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So guys...the 20th level ninja's ability "Hidden Master"...how does it work?
Some people say that you can't be detected. Full stop. No matter what or how good your senses are.
Some people including me, think that since the text says "...as a standard action, cast greater invisibility on herself. While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her...", the ninja's ability is just a better version of Greater invisibility, which doesn't make you stop smelling, or doesn't makes you mass-less.
Who's right?
"Cannot be detected by any means" would mean that they are incapable of being detected by anyone using anything that could be used to detect them. Additionally, not even spells that usually work against invisible things can work against them. RAW is quite clear; they could dance a waltz through a waste deep water and not cause a ripple that anyone would notice.
Also, that's a pile of crazy-talk because you could argue that they don't breath in poisonous gas because that could be detected. Or that they could scream and punch walls and dance on top screamers and nothing would happen. You can't even talk to your party members and they won't feel your touch if you grab their arm... That's not reasonable or considerable.
I'd say it makes you undetectable by means normally capable of pinpointing an invisible foe. For example, scent. However, you still make noise when you walk and talk, you still disturb water or smoke, you still make screamers scream if you step on them, you still set off traps, etc.
Otherwise they could have said the ability makes you follow the incorporeal rules regarding interaction with other stuff.
Hmm, that does pose a question. It feels like the power should be something that makes you invisible to sight, immune to normal anti-invisibility abilities, and otherwise impossible to locate. But does that mean it suppresses life sense? How about detect good/evil? There are probably a dozen different abilities that can find you without normal senses.
I'd say this is probably for the Rules forum and some FAQ needs to be done up on it asking what kinds of senses are meant to be blocked by the power. Is it just greater invisibility + immunity to the three traditional anti-invisibility spells mentioned or is it more than that?
It's a 20th level ability. I don't feel it's unreasonable to let it be what is RAW.
You can't detect them. If they touch you, you know you were touched but can't tell where they are standing. If they hit you, you get hit but don't know for sure where they are standing.
For me, RAI I think it is the same as RAW. You have to wait for 20th level to get it, it's the classes ultimate power...you are undetectable.
Consider it a Level 9 version of greater invisibility. Then decide if that's to powerful. After all Level 9 spells include Wish.
Level 20 Fighters ALWAYS confirm crits, and CANNOT be disarmed.
Level 20 Paladins get a pretty powerful banishment, with saves over 30, and ALWAYS heal the max possible with lay on hands.
Level 20 Rangers can ALWAYS move at full speed using survival to follow tracks WITHOUT penalty. Also they get a pretty good save or die or save or go unconscious attack.
Ninja's go invisible, and cannot be detected. You can still try to hit where you think they are, but true seeing won't let the wizard pinpoint their location and say, ATTACK THAT SQUARE!
I go the other way kind of...
They cant be detected by anything but normal things still make sounds. for instance if the ninja heard foot loose and just had to punch dance you could not see him but if he failed his stealth check you could hear him working off his teenage anxt. but you could not detect his delicate yet angry foot rhythms with tremor sense. and his scent wouldn't register as any thing other than the smell of pure gymnastic awesomeness
I go the other way kind of...
They cant be detected by anything but normal things still make sounds. for instance if the ninja heard foot loose and just had to punch dance you could not see him but if he failed his stealth check you could hear him working off his teenage anxt. but you could not detect his delicate yet angry foot rhythms with tremor sense. and his scent wouldn't register as any thing other than the smell of pure gymnastic awesomeness
I agree. It doesn't say you can't hear him. And neither does Greater Invisibility. You might know he is around. You just won't know EXACTLY where he is.
Cue the scary suspensful music...
I wonder about Hidden Master as well.
The way it is written even creatures with Blindsense and Blindsight can't detect them. Not sure if Paizo intended Hidden Master to apply to magical forms of detection, but as written it applies to everything.
It is a lvl 20 ability. I'm ok with it being this powerful.
This is completely irrelevant to RAW, but might paint a clearer picture of RAI. The PF Ninja has several abilities that very closely mirror the D&D 3.5 Ninja. In 3.5 the Ninja's Vanishing Trick didn't turn into a Greater Invisibility. Instead, when it increased in power from simple invisibility, the Ninja would become Ethereal. They gained another ability that allowed them to be able to strike creatures on the material plane normally while remaining Ethereal. At 20th level they gained the ability to use Ethereal Jaunt to remain ethereal for a longer period of time. PF Ninjas have nearly the same abilities but replace the Ethereal upgrade with an upgrade to Greater Invisibility. However, the PF Ninja is a definite throw back to the 3.5 Ninja and most of the abilities work very similarly. In that light, reading the Ninja's capstone ability, I tend to think RAW and RAI are exactly what the ability says.
Hidden Master (Su): At 20th level, a ninja becomes a true master of her art. She can, as a standard action, cast greater invisibility on herself. While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her. She uses her ninja level as her caster level for this ability. Using this ability consumes 3 ki points from her ki pool. In addition, whenever the ninja deals sneak attack damage, she can sacrifice additional damage dice to apply a penalty to one ability score of the target equal to the number of dice sacrificed for 1 minute. This penalty does not stack with itself and cannot reduce an ability score below 1.
That "and" I emphasized could be important, it may show an intent to separate two related ideas, like saying:
1) While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means. Additionally, not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her.
If they had wanted it to be just a slightly better version of Greater Invisibility it should have been written like this:
2) While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by normal means, things like invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her.
I am not certain, but it is certainly possible that the and, along side the strong similarities to the 3.5 Ninja ability, were a deliberate attempt to make the Ninja utterly undetectable, while using that ability, without completely plagiarizing the 3.5 version of the class.