Mythic powers


Rules Questions

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Let us say that the RAW, as parsed, does say that. Who is to say that what the Devs meant it to say? They use the fAQ section to also Errata rules and correct typos.

So, even tho I am not convinced that it is RAW, it still is a Question that is Frequently Asked, and seems game-breakingly powerful.

Note the FAQ on "inspired spell" and "wild arcana" .


Yeah no. Abilities do what they say they do. Pretending otherwise is absurd.

There is no "common sense" or "RAI" methods require. The ability does what it says it does. Arguments to the contrary are nonsense.

EDIT: This post was not in response to Dr. Deth


One additional point to raise on this discussion.

"It treats one hour of sleep as 8 for the purposes of recovering limited use abilities."

Directly from Mythic Adventures:

"This rest is treated as 8 hours of sleep for such
abilities.
This rest doesn't refresh uses of mythic power
or any mythic abilities that are limited to a number of
times per day.
"

In bold. Now, (to play devil's advocate), it does say it counts as 8 hours. Therefore, would that not mean, that since it counts as counts as 8 hours, it overcomes the "You cannot regain spells you have cast within the last 8 hours."

If so, then the mythic point rest/ recovery counting as 8 hours of rest also clears as it would, by default rest rules (correct me if I am wrong Rynjin [you do know your rules mate]) the 8 hour recent casting limit?

In italics: This, by RAI (to me only), seems to outline the limitation of the rest. Using my brain to make my mind up & reading comprehension to understand the intent, this gives the guidelines on what is not covered. Which is anything based off of Mythic power. Therefore, to me, it would potentially allow the recent casting limit to be overcome.

To toss on another log to this fire, for consideration. I have seen new arguments implicating "resource management" with mythic points being limited to X per day. I agree MP are limited, however, at Mythic Tier 10 you get :

Legendary Hero (Su): At 1oth tier, you have reached the
height of mortal power. You regain uses of your mythic
power at the rate of one use per hour
, in addition to
completely refreshing your uses each day.

@Rynjin: On a side note, there is nothing wrong with being "rigid". I have enjoyed reading both your's & bigrig's posts, they have given me food for thought & consideration of different ways of looking at this stuff.

EDIT: This post was not intended to single out anyone in particular as any form of insult or attack.


Marthkus wrote:

Yeah no. Abilities do what they say they do. Pretending otherwise is absurd.

There is no "common sense" or "RAI" methods require. The ability does what it says it does. Arguments to the contrary are nonsense.

EDIT: This post was not in response to Dr. Deth

By your own reason (see bold above), it doesn't let you break the 24-hour-period rule.


Tyrannon, I'm glad I could expand your thoughts!


Okay, now I'm confused. Is the daily casting limit 24 hours or 8 hours? Can someone post a link to help me find it? I don't like to give my opinion on rules unless I know what I'm talking about.


bigrig107 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

Yeah no. Abilities do what they say they do. Pretending otherwise is absurd.

There is no "common sense" or "RAI" methods require. The ability does what it says it does. Arguments to the contrary are nonsense.

EDIT: This post was not in response to Dr. Deth

By your own reason (see bold above), it doesn't let you break the 24-hour-period rule.

No, because if it didn't then you couldn't regain spells.


bigrig107 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

Yeah no. Abilities do what they say they do. Pretending otherwise is absurd.

There is no "common sense" or "RAI" methods require. The ability does what it says it does. Arguments to the contrary are nonsense.

EDIT: This post was not in response to Dr. Deth

By your own reason (see bold above), it doesn't let you break the 24-hour-period rule.

Bigrig beat me to it.

@Tyrannon: I can sorta kinda see that, but based on other things in the rules (namely the Ring of Sustenance) I still don't think it was intended to work that way. It's not actually passing the time, it's just amking you "sleep faster" basically.

Though it raises an interesting question, does it work on personal time, or universal time?

How is a Timeless, or Slow/Fast Time demiplane supposed to interact with the recent casing limit?

If universal, you'd actually never be able to recover spells in a Timeless plane.

Sindalla wrote:
Okay, now I'm confused. Is the daily casting limit 24 hours or 8 hours? Can someone post a link to help me find it? I don't like to give my opinion on rules unless I know what I'm talking about.

8 hours.


Sindalla wrote:
Okay, now I'm confused. Is the daily casting limit 24 hours or 8 hours? Can someone post a link to help me find it? I don't like to give my opinion on rules unless I know what I'm talking about.

Can't grab a link as I'm tied up at the moment but they're two seperate things if I remember right

1) If you cast a spell in 8 hours you can't rememorize that slot.
2) You can only memorize a spell once every 24 hours.

So say on Sunday you memorize fireball then cast it Monday at 2am you.can memorize a new fireball spell that day but not till 8 hours have passed I.e. 10am or later however if you cast that newly memorized one at 12pm even after 8 hours have passed (8pm) you can't memorize a new one till the next day.

Note: I'm on the side of the mythic ability letting you refresh your spells every hour as long as you have mythic points and they just dust dot every I and cross every t.

EDIT
I wouldn't put too much stock in comparison to the ring of sustenance as that's a legacy item (and one of my favorites) intended for a non mythic game which is a very different power level. Also the sleepless path ability that allows you to not need to sleep does state it doesn't override 24 hour limits whereas this ability doesn't if I remember right.


Rynjin wrote:
bigrig107 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

Yeah no. Abilities do what they say they do. Pretending otherwise is absurd.

There is no "common sense" or "RAI" methods require. The ability does what it says it does. Arguments to the contrary are nonsense.

EDIT: This post was not in response to Dr. Deth

By your own reason (see bold above), it doesn't let you break the 24-hour-period rule.
Bigrig beat me to it.

No, because if it didn't then you couldn't regain spells.


Marthkus wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
bigrig107 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

Yeah no. Abilities do what they say they do. Pretending otherwise is absurd.

There is no "common sense" or "RAI" methods require. The ability does what it says it does. Arguments to the contrary are nonsense.

EDIT: This post was not in response to Dr. Deth

By your own reason (see bold above), it doesn't let you break the 24-hour-period rule.
Bigrig beat me to it.
No, because if it didn't then you couldn't regain spells.

Explain your statement, please?


bigrig107 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
bigrig107 wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

Yeah no. Abilities do what they say they do. Pretending otherwise is absurd.

There is no "common sense" or "RAI" methods require. The ability does what it says it does. Arguments to the contrary are nonsense.

EDIT: This post was not in response to Dr. Deth

By your own reason (see bold above), it doesn't let you break the 24-hour-period rule.
Bigrig beat me to it.
No, because if it didn't then you couldn't regain spells.
Explain your statement, please?

The ability says you regain spells. No general rule limitations would prevent this. That includes any limit imposed upon casting spells within the past 8 hours.

no if ands or buts

You regain your spells. That is what the ability does. Any general rule that would prevent this normally is overwritten.


Thank you Rynjin.

Okay, after doing a little bit of reading, here's what I've gathered.

Normal: Wizards have to rest 8 hours, and then study for 1 hour to gain their spells per day. If they cast any spells within that 8 hour period, (which they can't because that would interrupt their 8 hour rest, it says so specifically. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period.) Those spell slots cannot be refilled.

With a Ring of Sustenance: Wizards have to rest for 2 hours, and then study for 1 hour to gain their spells per day. Any spells cast within the 5 hours prior to the 2 hours of rest + the 1 hour of study time, for a total of 8 hours count against the spell slots to be refilled. Any spell slots used before that can be refilled.

With Mythic Recuperation: He must rest 1 hour, he does not need to study for 1 hour because the ability states: In addition, by expending one use of mythic power and resting for 1 hour, you regain a number of hit points equal to half your full hit points (up to a maximum of your full hit points) and regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on). The daily limit states: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.

So, he will gain spells up to his daily limit, as per the Mythic ability, BUT, that daily limit is reduced by the recent casting limit, because the limit is still there, and the spells per day gained by the mythic ability only allows you to go up to that limit.


That is what I believe they mean.
There just isn't any way, Marthkus, that because it says you regain spells, that this means it breaks any rules/limitations.

There IS a but. And an if. And an and.


Precisely, which is the point Bigrig and I had been trying to make.

he Wizard can prepare spells as often as he pleases, and can recover them in an hour with this Mythic Power.

However, any spells cast within the last 8 hours (technically 7 since he's sleeping for an hour) are flat out unrecoverable per the rules.


Sindalla wrote:
So, he will gain spells up to his daily limit, as per the Mythic ability, BUT, that daily limit is reduced by the recent casting limit, because the limit is still there, and the spells per day gained by the mythic ability only allows you to go up to that limit.

And that is where this is wrong. The ability allows you to regain spells. You are saying that you don't regain some spells depending on the circumstance.

Let's say to you cast all your spells in rapid succession and then take a mythic rest, by your understanding, you would regain NONE of your spells. Which completely contradicts what the ability says.


Sindalla wrote:

With Mythic Recuperation: He must rest 1 hour, he does not need to study for 1 hour because the ability states: In addition, by expending one use of mythic power and resting for 1 hour, you regain a number of hit points equal to half your full hit points (up to a maximum of your full hit points) and regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on).

From PRD: Spell Preparation Time: After resting, a wizard must study his spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If he wants to prepare all his spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of his daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.


To further expand upon my previous post. Spellcasting classes have 2 limits on their spells per day. One limit being the 8 hour recent casting limit, the other being the spells per day listed on the character's class table. (plus the extra gained from high ability scores) The later only being used if the prior criteria isn't met.


Sindalla wrote:


With Mythic Recuperation: He must rest 1 hour, he does not need to study for 1 hour because the ability states: In addition, by expending one use of mythic power and resting for 1 hour, you regain a number of hit points equal to half your full hit points (up to a maximum of your full hit points) and regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on). The daily limit states: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.

So, he will gain spells up to his daily limit, as per the Mythic ability, BUT, that daily limit is reduced by the recent casting limit, because the limit is still there, and the spells per day gained by the mythic ability only allows you to go up to that limit.

You raise another interesting point that I have been toying with. Just another wrench to throw into the mix. By the bold, would that imply, that he could refresh his spells, but not prepare new spells? In effect, a non-spontaneous caster, e.g. Cleric, Druid, etc, would get back the use of his spell slots but still be limited to his prepared spells?

I know, semi-stupid mixed with tangentially warped logic.


I suggest we move this thread to homebrew, where house-rules belong.

You don't get to pretend that abilities do not work the way they say they do and claim RAW.


Marthkus wrote:
Sindalla wrote:
So, he will gain spells up to his daily limit, as per the Mythic ability, BUT, that daily limit is reduced by the recent casting limit, because the limit is still there, and the spells per day gained by the mythic ability only allows you to go up to that limit.

And that is where this is wrong. The ability allows you to regain spells. You are saying that you don't regain some spells depending on the circumstance.

Let's say to you cast all your spells in rapid succession and then take a mythic rest, by your understanding, you would regain NONE of your spells. Which completely contradicts what the ability says.

Well, first of all, any wizard or especially sorcerer who manages to blow through his entire repertoire in such rapid succession:

1)Is stupid
2)Doesn't know to manage his resources
3)Is very impressive

Secondly, Wizards and Sorcerers get more than their spells per day. Let's not forget they get class abilities too that can make them viable combatants even without "spells."


Why would we move it there?
We are trying to get a FAQ on how it works,

Just because you don't agree with how we think it works doesn't mean you're word is RAW.

In fact, that is exactly what RAW means: rules as written.
As written, it doesn't let you overcome that rule.
That's it.


bigrig107 wrote:

In fact, that is exactly what RAW means: rules as written.

As written, it doesn't let you overcome that rule.
That's it.

Just because you don't agree with how it works doesn't mean you're word is RAW.


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Marthkus wrote:
bigrig107 wrote:

In fact, that is exactly what RAW means: rules as written.

As written, it doesn't let you overcome that rule.
That's it.
Just because you don't agree with how it works doesn't mean you're word is RAW.

It does when you repeatedly ignore the second half of teh text in order to make a point.

It does not say "you recover spells".

It says "You recover spells in one hour as if you had rested for 8 hours".

VERY DIFFERENT.


Marthkus wrote:

I suggest we move this thread to homebrew, where house-rules belong.

You don't get to pretend that abilities do not work the way they say they do and claim RAW.

What's non-RAW about:

In addition, by expending one use of mythic power and resting for 1 hour, you regain a number of hit points equal to half your full hit points (up to a maximum of your full hit points) and regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on).

I didn't quote anything there that was my own interpretation. It says you:

PRD wrote:
Regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day.


Rynjin wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
bigrig107 wrote:

In fact, that is exactly what RAW means: rules as written.

As written, it doesn't let you overcome that rule.
That's it.
Just because you don't agree with how it works doesn't mean you're word is RAW.

It does when you repeatedly ignore the second half of teh text in order to make a point.

It does not say "you recover spells".

It says "You recover spells in one hour as if you had rested for 8 hours".

VERY DIFFERENT.

Recuperation (Ex): At 3rd tier, you are restored to full hit points after 8 hours of rest so long as you aren't dead. In addition, by expending one use of mythic power and resting for 1 hour, you regain a number of hit points equal to half your full hit points (up to a maximum of your full hit points) and regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on). This rest is treated as 8 hours of sleep for such abilities. This rest doesn't refresh uses of mythic power or any mythic abilities that are limited to a number of times per day.

Rest: To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The mythic rest counts as 8 hours. The amount of spells casted in the previous 8 hours is 0 for the rest counts as 8 hours.


I can totally see both sides of this argument, now... yikes. I was on the side of verbatim compliance, in which the rules state that your last eight hours worth of casting prevents you from preparing the equivalent slots.

Then I put it into the following, real situation context:

I'm in a dungeon with my party and we just spent the last four hours of game time (counted in rounds, or arbitrary)fighting monsters. We find a safe haven in the form of a room that is hidden and secure. I'm a caster, but I have cast every last spell I had prepared, a fireball being the most recent, one minute ago.

To complicate things, there's a tough monster in the area, looking for us. There's a chance we won't be found. There's also a chance we will, and in our depleted state, not all of us will survive the encounter.

We could rest for eight hours, regain some resources, and head out. If we do, we run the risk of having our rest interrupted by the monster looking for us.

By using one Mythic Point, we can recuperate very quickly. This takes one hour, but in that time, our mythical power-fed bodies are healing and regenerating energies so quickly that we are restored as if we had rested for 8 hours! In just one hour my mind will be clear and fresh and my body will once again be filled with arcane energy and I will be ready to prepare new spells.

Of course, it will take me one full hour after this mythical recuperation to go through my spell book and prepare my full arsenal of spells...

That's about when I realized why there could be an argument.

Rynjin wrote:

It does not say "you recover spells".

It says "You recover spells in one hour as if you had rested for 8 hours".

VERY DIFFERENT.

The rules explain that "the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells." If you are recuperated as if having rested for 8 full hours, then you have effectively recuperated from this drain of resources.

Maybe I'm coming in too late on this. Is this where we are with the debate? In a universal/global sense, only one hour has passed; but the characters have rejuvenated 8 hours worth of time, in which case they should be able to rinse and repeat.

Edit for misspelling.


Grain_of_Salt wrote:
Maybe I'm coming in to late on this. Is this where we are with the debate? In a universal/global sense, only one hour has passed; but the characters have rejuvenated 8 hours worth of time, in which case they should be able to rinse and repeat.

Actually yes, that is exactly where we are.


I'm in favor of the idea of a Wizard potentially getting 500 spells per day (exaggeration of course). I'd love to be a wizard with that many spells, and I typically rule in favor of anything that would help me out. However, in this case, RAW is actually specific. Your RAI is that there is no limit on the number of spells regained, when in fact, within the ability in question says you: Regain the use of any class features that are LIMITED to a certain number of uses per day.


I don't like that idea. Why would I ever play anything else, if I wanted to be the most powerful character? There aren't very many other options.


Sindalla wrote:
I'm in favor of the idea of a Wizard potentially getting 500 spells per day (exaggeration of course). I'd love to be a wizard with that many spells, and I typically rule in favor of anything that would help me out. However, in this case, RAW is actually specific. Your RAI is that there is no limit on the number of spells regained, when in fact, within the ability in question says you: Regain the use of any class features that are LIMITED to a certain number of uses per day.

No the RAW is spells casted in the previous 8 hours count against what you can prepare.

By RAW Mythic recuperation counts as 8 hours of rest for these abilities. Meaning that as far as spells prepared goes, you have not casted any spells within the past 8 hours after using Mythic recuperation to rest for 1 hour. (Since that hour counts as 8 for the purpose of regaining spells)


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Marthkus wrote:
The mythic rest counts as 8 hours. The amount of spells casted in the previous 8 hours is 0 for the rest counts as 8 hours.

It counts as 8 hours OF SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP.

Stop ignoring words because they're inconvenient to you.

It does not advance time by 8 hours. It does not count as if 8 hours HAS PASSED. It counts as 8 hours OF SLEEP.

Just lie a Ring of Sustenance makes 2 hours count as 8 hours OF SLEEP but doesn't allow you to bypass the recent casting limit.


Grain_of_Salt wrote:

I can totally see both sides of this argument, now... yikes. I was on the side of verbatim compliance, in which the rules state that your last eight hours worth of casting prevents you from preparing the equivalent slots.

Then I put it into the following, real situation context:

I'm in a dungeon with my party and we just spent the last four hours of game time (counted in rounds, or arbitrary)fighting monsters. We find a safe haven in the form of a room that is hidden and secure. I'm a caster, but I have cast every last spell I had prepared, a fireball being the most recent, one minute ago.

To complicate things, there's a tough monster in the area, looking for us. There's a chance we won't be found. There's also a chance we will, and in our depleted state, not all of us will survive the encounter.

We could rest for eight hours, regain some resources, and head out. If we do, we run the risk of having our rest interrupted by the monster looking for us.

By using one Mythic Point, we can recuperate very quickly. This takes one hour, but in that time, our mythical power-fed bodies are healing and regenerating energies so quickly that we are restored as if we had rested for 8 hours! In just one hour my mind will be clear and fresh and my body will once again be filled with arcane energy and I will be ready to prepare new spells.

Of course, it will take me one full hour after this mythical recuperation to go through my spell book and prepare my full arsenal of spells...

That's about when I realized why there could be an argument.

Rynjin wrote:

It does not say "you recover spells".

It says "You recover spells in one hour as if you had rested for 8 hours".

VERY DIFFERENT.

The rules explain that "the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells." If you are recuperated as if having rested for 8 full hours, then you have effectively recuperated from this drain of resources.

Maybe I'm coming in too late on this. Is this where we...

I'm pretty sure the recent casting limit was put in place because of the Ring of Sustenance. Which, allows you to prepare spells and stuff after 2 hours of rest, but still doesn't give you the recuperation from the "drain on resources" even though getting 8 hours of sleep in 2 hours is very "recuperative."


It's quite obvious nothing will change your opinion, Marthkus.

I intend to wait on a FAQ, use my ruling, and stop commenting here.

Good day.


Rynjin wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
The mythic rest counts as 8 hours. The amount of spells casted in the previous 8 hours is 0 for the rest counts as 8 hours.

It counts as 8 hours OF SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP.

Stop ignoring words because they're inconvenient to you.

It does not advance time by 8 hours. It does not count as if 8 hours HAS PASSED. It counts as 8 hours OF SLEEP.

Just lie a Ring of Sustenance makes 2 hours count as 8 hours OF SLEEP but doesn't allow you to bypass the recent casting limit.

Hmmm

This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind; its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but this does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.

Looks like the ring specifically says what it can't do. The mythic ability does not.

You know what happens during 8 hours of sleep? 8 hours of time passes.


bigrig107 wrote:

It's quite obvious nothing will change your opinion, Marthkus.

I intend to wait on a FAQ, use my ruling, and stop commenting here.

Good day.

Probably the best strategy for me as well.

*Although I won't be waiting on an FAQ, because there will not be one.


Marthkus,

Both interpretations that are being argued could be RAW, all we are asking is Pathfinder's RAI to clear up the matter.

No one is saying I have changed a rule, only this is how I interpret it. Since there have been no rulings from developers, and currently 35 people have agreed that it is indeed worthy of a FAQ ruling, it is both absurd and somewhat thick skulled to request a move to homebrew of this topic.


Marthkus wrote:

Hmmm

This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind; its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but this does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.

Looks like the ring specifically says what it can't do. The mythic ability does not.

The fact that one thing says specifically "you can't do that" does not mean every other thing can do that.

The rules tell you exactly what each item and spell does. If that is not the intent of the ability, then they should not have worded it the way they worded it.

"It doesn't say I CAN'T" has always been the worst way to read the rules. It's the same reason you can't act while dead just because it doesn't say you can't.

I also sincerely doubt the intent was for a Wizard to be able to prepare his spells as many times a day as he has Mythic Power.

Marthkus wrote:
You know what happens during 8 hours of sleep? 8 hours of time passes.

Normally, yes.

But normally, you sleep for 8 hours.

You are only sleeping for one hour here.

Only one hour has passed.

But bigrig is right, we're going in circles. Currently we've passed the threshold where they normally start looking into stuff (~30 FAQs seems to be that point) so hopefully there will be something.


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Mythic Recuperation allows you to: (by spending a mythic point)

1)Rest for 1 hour.

2)Regain a number of hit points equal to half your full hit points

3)regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day

4)This rest is treated as 8 hours of sleep for such abilities.

Treated meaning the 8 hours of sleep did not actually happen. 8 hours did not pass. Any spells cast within the past 8 hours have still been cast within the past 8 hours. Thus, all the spells cast within the past 8 hours are still part of your daily limit of spells, which mythic recuperation allows you to get back.


Gabriel Albasombria wrote:

Hello everyone:

Im going to run the 3rd volume of WOTR and my characters are now 3rd tier gaining the power "recuperation"

At 3rd tier, you are restored to full hit points after 8 hours of rest so long as you aren't dead. In addition, by expending one use of mythic power and resting for 1 hour, you regain a number of hit points equal to half your full hit points (up to a maximum of your full hit points) and regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on). This rest is treated as 8 hours of sleep for such abilities. This rest doesn't refresh uses of mythic power or any mythic abilities that are limited to a number of times per day.

I see a little overpowered for a spellcaster to rest one hour and get all your spells back (or am i missing something?)

Look what you've started OP, lol


Mulgar wrote:

Marthkus,

Both interpretations that are being argued could be RAW, all we are asking is Pathfinder's RAI to clear up the matter.

No one is saying I have changed a rule, only this is how I interpret it. Since there have been no rulings from developers, and currently 35 people have agreed that it is indeed worthy of a FAQ ruling, it is both absurd and somewhat thick skulled to request a move to homebrew of this topic.

Fair criticism.

I'm afraid I need to stop wasting time trying to convince people that abilities do what they say they do.


Marthkus wrote:
Mulgar wrote:

Marthkus,

Both interpretations that are being argued could be RAW, all we are asking is Pathfinder's RAI to clear up the matter.

No one is saying I have changed a rule, only this is how I interpret it. Since there have been no rulings from developers, and currently 35 people have agreed that it is indeed worthy of a FAQ ruling, it is both absurd and somewhat thick skulled to request a move to homebrew of this topic.

Fair criticism.

I'm afraid I need to stop wasting time trying to convince people that abilities do what they say they do.

No, it's just that some people are so narrow minded that they can only see their point of view. They waste their time trying to enrage people with their arrogance and superiority.


Rynjin wrote:

I can sorta kinda see that, but based on other things in the rules (namely the Ring of Sustenance) I still don't think it was intended to work that way. It's not actually passing the time, it's just making you "sleep faster" basically.

Though it raises an interesting question, does it work on personal time, or universal time?
If universal, you'd actually never be able to recover spells in a Timeless plane.

Sometimes we need to look elsewhere & draw parallels with things that function in a similar fashion. I can see your questions raised by the timelessness of a situation. Also, digging deeper I can draw a parallel with a similar function of a Mythic spell in the effect & how it works by RAW.

TIME STOP
Select a number of creatures equal to half your tier or fewer within close range ( 25 feet + 5 feet per 2 caster levels) .
Mythic time stop has the same effect on these creatures as it does on you , allowing them to act for the same number of rounds of apparent time that you can . You and these creatures can all interact with one another normally while time appears to be stopped .
Augmented (10th): If you expend three uses of mythic power, the duration increases to 1 hour per level of apparent time . You and other affected creatures gain no benefit from rest or sleep while the spell is active .

The sticking point there is that the "sleep" period is apparenttime. By this wording, you can, at level 20, cast a 20 hour time stop & rest as often as you like, with or without Mythic power, & gain no benefit of said rest due to time being universal in this case. Mind you this is a specific rule that plays trumps. Just as the Ring of Sustenance discussion is similar (not identical) to the Recuperation power.

@Mulgar: You are correct, "some people are so narrow minded that they can only see their point of view". Just as there are people who enjoy arguing every single interpretation of a word.

@Marthkus: "I suggest we move this thread to homebrew, where house-rules belong." Why move it to Homebrew. House rules are just that, for the house, decided by the GM & players. The do not need forums to debate such minutia. Most groups I have played with can come to a decision quickly as to the RAI if there is an argument over RAW.

All I can suggest is that we try & remain open-minded. A wise man once told me "use your head as more than a hat rack." Sometimes you have to think outside of the box.


@bigrig: I apologize, I misread your post, you meant that there was no specific rule to even override the general one. I read that as you saying that specific rules do not normally override general rules when they conflict. At the time I had not even formed a solid opinion one way or the other I just didn't agree with your argument... but then I didn't read it right either <sigh> *deletes needless paragraphs*

Now as to the actual rule and how it works. So far as I can tell I agree with everything Tyrannon said here:

Tyrannon wrote:

"This rest is treated as 8 hours of sleep for such

abilities. This rest doesn't refresh uses of mythic power
or any mythic abilities that are limited to a number of
times per day."

In bold. Now, (to play devil's advocate), it does say it counts as 8 hours. Therefore, would that not mean, that since it

counts as counts as 8 hours, it overcomes the "You cannot regain spells you have cast within the last 8 hours."

If so, then the mythic point rest/ recovery counting as 8 hours of rest also clears as it would, by default rest rules

(correct me if I am wrong Rynjin [you do know your rules mate]) the 8 hour recent casting limit?

In italics: This, by RAI (to me only), seems to outline the limitation of the rest. Using my brain to make my mind up &

reading comprehension to understand the intent, this gives the guidelines on what is not covered. Which is anything based off

of Mythic power. Therefore, to me, it would potentially allow the recent casting limit to be overcome.

So to my mind the only real question is was it the intent to allow spell casters to overcome the spells per day barrier or not. That I'm less then certain of. I suspect that by RAW probably not but by RAI maybe. For me I'll probably allow it with my normal caveat which is that you can't sleep when you just aren't tired :)

Consequently, blowing your spells and trying to go back to bed an hour after you got up simply won't work. But that houserules territory so I won't bother going any further into that. I've most been following this thread because I have a group that is mythic tier 2 and wanted to have this fully thought out before they hit tier 3 :)


Revel wrote:

@bigrig: I apologize, I misread your post, you meant that there was no specific rule to even override the general one. I read that as you saying that specific rules do not normally override general rules when they conflict. At the time I had not even formed a solid opinion one way or the other I just didn't agree with your argument... but then I didn't read it right either <sigh> *deletes needless paragraphs*

Now as to the actual rule and how it works. So far as I can tell I agree with everything Tyrannon said here:

Tyrannon wrote:

"This rest is treated as 8 hours of sleep for such

abilities. This rest doesn't refresh uses of mythic power
or any mythic abilities that are limited to a number of
times per day."

In bold. Now, (to play devil's advocate), it does say it counts as 8 hours. Therefore, would that not mean, that since it

counts as counts as 8 hours, it overcomes the "You cannot regain spells you have cast within the last 8 hours."

If so, then the mythic point rest/ recovery counting as 8 hours of rest also clears as it would, by default rest rules

(correct me if I am wrong Rynjin [you do know your rules mate]) the 8 hour recent casting limit?

In italics: This, by RAI (to me only), seems to outline the limitation of the rest. Using my brain to make my mind up &

reading comprehension to understand the intent, this gives the guidelines on what is not covered. Which is anything based off

of Mythic power. Therefore, to me, it would potentially allow the recent casting limit to be overcome.

So to my mind the only real question is was it the intent to allow spell casters to overcome the spells per day barrier or not. That I'm less then certain of. I suspect that by RAW probably not but by RAI maybe. For me I'll probably allow it with my normal caveat which is that you can't sleep when you just aren't tired :)

Consequently, blowing your spells and trying to go back to bed an hour after you got up simply won't work. But that houserules territory so I...

While I love the idea, saying they can't sleep when not tired, unfortunately that won't work. The ability doesn't require you to sleep, as a matter of fact, flavor wise, it rules in favor of those who want it to refresh everything. You only have to "take a break."

To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

Recuperation (Ex)

At 3rd tier, you are restored to full hit points after 8 hours of rest so long as you aren't dead. In addition, by expending one use of mythic power and resting for 1 hour, you regain a number of hit points equal to half your full hit points (up to a maximum of your full hit points) and regain the use of any class features that are limited to a certain number of uses per day (such as barbarian rage, bardic performance, spells per day, and so on). This rest is treated as 8 hours of sleep for such abilities. This rest doesn't refresh uses of mythic power or any mythic abilities that are limited to a number of times per day.


So basically, what are you saing Ryjin is that you prepare the spell at the sunrise like any normal, person. Then, at midday, you spend a mithyc point to regain your spells. But oh wait you already gained your spells once this day. So no spell for you. That would be like first print prone shooter round 2.
Whatever the hell do you think the RAW is (and i'm still not agreeing with you) is pretty damn clear what the rule actually means.

Liberty's Edge

"If you have rested for 8 hours" also implies "you have rested for the past 8 hours, not casting any spells during that time." Hence the whole "spells cast in the past 8 hours lower your allotment" wouldn't have any effect.

Liberty's Edge

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I hit FAQ and agree this is unclear. Personally, I lean towards the not getting everything back side of things (this can lead to some stacking of buffs issues on 10 min/level or longer spells), but think the difference is small in practical terms. The reason why is if the group can afford to sit around for an hour (two with memorizing new spells) then they might as well be sitting around for eight hours in most situations. Both cases involve the group being able to rest peacefully for an extended period of time which can be easily interrupted.

Since generally everyone in the group has this same ability it is easy for a GM to plan around this for time critical situations. Instead of having a few days to stop the evil wizard from opening the gates to hell you only have a few hours. Personally, I think the later is much more exciting than having a group laze about for an entire day because they are out of juice when the world is about to end.

If the intent is to completely restore all spells, then I would probably houserule that any ongoing spells count against the daily limit to prevent stacking though.


The_Hanged_Man wrote:


If the intent is to completely restore all spells, then I would probably houserule that any ongoing spells count against the daily limit to prevent stacking though.

Do you have the same rule for extended 1/hour per level spells? What about spells with 1/day or longer effects?

I dont agree with your reading but i do agree if the dm is giving players 2 hours to sit round unmolested he is doing something wrong and might as well just let them take 8

As for buff stacking i cant really think of any that would be particulary unbalanced and my wizard in wotr rarely casts more then one or spell per encounter anyway and most nights goes to sleep with atleast 2 of his higher level spells anyway unless we fought a "boss" that day most of my rounds are spent throwing out a magic missle from a wand or simply cheering on the fighters


So I finally got around to reading this, and it would seem to me a fairly tortured reading would be required to argue casters don't get their spells back. Sounds like prepared casters would still need to prepare, though, but the sleep & spell slots stuff looks open and shut. It's basically a 1 MP = behave as though it's tomorrow for non-Mythic stuff. Really, this is he kind of argument that holds you can't blow all your MP after noon on Monday and then do the same thing before noon on Tuesday.

As far as stacking magic goes, I don't think players using this would complain too loudly if ongoing magical effects (that don't last through 8 hours of normal sleep) don't last through this, either. Explain it away as entering some sort of restful Mythic state if you like. Besides, a full hour of rest is still pretty much impossible in a truly threatening area. If it gets really bad, there are plenty of low CR encounters that can't be completely ignored (the distraction would probably disrupt rest, anyway).

If this is the Mythic power you're worried about, you ain't seen nothing yet.

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