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I allow them. I am, in fact, considering only using psionics and martials in my next game. No magic. It just don't exist. I like the psionics system much, much, MUCH more than spellslots.
I use them RAW; I've yet to encounter anything I need to houserule.
No extra effort required, because I do use transparency (because doing otherwise would be an unmitigated disaster).
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Since Ultimate Psionics is on the verge of release, and since DSP's (Dreamscarred Press') three books have been out for awhile now, let's talk psionics.
You don't talk psionics. You mindlink and then just think psionics.
Do you allow them in your campaign? If so, are they RAW, or do you houserule some things?
Do you not allow them in your campaign? If not, why?
My groups have allowed psionics since the 3.5e Expanded Psionics Handbook was released. We've also been actually using it since then on and off... not every campaign has a psionic PC in it. That said, as a DM I feel absolutely comfortable dipping into psionic classes for advancing monsters and NPCs.
We play psionics RAW.
Have you encountered any unusual challenges with them? Do you find it takes extra effort to make them feel fully integrated into your campaign? Will your PCs go up against psionic villains or monsters even if none of the PCs are psionic?
The only thing to be aware of is that if you house-design your campaigns and make things one-encounter-a-day, it's somewhat easier for a psionic manifester to blow all their resources on heavy powers at once. Imagine a wizard who knows he's only got one encounter during the day AND he has an ability that lets him take three magic missile spells and turn them into a fireball. You KNOW he's going to do it. As long as the players can't count on single-encounter days, it's fine.
We find psionics integrate into the game exactly as well as the arcane/divine division does. It's exactly the same thing... magic only done differently.
Do you use Magic/Psionics Transparency (where they each interact with one another as the same kind of "energy", just different flavors), or are they completely separate for you, where a Dispel Magic or Anti-Magic Field would have no effect on psionic phenomena?
Absolutely. This is probably the most important bit. Spell Resistance IS Psionic Resistance. Again, just like arcane & divine, just treat this as a different power source. Things get complicated quick if you treat psionics differently. I strongly don't advise it.
Curious to hear your thoughts!
Most of my players like character sheets that make you think. We like tricky builds that do odd things. Psionics gives the player more to think about in terms of budget. Like rage rounds/day you have limited resources to manifest powers and it's much more granular than spell slots. So you can deliberately decide to manifest a lower-powered fireball than normal, to save points. That's an example... there isn't a psionic fireball but imagine there was, and imagine you could decide to - even being 10th level - manifest a 2d6 one that only uses 2 power points instead of a 10d6 one that uses 10 power points.
The point here is that we like the math and calculation that this allows, as opposed to the vancian spellcasting system. We use the core classes more often, but love to dip into psionics.
Since Ultimate Psionics is on the verge of release, and since DSP's (Dreamscarred Press') three books have been out for awhile now, let's talk psionics.
Do you allow them in your campaign? If so, are they RAW, or do you houserule some things?
Yes I allow them, and I don't house-rule anything much and nothing specifically about psionics. In fact other than monk amendments the only major thing I house-rule is that save-or-die spells and effects actually reduce you to -{spell level} hit points and dying, rather than killing you outright.
Have you encountered any unusual challenges with them? Do you find it takes extra effort to make them feel fully integrated into your campaign? Will your PCs go up against psionic villains or monsters even if none of the PCs are psionic?
No, but then I addressed the issues of where psionics "comes from" at the outset. As far as most people in the world are concerned, psionics is pretty indistinguishable from magic and psionics are just odd sorcerers.
That said, aside from one campaign on the boards here, I have had few takers for using psionics in the games I DM.
Do you use Magic/Psionics Transparency (where they each interact with one another as the same kind of "energy", just different flavors), or are they completely separate for you, where a Dispel Magic or Anti-Magic Field would have no effect on psionic phenomena?
I use transparency, absolutely.
We've tested them in a few shorter modules and settings and found them really powerful. I generally won't allow them in most campaigns due to this, but do try mix it up now and then I plan to run exclusively psionic/path of war material. That way everyone is on the same playing field at least.
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We've tested them in a few shorter modules and settings and found them really powerful.
Unless you permit nova scenarios, psionics is FAR less powerful than core magic.
We've tested them in a few shorter modules and settings and found them really powerful.Unless you permit nova scenarios, psionics is FAR less powerful than core magic.
But Nova scenarios with overchannel and martials taking psionic feats are most of what Psionics are used for.
The typical player who wants psionics is is drooling looking at overchannel and how they can burn all the power points at once.
Hence the word 'permit'.
I've had some really negative experiences with Psionics.
I don't like the way the Psion class interacts with having heavy armor proficiency.
I don't like that there are no components for them; and I hate the aforementioned overchannel.
The only time I've seen Psionics in a game and it not be at least moderately disruptive is in a setting akin to Darksun where Psionics are the norm, and even then its another entire system the GM has to learn which is frustrating.
I hear that opinion a lot and don't necessarily agree with it. Very possible we were missing something, but they were performing well above everyone else and very easily at that. I will say we never tested every class but of the 4-ish that were permitted for testing, they at least seemed a bit much.
Novas were not being permitted, it was a very standard adventuring day with usually 5-10 seperate encounters if not more.
I am aware of the spending psionic points rule. Even then our wilder was able to pump out consistently 6d10 to 8d10 with a mind-thrust at level 4 using chaotic surge. He did this almost every fight, as well. I will note I wasn't DMing him, just another player but when I read through the rules after I couldn't find any reason he couldnt' do what he was doing.
If I missed some reason why this couldn't be done I honestly want to know it as I scoured the material after that session as it seemed crazy at the time.
*edit* Added more details. Confirmed with other player he wasn't using overchannel, just the wilder surge ability.
Just to make sure you know (don't think anyone has mentioned it yet from a quick look) you can't spend more PP than your manifester level for a single manifestation.
Remember this and you avoid 99.9% of the problems people have with psionics.
Except with Overchannel. . .
Except with Overchannel. . .Just to make sure you know (don't think anyone has mentioned it yet from a quick look) you can't spend more PP than your manifester level for a single manifestation.
Remember this and you avoid 99.9% of the problems people have with psionics.
Which, gets you, at most, a +3 to your ML (at 15th level).
Also, Mind Thrust is garbage. No damage on a successful save. Mind-affecting. Ie. Completely useless. Take Crystal Shard, you'll thank me later with its SR: No, Saving Throw: No, ranged touch attack goodness.
The only thing I wouldn't allow is Ego Whip.
Maybe, maybe I'd restrict the use of armor by having arcane spell chance failure apply to armors you aren't proficient with from your class.
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Which, gets you, at most, a +3 to your ML (at 15th level).Except with Overchannel. . .Just to make sure you know (don't think anyone has mentioned it yet from a quick look) you can't spend more PP than your manifester level for a single manifestation.
Remember this and you avoid 99.9% of the problems people have with psionics.
Not to mention the HP damage you'll be taking if you do that. That +3 costs 5d8 hp per power.
Elans can kinda sorta do it.
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Ya, the only things that breaks Psionics is (shock!) magic. Ok and the Psionic Artificer was a huge mistake... someone at development didn't realize that Dorjes go to 9th level and assumed that they were just psionic wands.
But I do like that the Artificer is the only class so OP that it's on the list twice.
Elans can kinda sorta do it.
By using a racial power that a) eats their immediate/swift action and b) is less efficient, in terms of PP to HP, than a first level power.
On the subject of Psionics themselves, I like them, but they don't see much play in my campaign, not fitting the theme very well (Skull & Shackles AP). When I run one-offs, or if I start a homebrew campaign someday, I'll definitely allow them.
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They fit any theme magic does, except they do it even better, since in most stories magic works more like psionics then like vancian magic.
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Yes our group uses psionics in all Campaigns we play.
Yes we use Magic/Psionics Transparency, makes for easy integration into any gaming group.
Yes to RAW.
As to any extra work when it comes to adding the rules set, I would say yes to consuming some extra time initially but once you learn the Power Point system it becomes just as fluid as any other aspect of the game.
With that said IMO the PPS that Psionics uses is far more enjoyable than the Vancian system has ever been and for that reason are group converts many of their characters (that are casters) to the point system.
I like them. I've only seen them a couple of times in play (PC psion and psychic warrior) but they fit in as well as the other classes. There were a couple of powers that raised an eyebrow ("energy missile does how much damage. . .?") but so did color spray the first time it knocked out a group of thugs.
And you can totally make an Aes Sedai or Asha'man style character that actually plays differently from a wizard or sorcerer.
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I am aware of the spending psionic points rule. Even then our wilder was able to pump out consistently 6d10 to 8d10 with a mind-thrust at level 4 using chaotic surge. He did this almost every fight, as well. I will note I wasn't DMing him, just another player but when I read through the rules after I couldn't find any reason he couldnt' do what he was doing.
If I missed some reason why this couldn't be done I honestly want to know it as I scoured the material after that session as it seemed crazy at the time.
According to the PRD:
Wild Surge and Psychic Enervation: The chaotic wilder unlocks ways to increase her manifester level beyond the dreams of most wilders, but doing so is even more dangerous. When the chaotic wilder invokes a wild surge, she rolls a d4. If the result is a 1, the chaotic wilder's power manifests at one manifester level lower than normal. If this would result in a manifester level too low to manifest the power, the wilder is shaken until the start of her next turn and the power fails, although the chaotic wilder does not spend any power points. If the result is a 2 or 3, the chaotic wilder's manifester level is improved by 1. If the result is a 4, the chaotic wilder's manifester level is improved by 2. When the chaotic wilder's wild surge improves (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels) or when using perfect surge, treat each bonus the same way. For example, at 7th level, a result of 1 would mean the manifester level is reduced by 3, a result of 2-3 would mean the manifester level is increased by 3, while a result of 4 would mean the manifester level is increased by 6. Because the chaotic wilder has less control over her wild surge than most wilders, she has a 25% chance of triggering psychic enervation. When the chaotic wilder triggers psychic enervation, she is affected based upon her wild surge roll. On a 1, she is dazed until the start of her next turn. On a 2-3, she is dazed until the end of her next turn and loses a number of power points equal to her manifester level. On a 4, she is dazed until the end of her next turn and loses a number of power points equal to twice her manifester level. The increase in manifester level from her wild surge does not increase the number of power points lost.
So at 4th level, he should have been chaotic-surging for 2d10 to 7d10 damage on a mind thrust, with a successful Will save negating all damage. On some circumstances, yes this is an "I win" at 4th level, on other's it's an "oh cr@p" that leaves them worse off - especially with the 25% enervation chance.
The psionic classes are well-balanced, but I have problems seeing how they are overpowered.
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Psionics don't appeal to me. Psychics feel too science fiction for my fantasy tastes. In standard Pathfinder lore, psychic powers are more related with otherworldly monsters -- it's what makes them alien, terrifying, and monstrous. Making it commmonplace with PCs doesn't feel right. It makes the monsters less mysterious and makes the PCs more monstrous.
Still, I'd probably allow psionics, but would refluff it or require a psionic PC to be somehow touched by an otherworldly presence that haunts them.
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In my 3.5 days, we never used psionics. Then I moved and switched groups and had players ask me about it and I decided to allow it. They have a few tricks that make them really powerful, and I'm still not sure what Autohypnosis actually does for me, but I do really enjoy them.
I have used some variance from RAW, mostly in the race department. I used the base Duergar from PFRPG, and then subbed out the spell like abilities for the Psionic stuff, and it balanced fine. That way the psionic stuff is more like an alternate option to the race, rather than it being a completely different race that looks the same and has the same name.
I'm also incorporating Gem Dragons, but my players won't know that until the end of this adventure they are currently in.
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We used psionics more in 1st and 2nd edition than we did in 3.0 and 3.5. 2nd edition psionicists were kind of fun, particularly after The Will & the Way introduced some flexibility.
None of us had a thematic problem with it in 3.X, since, really, the psionic system was a *far* more appropriate system to model the sorts of 'magic' one sees in the greater majority of fantasy novels, shows, movies, etc. than the Vancian 'mnemonic' system and obviously science fiction-y spells like clone and time stop (and old-school stuff like distance distortion and duo-dimension and black holes of annihilation and 33,000 cubic foot expanding fireballs, which kind of made it so that anyone who hated sci-fi in their fantasy obviously was never gonna play D&D anyway), it was just that nobody really wanted to play one, so we never got around to learning the rules.
(Same with binders, truenamers, the OA classes, etc. Nobody cared to play one, so we never learned the rules. There was no actual dislike of those systems or their flavor.)
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Psionics are more powerful than spell magic... mainly because spell casters have very few useful powers as you level since only the top tiers of spell levels are relevant. The versatility of PP over slots is also huge. They can take a low level power and always make it useful vs mages who may as well forget they even have those useless low level slots past a certain level.
So no I don't use psionics EXCEPT in games which only feature psionics. After all magic users are powerful enough vs martials why give them an even bigger advantage?
Not to say I dislike psionics. But since they are better than slots it requires a switch over rather than side by side with mages.
Psionics are more powerful than spell magic... mainly because spell casters have very few useful powers as you level since only the top tiers of spell levels are relevant. The versatility of PP over slots is also huge. They can take a low level power and always make it useful vs mages who may as well forget they even have those useless low level slots past a certain level.
So no I don't use psionics EXCEPT in games which only feature psionics. After all magic users are powerful enough vs martials why give them an even bigger advantage?
Not to say I dislike psionics. But since they are better than slots it requires a switch over rather than side by side with mages.
People complain all the time about Wizards being too powerful, but if they could take a level 2 spell and three level 1s and use those to cast a level 5?
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People complain all the time about Wizards being too powerful, but if they could take a level 2 spell and three level 1s and use those to cast a level 5?
That would actually be a 2nd level spell and six 1st level spells, if you wanted to translate spell slots to power points. It doesn't quite work out that way, though, since powers don't benefit from free scaling like spells do. Those 1st and 2nd level spells are going to get stronger with every caster level, but to get the benefits of a higher manifester level you need to spend more points on your power.
CL 5 burning hands does 5d4 damage. An ML 5 energy ray still only does 1d6 damage... unless you spend the equivalent of a 3rd level slot on it.
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Psionics are more powerful than spell magic... mainly because spell casters have very few useful powers as you level since only the top tiers of spell levels are relevant. The versatility of PP over slots is also huge. They can take a low level power and always make it useful vs mages who may as well forget they even have those useless low level slots past a certain level.
So no I don't use psionics EXCEPT in games which only feature psionics. After all magic users are powerful enough vs martials why give them an even bigger advantage?
Not to say I dislike psionics. But since they are better than slots it requires a switch over rather than side by side with mages.
You have this completely backwards. Wizards low level spells benefit from free scaling and thus stay very viable while Psionic powers get no such benefit. Psionics is consistently less powerful then magic, because Psionics was balanced better then magic from the start. A psion using a low level isn't actually using a low level power, their using a high level power that they made out of a low level one. A Wizard gets to do that for free.
Seriously, the only Psion that was on the same level as Wizards was the Spell to Power Erudite and that was because spells are to powerful, not powers. So your post will read more accurately if you flip it around.
The only problem I have with Psionics is that if you're running a campaign that also has magic, you have to explain what the difference is between them and how they interact.
Sort of like if the Force existed in the Harry Potter books. It gets...complicated.
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You already have Arcane and Divine. Psionics is just divine magic that comes from you telling the world what you want to do. And because it comes directly from you, you don't need any of the associated mumbo jumbo that divine casters need to cat spells. There difference explained.
The only problem I have with Psionics is that if you're running a campaign that also has magic, you have to explain what the difference is between them and how they interact.
Sort of like if the Force existed in the Harry Potter books. It gets...complicated.
How is The Force not magic enough to fit into Harry Potter? For all I know wizardry in harry potter could be powered by midichlorians, I mean it encompasses most Jedi powers. Hell there are telekenetic spells.
I have been hesitant to go for psionics. Mostly for the opposite of above. I feel reluctant to get a product with 10 new classes to represent what I feel is just another form of magic. No one has really told me anything that spells out to me that psionics is not just rules for mana pool wizards. I don't mind mana pool wizards but I already have third party materials that have mana pools instead of spell slots for wizard/sorcerer.
So Ultimate Psionics is on my wishlist but I'm a little afraid to push the buy button.
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You can find the rules online, use them and then decide if you want to buy it. And for the most part it is another kind of magic, but so what? Its more different from Arcane magic then Divine magic is and no one complains about those being to similar.
You can find the rules online, use them and then decide if you want to buy it. And for the most part it is another kind of magic, but so what? Its more different from Arcane magic then Divine magic is and no one complains about those being to similar.
Its not that its just a different form of magic, but its that they're 10 classes worth of more magic. It's kind of daunting.
Also I don't know how different psionic powers are from the other magics.
That said I should stroll on over to the OGC and take a deeper reading. Nobody has sold me on it with any real detail so for all I know psionic spells are probably drastically unique.
Thanks to the Augment system they are very unique. It's really the system thats different not the magic so much, but the system is excellent.
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Thanks to the Augment system they are very unique. It's really the system thats different not the magic so much, but the system is excellent.
Indeed. IMFAO, that's how magic SHOULD work.
Psionics are more powerful than spell magic... mainly because spell casters have very few useful powers as you level since only the top tiers of spell levels are relevant. The versatility of PP over slots is also huge. They can take a low level power and always make it useful vs mages who may as well forget they even have those useless low level slots past a certain level.
So no I don't use psionics EXCEPT in games which only feature psionics. After all magic users are powerful enough vs martials why give them an even bigger advantage?
Not to say I dislike psionics. But since they are better than slots it requires a switch over rather than side by side with mages.
You have this completely backwards. Wizards low level spells benefit from free scaling and thus stay very viable while Psionic powers get no such benefit. Psionics is consistently less powerful then magic, because Psionics was balanced better then magic from the start. A psion using a low level isn't actually using a low level power, their using a high level power that they made out of a low level one. A Wizard gets to do that for free.
Seriously, the only Psion that was on the same level as Wizards was the Spell to Power Erudite and that was because spells are to powerful, not powers. So your post will read more accurately if you flip it around.
No I don't. Free scaling would be great if there were no level cap. But as soon as you move past the level cap the utility of those spells drops rapidly till they end up as wasted space on your sheet. Take that 5d4 Burning Hands... that IS the max power it can do. A Psion can pump ALL his powers up to whatever level he requires (within ML limits).
No I don't. Free scaling would be great if there were no level cap. But as soon as you move past the level cap the utility of those spells drops rapidly till they end up as wasted space on your sheet. Take that 5d4 Burning Hands... that IS the max power it can do. A Psion can pump ALL his powers up to whatever level he requires (within ML limits).Intensify Spell is a thing. You're comparing 10d4 damage for a 2nd level slot against 10d4 damage for 10PP (which translates roughly to a 5th/6th level slot).
Now, if your problem is that every Psion has Intensify Spell for free, consider its *still* treated as a 1st level power for all intents and purposes like, say, a Globe of Invulnerability, but is expending resources as if it was affected by Heighten Spell.
Also note that all the spellcasting classes are either prep casters, who can ignore spells that become obsolete, or are spontaneous casters who can swap out obsolete spells. Color Spray no good anymore? Swap it, or just rip the page out of your book.
Psionic power selections are permanent.
Psionic power selections are permanent.
If that's the case its an oversight. There's no reason why they should be. . . though far fewer of them become completely useless.
Also intensify spell raises the spell slot of the spell, but you still have all those level 1/2/whatever spells hanging out not being useful.
I use them in my games, and pretty much have since the first article came out about the psionicist class back in first edition. The only time they felt over powering to me is when neither I nor the player playing the psionicist noticed the limit that you can't spend more points on a power than you have levels (which makes Ego Whip a quick boss killer if you don't pay attention to that rule).
In the current pathfinder game we're using Dreamscarred's stuff and I enjoy it (heck I enjoyed it so much that I had them create an iconic for the player who's playing the wilder in my current game).
The only "house rule" in put in is incorporeal creatures are immune to most mental psionic attacks (but this was to make them a tiny bit of a challenge).
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Psionic power selections are permanent.If that's the case its an oversight. There's no reason why they should be. . . though far fewer of them become completely useless.
Also intensify spell raises the spell slot of the spell, but you still have all those level 1/2/whatever spells hanging out not being useful.
A 10th level wizard does 10d4 damage with a 2nd level slot (Intensified Burning Hands), the equivalent of 3 PP. A psion would have to spend 10pp (equivalent of a 5.5 level spell).
You guys are missing the point. Sure you can meta magic the hell out of spells if you have enough feats. BUT those 1st level slots are still sitting unused. Lets face it Points are a superior system to Slots. If a Psion wants to burn brightly he can while a mage gets his one highest level spell... then his power drops to a level lower... then lower... then lower till it becomes pointless to cast and you have to pull out the crossbow. The Psion is firing off multiple high level effects. Sure after the Psion runs out he has to switch to a weapon too. But would you rather stay at high level power the whole time or cast at a continuously diminished rate like a slotted caster? Lets face it they are both going dry quickly. Oh the caster has spells left but because a stack of first or second level spells is just lame they may as well not.
If points were not a superior system face it you guys wouldn't be fighting SO hard for it.
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Is it a superior system? Absolutely. Is it more balanced then Casting? Again absolutely. Is it more powerful then casting? Ahahahahaha.... No. The Wizard has significantly more power in their 7-9th slots then a Psion does with all 9ths.
Also the reason most of us like Psionics is because its more balanced (ie. weaker) then magic.
Hmm. I'm seeing a lot of misconceptions about Psionics. I'm sure that argument is going to come down to "I just don't like the flavor of psionics despite them being far more balanced than Vancian casting!"
I might open up psionic classes to my players in the next game I run. I saw a Soulknife played once and it seemed fairly tame. I played a Wilder in 3.5 too. That was pretty fun.