Can I cast quickened shocking grasp (or similar touch spell) then teleport to a distant foe with dimension door and attack them with my free touch attack (which if you recall, is technically part of the former spell's action)?
Would that bypass dimension door's "no more actions" limitation?
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The PRD says the touch attack that's part of the spell is a free action. "In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action." A free action is an action, and you can take no more actions after Dimension Door, so no Shocking Grasp until your next turn.
Doesn't the stored Grasp dissipate when you cast another spell, though? In this case, Dimension Door?
If this is the case. Please direct me to the rule in the book it would do wonders for containing my magus.
If not, then i think the dimensional agility feat will do the trick.
Doesn't the stored Grasp dissipate when you cast another spell, though? In this case, Dimension Door?If this is the case. Please direct me to the rule in the book it would do wonders for containing my magus.
If not, then i think the dimensional agility feat will do the trick.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
That's it right there in bold.
So...yeah...chock it up to me being tired.
You could use Dimension Door with a Contingency. That way you've cast it beforehand, no limitations should apply when the contingency kicks in.
One of my friends is now asking how dimension door interacts with a magus' Spell Combat ability.
I'm inclined the believe he could, cast dimension door and still get his attacks when using Spell Combat.
The general rules for Spell Combat say that you can make a full attack AND cast a spell as a full round action. The spell may come into effect before or after the attacks. Dimension door, on the other hand, clearly states that once cast, you can no longer take actions.
Actions are clearly defined within the game's rules: Full-round action, standard action, attack action, move action, swift action, free action, immediate action, etc.
However, if you've already spent the full round action for the turn that lets you get your attacks AND dimension door, then I don't believe you would need to spend any more actions after that and therefore dimension door's limitations are inconsequential in this case.
Is that right?
One of my friends is now asking how dimension door interacts with a magus' Spell Combat ability.
I'm inclined the believe he could, cast dimension door and still get his attacks when using Spell Combat.
The general rules for Spell Combat say that you can make a full attack AND cast a spell as a full round action. The spell may come into effect before or after the attacks. Dimension door, on the other hand, clearly states that once cast, you can no longer take actions.
Actions are clearly defined within the game's rules: Full-round action, standard action, attack action, move action, swift action, free action, immediate action, etc.
However, if you've already spent the full round action for the turn that lets you get your attacks AND dimension door, then I don't believe you would need to spend any more actions after that and therefore dimension door's limitations are inconsequential in this case.
Is that right?
I think this reading is probably on shaky ground. I feel it is technically correct by RAW, but is certainly not RAI. The intension of d-door to end your turn is clear.
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One of my friends is now asking how dimension door interacts with a magus' Spell Combat ability.
I'm inclined the believe he could, cast dimension door and still get his attacks when using Spell Combat.
The general rules for Spell Combat say that you can make a full attack AND cast a spell as a full round action. The spell may come into effect before or after the attacks. Dimension door, on the other hand, clearly states that once cast, you can no longer take actions.
Actions are clearly defined within the game's rules: Full-round action, standard action, attack action, move action, swift action, free action, immediate action, etc.
However, if you've already spent the full round action for the turn that lets you get your attacks AND dimension door, then I don't believe you would need to spend any more actions after that and therefore dimension door's limitations are inconsequential in this case.
Is that right?
No, it is not right. You declared what action you would take, full round spell combat in this case, and then you have those actions to use, however, if anything occurs during your turn that prevents you from taking further actions your turn stops regardless of what actions you may have had left available to you.
Much like an AoO interrupts the flow of a action and is resolved first, potentially ending an attack round while the attacker still had actions remaining, Dimension Door has a very specific ruling that ends further action. The fact that there is a feat that specifically over comes that limitation further solidifies the idea that you do not get further actions.
It all boils down too: is the "action" from the spell definition a game-defined "Action" (standard, move, etc.) or a language-defined "action" (any activity at all).
It all boils down too: is the "action" from the spell definition a game-defined "Action" (standard, move, etc.) or a language-defined "action" (any activity at all).
Why wouldn't the game's rules be using the game's terminology?
DD shuts this down. He has to take the feat to bypass it. I know you like to go with the more loose interpretation of the rules, but by the rules your friend has take the feat. If the magus had a rule in place allowing it to ignore DD or any other action that would prevent use of the entire full round action then it could bypass it, but it doesn't. Without a specific allowance to bypass DD it can not do so.
Except I see absolutely no proof anywhere that dimension door shuts it down. That rules just doesn't seem to exist. People are making assumptions that it does, but in reality, dimension door clearly says it prevents other actions. What other actions besides the full round action is the magus taking exactly?
Dimension Door says "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn." Do you REALLY need it to say "actions or portions of actions already begun" ? The rules are already tome-like without extra rules-lawyer inhibiting language.
Actions can get interrupted by all sorts of things. You don't necessarily get the rest of the interrupted action. DD interupts whatever action you were in the middle of. You don't get any more actions OR the remainder of the action you were in the middle of. There's a feat for that. Get it and use it.
The general rules for Spell Combat say that you can make a full attack AND cast a spell as a full round action. The spell may come into effect before or after the attacks.
However, if you've already spent the full round action for the turn that lets you get your attacks AND dimension door, then I don't believe you would need to spend any more actions after that and therefore dimension door's limitations are inconsequential in this case.
Is that right?
No. That's wrong. Here's why.
"After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn."
The attacks either come before the dimension door relocation or not. If the attacks come before, they can't reach the target. If they come after, you can't actually use them because those attacks are still discrete parts of the full-round action you're undertaking.
Let me explain with an example... the Charge action. It's a special full-round action that allows you to move at double your move rate and make an attack at the end of your motion. Well, if something happens to prevent your attack from being viable - if something interrupts you, you don't get to just say "hey, I'm Charging... I get to make an attack. It says so."
If you're tripped halfway to the target of your Charge, you don't get to make your attack. If your weapon is greased out of your hand leaving your weaponless, you don't get to make your attack. If you are nailed by hold person you don't get to make your attack. Because all of those things interrupt the sanity of the situation.
Paizo doesn't need to play word games. The English language allows for a lot of deliberate misinterpretation and that's exactly what's being done here. Making an attack is still an action, even if it's subsumed into a greater action, and the spell specifically goes out of its way to make it very clear that you're not allowed to take any action.
How about a character with BAB +1 who has some spell-effect on them that says "drawing a weapon now takes you five minutes instead of a move action", and that character's player says "no problem, I will move ten feet West, drawing my weapon as part of that move, then continue my move ten feet East, ending up where I started, and then I attack"? It's bunk. It's mincing words and twisting them. When nine out of ten ways of reading a rule say X and one way of reading it says Y, it's obvious the answer is X.
No actions. Hint: if you're acting, you're not obeying dimension door.
Except the magus in my example above ISN'T using any actions* after casting dimension door.
Except I see absolutely no proof anywhere that dimension door shuts it down. That rules just doesn't seem to exist. People are making assumptions that it does, but in reality, dimension door clearly says it prevents other actions. What other actions besides the full round action is the magus taking exactly?
Stop earning your reputation. You know perfectly well what everyone means. You asked a question, you got answers. If you want to cutesy it up in your own game then that's fine fine, but don't try and pretend you are using the rules as intended.
I've always read it in the "nothing can be done after casting" sense, especially since dimensional agility exists. But this is pretty much niggling RAW vs RAI. I think RAI (considering the existence of dimensional agility) is that nothing can be done after a dim door, regardless of "action".
On top of that, there are other options for a magus to move+attack that are legit, like "blade dash" and "force hook charge". This is just a pretty rare corner case that might need clearing up.
Ravingdork does have a point, albeit one most of us don't seem to agree with. Paizo has on occasion been sloppy in using game terms within otherwise descriptive text. So it's normal to either get confused, or become rigorous in one's interpretations.
Except the magus in my example above ISN'T using any actions* after casting dimension door.
Except I wrote a novel documenting how and why you're deliberately manipulating language to violate the vast majority of the possible ways to parse this.
I invite you to address the points I made instead of repeating your singular interpretation of the language, which I clearly understood.
You know perfectly well what everyone means.
Yes, everyone has been quite clear in their interpretations. I've just not seen convincing evidence of said interpretations within the rules as written.
EDIT: Wraithstrike's post above, which was created while I was writing this post, seems a most logical point to me. I also believe that the existence of that feat lends you guys a lot of credit, at least where intent is concerned. /edit
...don't try and pretend you are using the rules as intended.
I never claimed to be doing any such thing. The only claims I've made is that I remained unconvinced that the opposing interpretations presented in this thread were well supported. I've been basing my interpretation on what the rules actually say, and not on assumptions of belief.
If anything, at least one game developer has clearly stated that "actions" in this instance is being used in the general sense and not a game term (which strongly supports many of this thread's RAI-interpretation posts). He goes on to say that Standard action, attack action, etc. are NOT defined game terms. I don't believe that for a moment--particularly since the person in question has nothing to do with official rules/rulings AND that the terms were originally defined by Wizards of the Coast designers and not Paizo designers.
I think RAI is clear. I also think RAW is clear. In a conflict such as this I think errata is warranted.
Except I see absolutely no proof anywhere that dimension door shuts it down. That rules just doesn't seem to exist. People are making assumptions that it does, but in reality, dimension door clearly says it prevents other actions. What other actions besides the full round action is the magus taking exactly?
If that full round action is in progress when DD is cast then the magus is taking it. The problem is that once DD is cast no more actions are allowed to be taken. DD says the action can not be taken. It does not say if the action is in progress you can continue taking it.
Doesn't the stored Grasp dissipate when you cast another spell, though? In this case, Dimension Door?If this is the case. Please direct me to the rule in the book it would do wonders for containing my magus.
If not, then i think the dimensional agility feat will do the trick.Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.That's it right there in bold.
Thanks i dont know why i wasent able to find that.
My GM will like this rule.
Let's take Spell Combat and the Magus completely out of the picture. Instead, say we've got a cross-classed Wizard\Fighter. He declares a full attack action (also a full round action), makes one attack, and then (since you can use a swift action during a full attack action, to my knowledge) he casts a Quickened Dimension Door to teleport 20 feet away.
Would it be legal for him to then take the rest of his attacks against a foe to whom he's now adjacent? I don't think so - the fact that Dimensional Agility exists indicates otherwise. So why would Spell Combat behave differently? I don't think it would.
Sounds logical, Xaratherus.
I shall think on this, and what was said by Wraithstrike.