Wanted to look at doing a Dragon Disciple build for WotR.
I like Pal 3, Sor 2, DD 10 for immunities and bonuses to saves but also like Pal 2, Rng 2, Sor 1 DD 10 for the natural weapon feats. I would really like to do a natural weapon build but I am not sure it is viable.
Both are BAB +11 with a CL or 8 or 9. The next five levels could be anything. It also leaves me with a bloodline level of 11 or 12. BAB would be +2 to 5 and caster level/bloodline +0 to +5 depending on what class I finish with.
Also considering an Aasimar Ftr 2, Sor 1, EK 2(early entry by SLA) to DD 10 with 5 more EK on the end. Advantage is BAB +16, CL 14, effective fighter level of 9 and bloodline level of 11.
Are any of these builds viable given the ending fights? A demonlord plus minions just leaves this guy looking weak.
I am sure a DD4 max will be brought up. But I am looking for an effective build using natural weapons and capitalizing on the Paladin bonuses from CHA to saves. If that won't work what should I do to get a viable character along these lines?
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Paladin 4/ sorc 1/DD10/paladin 5
This gives you good BaB. Good smites and decent healing. Another is
Paladin 3/sorc 1/oracle 1(cha to initiative/AC in place of dex) then follow the above.
Natural weapons are completely viable. If you want to go dragon form need more levels in sorc though.
As an added bonus. You can go aassimar with metallic wings too get a total of 5 natural attacks. Bite/claw/claw/wing/wing.
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I think he wants to lean more towards martial here is a 20pt buy out and level by level for him
Angelkin Aassimar
traits- spell knack, and either, armor master/fates favored/reactionary
Str:18 (16+2)
Dex:12
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:8
Cha:16 (14+2)
levels are paladin 1,2 Sorcerer 3, paladin 4, Oracle 5(take the powers for Cha-AC in place of dex or in place of init.), DD- 10(or cap at 8, your choice) paladin rest of the way.
Feats
1-fey Foundling (for the healing, really, its amazing)
3- angelic blood(prereq)
5- Angelic Flesh( prereq) (what type is up to you, though i like gold/steel)
7- Feral combat training
9- Dragon Style
11- Angelic Wings
13- Metallic Wings
15- Dragon Ferocity (you can swap this with metallic wings, your choice)
17- your pick (possibly quicken spell, though a rod can do that for you)
19- your pick
This build focusing on making your natural attacks hurt like hell!
you will have 5 attacks at full BAB doing 1.5x strength as if they were two handed! remember that the sorc levels are there just for buffs, such as Haste, shield, and some control.
How are you taking dragon style without improved unarmed strike and ferocity without stunning fist?
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Er I derped. You need 1 level of monk. (Moms) I derped and left it out as I was in a semi hurry. Then completely forgot to add it in the feats.
So replace level 4 with moms monk
Take dragon style as your feat.
Replace level 9 feat with dragon ferocity.
I thought it was looking a tad weird from what I had envisioned. Thanks for the catch.
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For the limited scope of PFs play I'm able to get my dragon desciple's strength up to 38 (bbn1/sorc4/dd). For a mythic game that goes to higher levels... yeah, you can definitely make a viable melee dd. If you are going for natural attacks then high bab doesn't matter that much, you don't get iteratives anyway and your massive strength and magical buffs will still give you way more to hit than you need for your level. Once you get high enough, beast shape and other polymorph spells become a lot of fun. Only downside I found to it was a low AC (maybe monk/sorc/dd, that would be fun...)
rorek55s' build is great, but it's optimizing a lot more than you need to. If you're idea of fun is trashing every fight without breaking a sweat then go for it, but it is unnecessary. Even for mythic, or maybe especially for mythic; you get so many more character buffs from your mythic levels.
I have an Assimar Pal 2/ Sor 3/ DD that I'm currently playing it's already a lot of fun at level 8 and it's only going to get better.
Personally with this character I regret not taking Crossblooded (Elemental Bloodline) to my Dragons element. I would have taken a -2 to Will saves and one less spell per level but at least I would have the ability to do extra damage with all my blasty spells.
Taking the Eldritch Heritage tree and their claws and the Strength of the Abyss gives you extra claws and another +6 to Str.
...
I keep remembering that I gave her human parents and how screwed up her genealogy is...Half Human/Angel/Demon/Dragon/Elemental....that's too many halves.
If it's for WotR there are some Champion abilities which kind of makes your build work, rorek.
Mythic Weapon Training (Ex)Select one group of weapons from the list of fighter weapon groups. You gain proficiency with all weapons in this group. If you possess a feat such as Weapon Focus that requires you to choose a kind of weapon, you can instead apply the effects of that feat to all weapons from that weapon group. When wielding a weapon from that group, add a number equal to your tier to your CMD against disarm and sunder attempts made against that weapon. You can select this ability more than once. Each time you select this ability, it applies to a different weapon group.
MOMS leaves you an extra feat slot for weapon focus. Choose the Natural Weapon group and take weapon focus in any natural weapon. Also makes Imp critical and even imp natural attack worth it.
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You can do it with non-mythic as a human/scion of humanity aasimar if you take Martial Versatility. You take weapon focus and feral combat training in one natural weapon, and it applies to all natural weapons.
What about the following feats.
Feral Combat Training
Aspect of the Beast
Improved Natural Attack
It seems 2 levels of Ranger would be required for this. 1d6 permanent claws sound nice.
i've played 2 'dragonknights' and really enjoyed both- one was more dragon and the other more knight...
dragonknight: LG angelkin aasimar, pally 3/sorc 2/DD 8
from there i planned to take 1 more pally level for oath of vengeance, and then probably sorc up to 20 for 7th level spells... now that i'm familiar with it, i might take hellknight signifier instead of more sorc levels (better BAB, good gish abilities, no bloodline increases though)
dragonknight: LG (vanilla) aasimar, pally 2/sorc 1/EK 6/DD 4
just take 2 EK levels to qualify for DD... after 4 levels of DD you've gotten the +4 Str, an extra +2 Nat AC, plus bite and breath weapon, so i switched back to EK (since he was weapon focused anyway)... from there i would have taken EK to 10. so at 17th you'd have +15 BAB and CL 13... from there you could take sorc 1/pally 2 for +3 BAB/7th lvl spells/OoV, or DD 3 for +2 BAB&CL (plus blindsense), or hellknight signifier 3 for +2 BAB/8th lvl spells/improved armor abilities.
the biggest issue with both of these builds was AC (balancing spell use with arcane armor training/mastery and figuring out how to best use your swift actions), so you should definitely take armor master (the champion path ability) or mythic armor training right away.
edit: i believe there might be one way for a pally to use divine bond on a natural weapon (yes "a," as in only one- you would have to spend 3 uses to enchant 2 claws and a bite) but it muddies your already busy build (and relies on GM discretion). a monk's unarmed strike specifically counts as a natural or manufactured weapon, and feral combat training lets you "apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike"... you could argue that counting as a manufactured weapon is an effect that augments the monk's unarmed strike and should therefore apply to the natural attack(s). it requires at least one level of monk, and the feral combat feat (and its prereqs), but it looks like it should work to me.
Honestly, if you want to be always using Natural Attacks, I'd consider going straight Sorc/DD.
Take the Archmage ability Shapeshifting Mastery:
Your ability to magically adopt other forms is unparalleled, and you can expertly translate your arcane might into brawn. You add half your tier to the caster level of spells or extracts from the polymorph subschool. While under the effects of a spell or extract of the polymorph subschool, you can use your caster level instead of your base attack bonus when making natural attacks that rely on your new form.
Always fight in a polymorphed form. You will be attacking at full bab. You get 9th level spells, and full dragon bloodline progression. I'd take Shapechange as my 9th level spell keep it up all day (3.3 hours per casting if you take the Magical knack trait to count as CL 20).
Alternatively, I'd consider 1 MOMS/Sorc 15/DD 4. Same caster level, but you get access to the dragon style feats. You would technically also get access to using Imp unarmed strikes in addition to your natural attacks.
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the idea is to use natural attacks. aasimar scion
2 paladin (for saves, people underestimate how important these are)
1MoMs monk (for access to dragon style tree)
1sorc for DD
oracle for Cha-dex for AC.
DD-
then up to you, full sorc after works, or paladin full sorc is more dragon, paladin is more knight with dragon blood.
If you are only going into a one level dip of MoMS, I think an Unarmed Fighter is better. You still get the free style feat and improved unarmed strike, but you also get +1 BAB, armor proficiency to use brawling armor, and proficiency with some really good weapons like Sansetsukon.
Problem here is you need Stunning Fist to get Dragon Ferocity, and you need a 13 wis and 13 Dex to get Stunning Fist as a feat. Not worth it in an Already MAD point buy, but if you roll up some crazy stats, sure.
MOMS gets stunning fist for free, also your unarmed strike damage starts at 1d6 which makes a bit of difference when you're turning huge size.
@Rorek - I was originally convinced Paladin was a good choice, but I really think if you have access to mythic tiers dropping the paladin levels is the best plan. Getting Shapechange as a 9th level spell lets you pretty much keep it up all day. With Shapeshifting Mastery you don't really care about your base BAB other than feat requirements. Ultimately, you lose access to Wish (if you let DD advance bloodline spells) and Shapechange, CL 18 instead of 20, as well a couple 7th and 8th level spells known and per day, in exchange for a weak 1/day smite and a good buff to saves.
Pally is still good if you use a weapon and only want a DD dip for the stats and don't want a nearly full casting build.
I just cant stand low saves, :p
This build doesn't have low saves. It has F 9 R 8 W 13 just from class levels. Straight fighter only has a +12 Fort. Add in a Cloak of Resistance and stat boots to fort and reflex and you're sitting pretty.
Also in FotD 3 you've got +8 Con with no Dex Penalty so your Fort and Will saves are now pretty rock solid. Reflex is still average looking, but the save or sucks are all in Fort and Will.
I'm not saying more saves is bad, I'm just saying in this case, I don't think it's worth it for what you lose.
In a non-mythic build, when you need a higher BAB to be effective in melee, I'd say the paladin levels have a much stronger case for being there.
Can you use playtest? Cause bloodrager 5 seems like a killer way to get into DD... Lots of hp, bab, you can wear med armor on top of your crazy nat armor, rage. Fun stuff.
It's probably better to take Bloodrager to 20 than Bloodrager 16 DD 4. It's not clear that DD advances the Bloodrager draconic bloodline
If DD does advance the bloodrager draconic bloodline it's not too bad, but you miss out on Tireless Bloodrage and Mighty Bloodrage, not to mention a feat and an extra point of DR.
Stat-wise, going DD nets you a +2 strength over straight bloodrager, but loses 2 con, will saves.
The Bite from DD is the only notable addition, and it is very nice IF it works with bloodrager bloodline claws (which are always on in raging). If it only works with the Sorcerer bloodline then you only get it 3+CHA rounds per day.
So... how good it is depends on your GM's ruling until an official ruling is made.
Wow.
Rorek55 I was looking at that build suggestion you made and it is so difficult not to take it; but it would be fun to play this 'alternate' one to my own.
then Dragon Disciple FTW
Charisma to AC and Saves (Reflex, your lowest, gets the bonus twice!). With Armor your AC is stupidly high.
Plenty of Smitey goodness
High Strength, take Eldritch Heritage for total Bonus +10 without doing anything and save your +1's for your Charisma.
You gain three attacks early in the build which are trying to hit at your highest attack bonus (which is admittedly low)
Most of your key abilities into two stats...it's not even MAD.
If I didn't wanna fight as a Dragon so very badly I would incorporate it into my build. Also, I'm focusing on Caster Level with my build...this is completely melee focused, not bad in fact both are good and lots of fun but we have to make choices don't we? For everything we gain, we lose something.
Oracle 5(take the powers for Cha-AC in place of dex or in place of init
Can someone point out where the CHA-AC in place of dex is. Can't find it in my books.
Thanks