White Haired Witch


Advice


I absolutely love the flavor of the White Haired Witch archetype, and I want to make a character that utilizes the hair as the main focus!

But... Well, when you take a look at it, it's a pretty rotten archetype, huh? You lose all your hexes and turn a low-BAB class into something physical. It'd be one thing if the Int bonus added to your physical attacks with your hair too, but sadly it only adds to damage and grapples made with the hair. With a lack of armor proficiency and spell failure being a reason not to invest in armor proficiency, it's squishy too. Dipping monk and adding in Wis helps, but spreads the stats too thin. And finally, with no bonus feats, the White Haired Witch will have to dip to attempt to be any kind of threat. Which is a shame, because the coolest part about the hair is the length added every 4 levels. With a level 12 soft cap, that's not so great.

So, I'm looking at a Str/Int heavy build at the very least (Or Dex/Int if I were to go with weapon finesse). But I don't really know where to go from there. I've mixed and matched it with a few options and haven't found a way to make it even viable. I'm not looking to turn the White Haired Witch into some incredible master on the board, but I'd like to, at the very least, make a PLAYABLE character that won't be a detriment to my party. I would prefer to get at least 8 levels of White Haired Witch in, but I'm willing to settle with a minimum of 4 for the sake of it being usable.

Could I get a bit of help working this out? My google-fu was weak and I couldn't find any build information that didn't use non-PFS material or bent/disregarded the rules, and I'm just having a hard timing coming up with anything that'll make it work.


Is this for PFS? Your best bet for a "white-haired witch" in PFS is to make a witch with white hair, and take the prehensile hair hex, and maybe some levels in Lore Warden fighter to get maneuver feats.

Plus, you'll actually be a viable witch.

Quote:
My google-fu was weak and I couldn't find any build information that didn't use non-PFS material or bent/disregarded the rules, and I'm just having a hard timing coming up with anything that'll make it work.

That's because there isn't any.

Seriously. It's a horrible archetype. If they had made it work like prehensile hair, where everything goes off Int, it would be bad but not unusable. If it didn't lose all hexes, it would be bad but not unusable. If it gave combat feats instead of rogue talents, it would be bad but not unusable.

5/5 for flavor, 0/5 for functionality.


It's not that horrible actually. The "trip" and "pull" options are a bit useless, though. You basically just want to grab opponents and constrict.

The white-haired witch's hair is definitely better than the prehensile hair hex, although it doesn't get the witch's Int modifier to attack rolls.
But the damage is better and it includes the free grapple.

I'd suggest going for a Dex build and picking Weapon Finesse as your first feat. This also helps you build up a better AC.
You can then also go for at least 4 levels with the Agility Patron (I wouldn't take more than 4. The additional abilities are quite useless).
Speaking of AC, you have access to Mage armor, so don't worry about that.

You should add some other classes. Here are some options:

- Alchemist: Gives you access to Mutagen, Cat's Grace as a 2nd level extract (which means you don't neccessarily need the Agility patron), and bombs (which also use Dex for attacks and Int for damage). Grappling an opponent and then covering him with bombs, doesn't that sound like fun?

- Fighter: Take the Weapon Master archetype (choosing your hair as the mastered weapon), this will give you quick bonuses to attack and damage, bonus feats, and access to Weapon Specialization. (you actually just need 4 levels for the specialization since this archetype gains Weapon Training at 3rd level).

- Monk: As you already pointed out, this would help with AC and grant Evasion at 2nd level. Take the Feral Combat Training feat and you can also flurry with your hair.
The downside, as you already mentioned, is you'll have to focus on a third ability score.

Scarab Sages

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I am currently playing a Tetori Monk that will dip two levels of White Haired Witch. Since the Hair has constrict, this allows you to take Final Embrace in order to get constrict on everything. It also gives you the ability to grapple three opponents at once with the Hair and Snapping Turtle Style. Access to Enlarge Person is a bonus for grapplers, and give you more reach on the hair.


Hexcrafter Magus, two level dip into WHW = Fun and japes...


Really the big appeal from White Haired Witch is that you can grapple with the hair without gaining the grappled condition. However that's just not big enough to offset the downsides. I fiddled around in Hero Lab for a while trying to make a build I would consider viable. I failed.


Cardinal Chunder wrote:
Hexcrafter Magus, two level dip into WHW = Fun and japes...

I second this. A Magus with 3/4ths BAB & Prehensile Hair basically captures the "Bayonetta" concept I was trying to convert for funsies a while back. The WHW is just an up and up false option.


Abnormi the White Haired Witch

Patron: Transformation (access to Beast Shape Spells)

S: 15 D: 16 C: 14 I: 16 W: 8 Ch: 8 (20 pt basic teifling)

Alternate Racial Traits:
- Claws
- Prehensile Tail
- Scaled Skin

Feats:
Toughness (1st)
Arcane Strike (3rd)

1st level:

1x hair +2 to hit for 1d4+3 damage
1x claw +2 to hit for 1d4+2 damage
1x claw +2 to hit for 1d4+2 damage

3rd level:

- Alter Self into a Trogolodyte for bite/claw/claw and +2 size bonus STR
- 17 STR = 15 base + 2 size
- +1 damage from Arcane Strike

1x hair +4 to hit for 1d4+4 damage
1x bite +4 to hit for 1d4+4 damage
1x claw +4 to hit for 1d4+4 damage
1x claw +4 to hit for 1d4+4 damage

5th level:

- Alter Self into a Trogolodyte for bite/claw/claw and +2 size bonus STR
- Vermin Shape I into nifty things with +2 size bonus STR and +3 natural armor
- 18 STR = 16 base + 2 size
- +2 damage from Arcane Strike
- buy an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1

1x hair +7 to hit for 1d4+6 damage
1x bite +7 to hit for 1d4+7 damage
1x claw +7 to hit for 1d4+7 damage
1x claw +7 to hit for 1d4+7 damage

7th level:

- Beast Shape II into a Lion for bite/claw/claw and +4 size bonus STR plus pounce
- 24 STR = 16 base + 4 size +2 enhancement
- +2 damage from Arcane Strike
- buy Belt of STR +2

1x hair +11 to hit for 1d4+6 damage
1x bite +11 to hit for 1d8+10 damage
1x claw +11 to hit for 1d6+10 damage
1x claw +11 to hit for 1d6+10 damage

**************************

The basic strategy would be to add primary natural attacks. You can make up for a lot of damage by hitting multiple times. Damage Reduction will be your bane.

Use long lasting buffs like Mage Armor, False Life, Threefold Aspect (for +2 DEX/CON), Heroism, etc. This will help you to only need 1 round to cast your polymorph buff before entering combat. Even without the polymorph spell, you'll still have three attacks.

Your defenses won't be great, but the polymorph spells will add back a bit of AC.


Thanks for all the speedy responses!

The way I'm reading the hair's grapple, you can only do it without gaining the grappled condition after a successful hit. I'm not sure you could even initiate a normal grapple, and if you could then you wouldn't get your int bonus. This is how it reads:

"In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action* without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition."

What that tells me is that the int bonus only applies if you make the grapple as a result of the attack, and you only neglect the grappled condition if you grapple as a result of the attack.

If you can grapple normally with your hair, this changes some things.

I'm not familiar with the Tetori monk, but I took a look and I don't see where that archetype lets you grapple 3 foes at once.

The Magus looks pretty feat starved in my opinion, although the thought of using Feral Combat Training + Hex Strike looks tasty.

That natural attack build looks pretty great actually! I would deem that a success for the WHW, but probably not what I would want to run since it's not really the flavor I'm looking for.

I'm currently playing with a Maneuver Master/Lore Warden/White Haired Witch build that uses the Jawbreaker line of feats that I think might work. I'll post that once I can figure it out (if I can figure it out haha).


Rorrix wrote:

That natural attack build looks pretty great actually! I would deem that a success for the WHW, but probably not what I would want to run since it's not really the flavor I'm looking for.

What flavor or key points are you looking for? Was it the polymorphing that was not preferred? Or is it that you want to focus on combat manuevers with it?


Rorrix wrote:


I'm not familiar with the Tetori monk, but I took a look and I don't see where that archetype lets you grapple 3 foes at once.

They can spend Ki to gain the Grab ability, and monks can attack with any part of their body, so a Tetori can headbutt you, and grab you with their forehead somehow.

I concur with others that Hexcrafter Magus/White Haired Witch is the better combo. There is nothing in RAW that makes the White Haired Witch's White Hair supernatural ability mutually exclusive with the Prehensile Hair Hex (which a White Haired Witch can't usually take, but a Hexcrafter Magus can).

You should also be able to use Spell Combat with your hair.

Scarab Sages

Rorrix wrote:

I'm not familiar with the Tetori monk, but I took a look and I don't see where that archetype lets you grapple 3 foes at once.

It's not the Tetori that lets you grapple three foes at once, but the combination of Snapping Turtle Clutch, your hair as a natural weapon with Feral Combat Training, and Final Embrace.

Round one: There are three enemies(x) standing in a line five feet apart.

x_x_x

You(M) win initiative and move between the enemies on the left and middle, using acrobatics to avoid AoOs:

xMx_x

You standard action grapple the enemy in the middle, and are successful. Your constrict triggers to damage. You free action let go with one hand and end your turn.

The opponent on the left attacks you and misses, and you spend an immediate action to grapple him per Snapping Turtle Clutch. This has a -6 penalty due to the feat description and only using one hand, but as a tetori your grapple is likely at +20, so it's still likely to succeed. IT also applies constrict damage from Final Embrace. Two foes grappled.

The opponent on the right moves towards you to attack, but your hair has reach, so it's movement provokes an AoO. You hit it with your hair, and as you have Grab through Final Embrace, you can grapple on the AoO as a free action, overriding the grab from the Hair special ability, getting to three foes locked down.

Dark Archive

Rory wrote:

Abnormi the White Haired Witch

Patron: Transformation (access to Beast Shape Spells)

S: 15 D: 16 C: 14 I: 16 W: 8 Ch: 8 (20 pt basic teifling)

Alternate Racial Traits:
- Claws
- Prehensile Tail
- Scaled Skin

Feats:
Toughness (1st)
Arcane Strike (3rd)

1st level:

1x hair +2 to hit for 1d4+3 damage
1x claw +2 to hit for 1d4+2 damage
1x claw +2 to hit for 1d4+2 damage

3rd level:

- Alter Self into a Trogolodyte for bite/claw/claw and +2 size bonus STR
- 17 STR = 15 base + 2 size
- +1 damage from Arcane Strike

1x hair +4 to hit for 1d4+4 damage
1x bite +4 to hit for 1d4+4 damage
1x claw +4 to hit for 1d4+4 damage
1x claw +4 to hit for 1d4+4 damage

5th level:

- Alter Self into a Trogolodyte for bite/claw/claw and +2 size bonus STR
- Vermin Shape I into nifty things with +2 size bonus STR and +3 natural armor
- 18 STR = 16 base + 2 size
- +2 damage from Arcane Strike
- buy an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1

1x hair +7 to hit for 1d4+6 damage
1x bite +7 to hit for 1d4+7 damage
1x claw +7 to hit for 1d4+7 damage
1x claw +7 to hit for 1d4+7 damage

7th level:

- Beast Shape II into a Lion for bite/claw/claw and +4 size bonus STR plus pounce
- 24 STR = 16 base + 4 size +2 enhancement
- +2 damage from Arcane Strike
- buy Belt of STR +2

1x hair +11 to hit for 1d4+6 damage
1x bite +11 to hit for 1d8+10 damage
1x claw +11 to hit for 1d6+10 damage
1x claw +11 to hit for 1d6+10 damage

**************************

The basic strategy would be to add primary natural attacks. You can make up for a lot of damage by hitting multiple times. Damage Reduction will be your bane.

Use long lasting buffs like Mage Armor, False Life, Threefold Aspect (for +2 DEX/CON), Heroism, etc. This will help you to only need 1 round to cast your polymorph buff before entering combat. Even without the polymorph spell, you'll still have three attacks.

Your defenses won't be great, but the polymorph spells will add back a bit of AC.

Trogolodytes don't have hair and shapechanging into one removes your hair, and unlike the prehensile hair hex the white hair ability doesn't give you the ability to grow hair.

Pick a different form.


There are several problems with the WHW... namely that, as written, it doesnt get INT to hit, but only for damage... which is screwy.

Scarab Sages

williamoak wrote:
There are several problems with the WHW... namely that, as written, it doesnt get INT to hit, but only for damage... which is screwy.

True, but that makes it better for a dip from a maneuver-based class that doesn't have much use for int, like Monk, Fighter, or Barbarian. I like Tetori monk the most, but anything that is focused on maneuvers or natural attacks can get a lot out of one or two levels for an always on natural weapon with reach.


Just the polymorphing/claws in general. I'm looking at something more human for my character specifically, but that's absolutely a viable build.

And wow, the Tetori monk does look pretty sweet with that in mind! I think the only hiccup is that you said you'd only be taking 2 levels in WHW, and it requires at least 4 to get the 10 foot reach to pull off the encounter described. Still doable since you get Grab at Tetori level 8, but that means you wouldn't get it off until level 12.


Here's a build that goes WHW and Sohei monk into eldritch knight. Its pretty sweet especially considering that you can get into EK a lot earlier now.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dvDRSXWqnO4CebgMmD8P-nU94wXL_2qWE3n5TTF TzOQ/edit?pli=1

Scarab Sages

Actually, you are getting Grab from Final Embrace, which you can take as early as level 5 if you take Monk 3/WHW 2. Good point about needing level 4 for reach though.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Trogolodytes don't have hair and shapechanging into one removes your hair, and unlike the prehensile hair hex the white hair ability doesn't give you the ability to grow hair.

Pick a different form.

The White Haired Witch archetype doesn't list as a requirement that the archetype can only be taken by a mammal. As far as I know, the white haired witch archetype can be taken by a tengu, trogolodyte, or even a skeletal champion.

If this causes an issue with you or your GM, work with him/her. Pick another form other than trogolodyte when using Alter Self. Or don't pick a form and just stick with the 3 base attacks until 5th level.

This is not a critical point to the build at all.


Rorrix wrote:
I'm looking at something more human for my character specifically,

I think others have answered quite well for a witch "dip" version.

That sounds like what you wanted instead of a straight white haired witch.

If you were wanting a straight witch as a human only without the best melee tricks for the witch... that's a lot tougher!

Dark Archive

Rory wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Trogolodytes don't have hair and shapechanging into one removes your hair, and unlike the prehensile hair hex the white hair ability doesn't give you the ability to grow hair.

Pick a different form.

The White Haired Witch archetype doesn't list as a requirement that the archetype can only be taken by a mammal. As far as I know, the white haired witch archetype can be taken by a tengu, trogolodyte, or even a skeletal champion.

If this causes an issue with you or your GM, work with him/her. Pick another form other than trogolodyte when using Alter Self. Or don't pick a form and just stick with the 3 base attacks until 5th level.

This is not a critical point to the build at all.

It falls under they design that uses a human as the base for all abilities in the game (barring some monster feats) and since humans have hair it's not stated that you need it. Since the power is explicit that you use your existing hair as the source of the power if you don't have it it doesn't work for you (as written). From the polymorph rules of the game (which alter self falls under) takes away the power you are trying to base this build on.

Quote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.

Using ANY polymorph affect takes away your white hair ability and ALL your class abilities that you get from it.

It is one of the many, MANY flaws with this archetype.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Quote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.

Using ANY polymorph affect takes away your white hair ability and ALL your class abilities that you get from it.

It is one of the many, MANY flaws with this archetype.

Now that is a much better discussion point. This, I think, breaks it.

Kudos! And thanks!

EDIT: I started to wonder what other things this would effect, so I did a little digging. I only looked at the APG and UM witch hexes, but I'm sure there is much more.

- Cackle (SU): requires voice
- Charm (SU): requires voice
- Evil Eye (SU): requires vision
- Tongues (SU): requires voice to speak and ears to hear
- Child-Scent (EX): requires scent sense
- Feral Speech (SU): requires voice to speak and ears to hear
- Nails (EX): requires hands
- Prehensile Hair (SU): requires hair
- Water Lung (SU): requires lungs to sleep with it

A human witch that cast Alter Self to change into a half-elf, technically, should lose the ability to use the above hexes.

To me, that's taking it a little too far. If the polymorphed shape has the ability to speak, see, hear, and has the same used appendages be they hands or hair, then the SU and EX abilities should work in the new form.

However, that is sounding like a custom rule and not the RAW like I thought it was. Live and learn.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Quote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.

After more digging, the above quote was not complete.

Here is the whole paragraph (the bolded part was the part left out):

Quote:

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

If the new form possesses eyes, ears, nose, arms, voice, hair, etc., then the polymorphed form "might" have the SU and EX abilities of the original form. This includes the White Haired Witch archetype using hair.

It is GM's choice.

Is there any GM that wouldn't allow a witch to Alter Self into a trogolodyte and use Evil Eye? Or into a lion and use the mane for the White Hair Witch abilities?


OK, here's a kind of funky version which might work. The idea here is to tag the target with the hair and grapple it (you have to hit before you grapple of course since it is grab). Once the target is grappled, you can cast touch spells on the target and since they are grappled they don't get AOOs so you're safe.

It could be optimized better, but it's a neat idea IMO.

Hair Trap:

Witch
Male Aasimar Eldritch Knight 9/Fighter 1/Witch (White Haired Witch) 1
NG Medium outsider (native)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +20
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+9 armor, +1 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 90 (10d10+1d6+22)
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +8
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee slam +19 (1d4+10) and
. . unarmed strike +16/+11 (1d3+6)
Special Attacks white hair
Spell-Like Abilities
. . 1/day—daylight
Witch (White Haired Witch) Spells Prepared (CL 9th; concentration +14):
5th—major curse (DC 20), teleport
4th—dimension door, enervation, touch of slime (DC 19)
3rd—bestow curse (DC 18), bestow curse (DC 18), fly, heroism
2nd—disfiguring touch (DC 17), see invisibility, touch of idiocy, touch of idiocy, vomit swarm
1st—chill touch (DC 16), chill touch (DC 16), chill touch (x3) (DC 16), enlarge person (DC 16)
0 (at will)—dancing lights, detect magic, stabilize, touch of fatigue (DC 15)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 11, Cha 9
Base Atk +10; CMB +13 (+18 grapple); CMD 27 (29 vs. grapple)
Feats Arcane Armor Mastery, Arcane Armor Training, Dodge, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (grapple), Weapon Focus (other melee natural attack), Weapon Specialization (other melee natural attack)
Traits defender of the society, seeker
Skills Climb +3, Diplomacy +1, Fly +10, Knowledge (arcana) +15, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +15, Knowledge (engineering) +9, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (nature) +15, Knowledge (planes) +15, Perception +20, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +18, Survival +7, Swim +4; Racial Modifiers +2 Diplomacy, +2 Perception
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Osiriani, Sylvan, Varisian
SQ patron spells (time)
Other Gear +3 comfort mithral agile breastplate, amulet of mighty fists +3, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +3, headband of vast intelligence +2, ring of protection +1, 8600 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Armor Mastery Swift action: -20% arcane spell failure due to armor.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defender of the Society +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Energy Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Familiar Bonus: +4 bonus on initiative checks You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Greater Grapple Maintaining a grapple is a move action, allowing you to make 2 checks a round.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
White Hair (Grab) (Su) Use hair to grapple foe without gaining grappled condition. More at higher levels.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Using ANY polymorph affect takes away your white hair ability and ALL your class abilities that you get from it.
It is one of the many, MANY flaws with this archetype.

So if we take this to a logical extreme, a human who shaved off all their body hair can't be a white haired witch? Or at least grow hair?

Or any race that lacks body hair?

I'll let something slip. I personally, am caring less and less for "RAW." Or even "RAI." I'd care more for RAI, but I have trouble understanding what they intended. And why they intended it.

Not sure I am going to run a PF game anytime soon, but if I do, and someone wants to play one, attacks or maneuvers with the hair are going to be at caster level, int will add to attack and damage, and they are going to start with 5' more reach, so it is as good as the prehensile hair hex out of the box.

And let's get real with the maneuvers. You'll use trip and whatnot a little in the lower levels, and at higher ones if you happen to face a medium size caster type. Otherwise you are going to be using it for utility and constrict only. Since it is low risk for you to try one though, eh maybe you will try to trip the impossible, per se, later on.

So my version of the White Witch is going to have a hex progression. I'll probably drop the hexes gained at 2 and 4, then pick it up as normal. My version will never get Rogue Talents.

Now I don't expect anyone to respond. But what exactly did the devs have in mind when they made this archetype, considering how they nerfed it structurally?

Dark Archive

drbuzzard wrote:

OK, here's a kind of funky version which might work. The idea here is to tag the target with the hair and grapple it (you have to hit before you grapple of course since it is grab). Once the target is grappled, you can cast touch spells on the target and since they are grappled they don't get AOOs so you're safe.

It could be optimized better, but it's a neat idea IMO.

** spoiler omitted **...

Unfortunately that doesn't work either after you grab the target you still have to maintain the grapple the next round which eats up your standard action so no spellcasting (unless it's quickened/swift) and no attacking either.

@sunbeam, if your characters head gets completely shaved then nope, no white hair for you (the prehensile hair hex allows you to GROW hair so that one would work fine). And I have no problem with this, the hair is the source of the power and like biblical Samson, you lose the hair you lose the power until it grows back.

@Rory, which is why I only mentioned the Trogolodyte and hair. Everything else falls down to GM call and that is impossible to determine. A hairless lizard trying to use hair for an attack is an easy one to understand.
Also as I quoted it only limits abilities that are dependent on FORM and only the white hair ability is dependent on that. The other abilities either have no specific form requirement or have language in them that allows them to grow the needed part (claws, hair, third eye, etc) so aren't restricted.
This is the only archetype/witch ability in the game that has a form dependent restriction making this one of the WORST archetypes in the game.

I spent a week working over this archetype for my witch guide and could find NOTHING to make it work.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Also as I quoted it only limits abilities that are dependent on FORM and only the white hair ability is dependent on that. The other abilities either have no specific form requirement or have language in them that allows them to grow the needed part (claws, hair, third eye, etc) so aren't restricted.

Evil Eye is a SU ability. It requires that you be able to see the victim. If you polymorph into a form that can't see, then you can't use Evil Eye in that form.

Therefore, Evil Eye is just as much a form dependent SU ability as the White Haired Witch hair.

I think we shall have to agree to disagree. That's okay. I do appreciate the discussion.

Perhaps the polymorph trick could make a valuable addition to your guide. You could quote the "might" bit of RAW, and to "Check with your GM". It sounds like you were dead set against it from the start though, so probably not.

***********************************

Evil Eye (Su): The witch can cause doubt to creep into the mind of a foe within 30 feet that she can see. The target takes a –2 penalty on one of the following (witch's choice): AC, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. This hex lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the witch's Intelligence modifier. A Will save reduces this to just 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect. At 8th level the penalty increases to –4.

Dark Archive

Rory wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Also as I quoted it only limits abilities that are dependent on FORM and only the white hair ability is dependent on that. The other abilities either have no specific form requirement or have language in them that allows them to grow the needed part (claws, hair, third eye, etc) so aren't restricted.

Evil Eye is a SU ability. It requires that you be able to see the victim. If you polymorph into a form that can't see, then you can't use Evil Eye in that form.

Therefore, Evil Eye is just as much a form dependent SU ability as the White Haired Witch hair.

I think we shall have to agree to disagree. That's okay. I do appreciate the discussion.

Perhaps the polymorph trick could make a valuable addition to your guide. You could quote the "might" bit of RAW, and to "Check with your GM". It sounds like you were dead set against it from the start though, so probably not.

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Evil Eye (Su): The witch can cause doubt to creep into the mind of a foe within 30 feet that she can see. The target takes a –2 penalty on one of the following (witch's choice): AC, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. This hex lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the witch's Intelligence modifier. A Will save reduces this to just 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect. At 8th level the penalty increases to –4.

There is nothing in the description of Evil Eye that states you have to have eyes, it only states you have to see them. Since there are half a dozen ways to see a target without eyes it doesn't fall under the Form limitation.

White Hair (SU) specifies that you must use your hair to use the power which does fall under the form limitation.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
drbuzzard wrote:

OK, here's a kind of funky version which might work. The idea here is to tag the target with the hair and grapple it (you have to hit before you grapple of course since it is grab). Once the target is grappled, you can cast touch spells on the target and since they are grappled they don't get AOOs so you're safe.

It could be optimized better, but it's a neat idea IMO.

** spoiler omitted **...

Unfortunately that doesn't work either after you grab the target you still have to maintain the grapple the next round which eats up your standard action so no spellcasting (unless it's quickened/swift) and no attacking either.

False.

Greater Grapple (Combat)
Maintaining a grapple is second nature to you.

Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6, Dex 13.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

Normal: Maintaining a grapple is a standard action.

With that feat you are able to maintain the grapple and drop spells on them at the same time. Of course it's not possible before BAB 6, but it is possible.


Hexes depend on level for effectiveness, so if your planning on a dip or to prestige class they loose a lot of their luster. I'm putting together a guide on eldritch knight, and came up with the idea of the glam rocker, a fighter/white hair witch/eldritch knight combination. This build will have enough BAB to make grapple and trip viable (if not optimal), and when it could it would enlarge person, grapple (at reach), trip, use enlarged reach to beat helpless opponent like a Pinata with your great sword.

Dual talent Human (Str, Int)

Starting Stats
Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Levels 1 Witch
Feat: Combat Expertise

Level 2 Fighter
Feat: Power attack

Levels 3 - 6 Witch
Feat: Improved Trip
Feat: Combat Reflexes
Ability +1 Int

Level 7 - 12 Eldritch Knight
Feat: Weapon Focus Great Sword (or whatever)
Feat: Greater Trip
Feat: Weapon Spec Great sword
Ability +1 int
Ability +1 int

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