMD." suggestions people were making. If he's going to max it out, he might as well not get a +10 weapon and invest the money in scrolls for optimal performance in combat. While it is a larger martial issue, its an especially serious one for fighters.
As to ranged attacks, at this level (namely 17-20) Fickle Winds/Winds of Vengeance is a given. Meaning unless you want to waste an action getting rid of it (and assuming you even can), you're just going to waste your attacks.
BEstiary guidelines, and one of the more important of those guidelines is "compare it agaisnt other published material".
That's right, and the NPCs made with NPC HD tend to match up very nicely in terms of difficulty with other bestiary creatures of similar CR, unlike the single-paragraph method mentioned as a subnote in the Gamemastering section.
For example, take a CR 1 lizardfolk. Now let's add 10 warrior levels. This increases its CR to 6. Now compare to a babau. Oh look, it's not a pathetic joke. It's actually pretty similar in strength (the Babau likely still has the edge, but at least the lizardfolk is a pretty solid meatshield even if it doesn't have any SLAs and crazy cool powers).
Since "NPC" and "Monster" are nothing but interchangeable terms, I use the bestiary rules because they produce NPCs that more closely match what appears in the bestiary. The core rulebook produces horribly unusable NPCs that are grossly under-CR and over-treasured, whereas the bestiary produces NPCs that actually work.
In my previous post, the 9th level fighter isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Seriously, comparing it to say a Nabasu or Stone Giant makes it quite clear.
However, comparing the CR 8 warrior to the Nabasu or Stone Giant makes a much better case and places it firmly within the realm of CR 8, proving the bestiary method actually works where the previous method fails.
Most of the PC classes work pretty well on a 1:1 basis. For example, a 9th level Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, (Anti)Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, or Wizard are all generally pretty worthy of their CR 8 title since most are significant threats on their own and for one reason or another have a wide variety of options to employ in a given encounter (such as a ranger's animal companion and spells like spike growth, or an antipaladin's incredible saving throws combined with horrible curses and such, or a full-caster's ability to manipulate a battle to their favor, all of these things which bring them closer to Bestiary-levels of difficulty).
However, Fighter does not fall into that category. It has precious little that gives it anything to help it to be worth its CR in any environment. The CR 8 Fighter is just laughable, ready to be dismantled by even a low-level party with very simple tactics, and if you are using the core rulebook method, then the Fighter becomes a pinata that you effortless beat apart and then collect the vast quantities of treasure that spews out of the encounter.
Ashiel follows the Bestiary rules for NPC classes, which contradicts a lot of the other sources.
but the bestiary, is the big book of monsters and designing monsters,
I'm aware. Like I said, we had this discussion before...but when there are two valid interpretations of how to do X by the specific text and every single example does one...the other is pretty clearly an incorrect interpretation. This is the case, here.
That's also specifically only in the section on adding Class Levels to existing monsters...so, combined with large amounts of actual evidence that this is not how it works, I think saying that this particular interpretation is wrong is legitimate.
If by "incorrect interpretation" you mean "one that is supported by the book that talks about building monsters" and "the method that actually works" then yes, I agree fully.
My response was really more commentary on the "Max out the Fighter's UMD." suggestions people were making. If he's going to max it out, he might as well not get a +10 weapon and invest the money in scrolls for optimal performance in combat. While it is a larger martial issue, its an especially serious one for fighters.
As to ranged attacks, at this level (namely 17-20) Fickle Winds/Winds of Vengeance is a given. Meaning unless you want to waste an action getting rid of it (and assuming you even can), you're just going to waste your attacks.
This is a legitimate concern. If I am going to have a badass martial BBEG, I do not want them to just be a handicapped spellcaster who hemmorages their meager NPC wealth to try to fake being a spellcaster.
I want the martial to actually be a martial. I want them to be dangerous in what they do and I'd like their treasure to supplement and support rather than carry. A martial who wears boots of speed and a quick-runner's shirt to strike feat into the hearts of men I am cool with. One that pulls out lots of scrolls and wands and starts pretending he's gandalf-the-plate is not what I will ever want from a martial BBEG.
My response was really more commentary on the "Max out the Fighter's UMD." suggestions people were making. If he's going to max it out, he might as well not get a +10 weapon and invest the money in scrolls for optimal performance in combat. While it is a larger martial issue, its an especially serious one for fighters.
As to ranged attacks, at this level (namely 17-20) Fickle Winds/Winds of Vengeance is a given. Meaning unless you want to waste an action getting rid of it (and assuming you even can), you're just going to waste your attacks.
I thought Ficlke winds was a personal spell, what a absurd spell. And storm of vengeance have a 1 round casting time.
Ok, so where are talking about PC in the 17-20 level. First and foremost, lets stop pretending any NPC alone of comparable CR will do the trick. Druid is a really strong class, but send one to fight face to face against a a 4-6 pc and you will have a very dead druid.
On move and attacking at this level, (and ignoring by now that shirt that get an extra movement to full attack)
- A two hander specialist could just kill a PC with one hit
- A a weapon master could move, target touch AC (with a 30% of criting for x4 dmg), demoralizing the opponet with the hit (-2 to saves) and force one (or 3) saving trows, dazing assault DC 32 (and stunning critical DC 36 and blinding critical DC 34).
In the same movement the weapon master will have a free roll to grapple the target using hamatula strike.
- A mobile fighter could move, swift action enlarge and then lunge and wirhlwind strike with his naginata for an area (volume) of effect and of course dazing assault DC 32 plus cornugon smash. If he crits somebody dies.
- A dervish of dawn coudl just move attack 5 times and kill a PC.
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Now, there are counters to any of the proposed set of action, but there will also be a counter for any set of action your propose. Please let not make scrhodiner liek arguments.
While that is true Alexandros, most Fighters have a pretty limited move, so anyone at least 100 ft. away is going to be pretty safe, especially since they can move and cast 2 spells each turn. Done properly, the Fighter will never close the gap. Even in the event he does, Emergency Force Sphere and Contingent spells should allow casting classes to avoid being stuck. And even should all that fail, they can rely on miss chances (even if the Fighter has a means of True Seeing), or have minions ready to intercept the Fighter.
None of those are Schrodinger's arguments, they're expectations of high level play. I think Cassandra's tactics will show this to be the case.
While that is true Alexandros, most Fighters have a pretty limited move, so anyone at least 100 ft. away is going to be pretty safe, especially since they can move and cast 2 spells each turn. Done properly, the Fighter will never close the gap. Even in the event he does, Emergency Force Sphere and Contingent spells should allow casting classes to avoid being stuck. And even should all that fail, they can rely on miss chances (even if the Fighter has a means of True Seeing), or have minions ready to intercept the Fighter.
None of those are Schrodinger's arguments, they're expectations of high level play. I think Cassandra's tactics will show this to be the case.
Done properly the figther and his group will have means to counter it. Unfortunately, peopel can argue that is more or leas scrhodinger like, but For example 5-10 Cesutodamen would serve to teleport the fighter across the battlefield as needed, without really increaasing the CR of the fight.
lets do something, there is a proposed match in this thread but I think the NPC encounter was bad designed.
I do not like the levels 17-20 cause at those levels the game becomes really crazy, but whatever. I would desing Boss fight of CR +5, give it to someone neutral (to avoid any cheating) and then wait for someone to post a 4-5 Pcs and then we see if the encounter with a fighter boss is posible or not.
* I would prefer Pc or at most 15 levels but whatever.
** As I proposing a testing for a class and not a duel of personal intelligence I would accept any help.
Done properly the figther and his group will have means to counter it. Unfortunately, peopel can argue that is more or leas scrhodinger like, but For example 5-10 Cesutodamen would serve to teleport the fighter across the battlefield as needed, without really increaasing the CR of the fight.
What's a Cesutodamen?
ceustodaemon
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If by "incorrect interpretation" you mean "one that is supported by the book that talks about building monsters" and "the method that actually works" then yes, I agree fully.
It is debatably supported by one line of text. My interpretation is supported by at least three separate books including the core rulebook and every single NPC-class NPC ever statted by Paizo.
I in no way object to doing things your way. Hell, I do so upon occasion...but that doesn't make it correct per the rules. It is a very valid House Rule, but remains precisely that, a House Rule.
If one line of text can be interpreted as something and every single other source in the game contradicts that interpretation, that interpretation is objectively wrong. This is how game rules work.
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If by "incorrect interpretation" you mean "one that is supported by the book that talks about building monsters" and "the method that actually works" then yes, I agree fully.It is debatably supported by one line of text. My interpretation is supported by at least three separate books including the core rulebook and every single NPC-class NPC ever statted by Paizo.
I in no way object to doing things your way. Hell, I do so upon occasion...but that doesn't make it correct per the rules. It is a very valid House Rule, but remains precisely that, a House Rule.
If one line of text can be interpreted as something and every single other source in the game contradicts that interpretation, that interpretation is objectively wrong. This is how game rules work.
When rules conflict it's generally a good policy to go with the interpretation that works. I never claimed that there was only one method, but I did claim the method that works. And by works, I mean the method that produces NPCs that have statistics, treasure, and relative difficulty that fit their ascribed CRs when compared to the Bestiary (which is the authority on the subject). Go figure.
Of course, it wouldn't be the first time that rules conflict on a wide scale. There is tons of material in the game that directly contradicts or just fails to work correctly with the alignment rules. As a general rule I go with what works.
This isn't a house rule. This is seeing two rules that conflict and going with the one that is functional.
This isn't a house rule. This is seeing two rules that conflict and going with the one that is functional.
So, it is a rule that get contradicted like by by every NPC ever, but is not a houserule?
So, it is a rule that get contradicted like by by every NPC ever, but is not a houserule?
This isn't a house rule. This is seeing two rules that conflict and going with the one that is functional.
Not by every NPC ever. Just the ones who aren't built with the bestiary rules. :P