Global Organized Play Coordinator
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The other thing I've noticed is that the staunchest opponents to replaying for no credit—yourselves and others—all come from a background where replaying has never been allowed in PFS. And in most cases have seen first hand where replaying for credit has destroyed previous OP campaigns. Because of this, I think any argument I can make in support of replaying for no credit is going to have it's work cut out for it. I...
Quick correction, Walter. When I first started playing, you could play every scenario five times for credit, one time for a character in each faction. There was replay allowed. Those extra replays didn't enhance gameplay. It detracted from it.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Quick correction, Walter. When I first started playing, you could play every scenario five times for credit. There was replay allowed.
The other thing I've noticed is that the staunchest opponents to replaying for no credit—yourselves and others—all come from a background where replaying has never been allowed in PFS. And in most cases have seen first hand where replaying for credit has destroyed previous OP campaigns. Because of this, I think any argument I can make in support of replaying for no credit is going to have it's work cut out for it. I...
Whoah nelly! I'm guessing it was once per faction?
Follow up, how long did that last? Haha :)
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Actually, I believe what Drogon is saying is that if 5 people want to sit down and get no credit for The Waking Rune fifteen times, there is nothing stopping that.Thanks, but then this doesn't address a good way to proceed when there's one odd man out.
Recruit a few wandering customers and run a BB demo or quest.
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Hope I'm not coming off as crappy (seriously, not my intention), nosig, but you are talking to someone who did have this problem and stopped playing as a consequence. I'm starting to feel like you're reading what I'm saying, responding with something that's been said, and then asking for other people for different opinions =\ (allow me to stress again that I'm not trying to be rude).
Also:
Recruit a few wandering customers and run a BB demo or quest.
A cool idea, thank you.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Actually, I believe what Drogon is saying is that if 5 people want to sit down and get no credit for The Waking Rune fifteen times, there is nothing stopping that.Thanks, but then this doesn't address a good way to proceed when there's one odd man out.
At least at our location, I hope that the floating AP group will be able to fill this niche. If it doesn't, I'll offer something else that PFS vets can get credit for if they keep showing up like they have been. We could do a Module every week or two, or offer a GM 101/201 session—there's bound to be something else enticing that such avid PFS fans will want to do. We could also look into the adventure card game again, it's well improved since the beta test we did.
While I admit that having replaying for no credit as an option was a much easier method as an organizer, I think that with the material available we should be able to find something fun to pass the time with.
Personally, if it doesn't work out, I'll be out of luck for playing pretty quickly. I just checked and according to my tracking sheet I have 5 scenarios I can play for credit. :P
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Actually, I believe what Drogon is saying is that if 5 people want to sit down and get no credit for The Waking Rune fifteen times, there is nothing stopping that.Thanks, but then this doesn't address a good way to proceed when there's one odd man out.At least at our location, I hope that the floating AP group will be able to fill this niche. If it doesn't, I'll offer something else that PFS vets can get credit for if they keep showing up like they have been. We could do a Module every week or two, or offer a GM 101/201 session—there's bound to be something else enticing that such avid PFS fans will want to do. We could also look into the adventure card game again, it's well improved since the beta test we did.
While I admit that having replaying for no credit as an option was a much easier method as an organizer, I think that with the material available we should be able to find something fun to pass the time with.
Personally, if it doesn't work out, I'll be out of luck for playing pretty quickly. I just checked and according to my tracking sheet I have 5 scenarios I can play for credit. :P
You could also do Pathfinder miniature battles if you want to support the store in selling minis.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Hope I'm not coming off as crappy (seriously, not my intention), nosig, but you are talking to someone who did have this problem and stopped playing as a consequence.
On another personal note, know that if you weren't planning on moving to Kyle's region this summer, I'd fight to keep you as an active participant.
You've been an awesome player, GM, and volunteer and I'm going to be sad to see you go. Luckily, we'll always have GenCon and that terrible, terrible breakfast place in Indianapolis.
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So before I go into it, please note that I have almost all of season 5 available, so my pool has opened up. But there was a long enough period where I wasn't getting credit that I broke the habit. I could have solved this by being more proactive in getting events I could play scheduled (hence the disclaimer in my very first post), but at the rate I was playing, I would have only lasted a month longer.
Prior to season 5, I had the following that I could actually play:
0-22 (7-11)
0-23 (5-9)
1-30 (1-7)
1-33 (1-5)
2-13 (1-5)
4-21 (3-7)
I'm over in Pullman, and the FLGS there plays on Sunday and Wednesday nights every week.
I have played a lot of games for no credit.
PS: 3-15 is one of my favorite scenarios, despite the haunts. :)
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Actually, I believe what Drogon is saying is that if 5 people want to sit down and get no credit for The Waking Rune fifteen times, there is nothing stopping that.Thanks, but then this doesn't address a good way to proceed when there's one odd man out.
So, not only can you not find a scenario that everyone hasn't played, but you cannot find a scenario that everyone has played?
Nope. I'm not on board with this.
Walter, you got it exactly right. I think people can play whatever they want, they just can't expect someone to be able to get credit for it every time. I find that most people put barriers up in places they aren't because they want them there. It makes their stance easier.
I'm sure even I can be accused of that. But as many have pointed out, I have a lot of real evidence on my side in terms of hard sales and recruiting numbers. Mike has a lot of real evidence on his side in terms of people voicing their opinions in his presence and the presence of 100 other people.
I will be in Seattle for Paizocon. I really look forward to having this discussion with you over a beer instead of the internet.
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So, not only can you not find a scenario that everyone hasn't played, but you cannot find a scenario that everyone has played?
Hmm, forgive me if I'm mistaken, but this is how I'm interpreting what you're saying.
Say in our hypothetical ultra limited example universe, there are two scenarios, and my group has 5 people. Let's say, Joe, Bob, Sam, Tim, Jill, and Sue.
Let's then say that everyone in that group has played scenario 0-01. But Joe and Sue, being PFS hungry souls, have already played 0-02 with another group of friends.
Are you suggesting that everyone in our group play 0-01 so Sue/Joe can be included even though all but one person can get credit for 0-02?
In my view, that doesn't make a lot of sense. I think the best scenario for everyone is that Sue/Joe plays for 0-02 no credit (depending on who GMs) while the maximum number of people get credit without anyone feeling excluded.
I guess I don't understand this all or nothing mentality. It doesn't make sense for nobody to get credit, when some people can get credit.
EDIT: Added another person to not confuse the example with "Joe/Sue can actually play for no credit in this situation" Sorry.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Regardless of number of people or the number of scenarios they have available, all the people in your hypothetical universe want one thing: replay for no credit so they can have fun with their buddies.
Well, if that's all they want then stop putting restrictions on how they get it. Pick a scenario and play it for no credit.
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We sanctioned modules and APs for people who like to play more than twice a month. We've giving you those tools /ability you've asked for. Question is, how much have you taken advantage of those other options? How many sanctioned AP chronicle sheets do you have assigned to your PFS characters?
Probably not the best time to ask, but is there any news on the module sanctioning front? We're two modules behind now, and I know there are a bunch of people wondering about this. Sorry to be a bother.
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Actually, no, it's not good to assume that everyone in that group has that mind set. What if one of those guys doesn't want to play for no credit?
It's actually pretty inconceivable to me that anybody would expect an entire table to play a scenario for no credit just to include one person, when there is a possibility for some people to get credit. Even with the restriction imposed by the no-replay-for-no-credit rule, it's a completely illogical option.
Personally, if I were in that situation where I had that, well, false bifurcation, I would just go home rather than force everyone to be on the same no-credit boat with me unnecessarily. It's a completely unreasonable for me to ask that of everyone else.
I mean, that we're even talking about making people choose between hanging out with their friends and getting PFS credit when there is a way for it to be possible is very odd to me. If this is the choice that the no-replay-for-no-credit rule is going to force people to make, then this is pretty good evidence that there's a problem with it.
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What if one of those guys doesn't want to play for no credit?Then I assume he is not there to have fun, but instead get rewards.
And? Damn him for trying to get something for his 5 hours? Can't fault him for that.
Then have that guy DM.
That actually wouldn't solve the problem, because you can't have someone get GM credit if there aren't players who are able to get credit.
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And? Damn him for trying to get something for his 5 hours? Can't fault him for that.Then have that guy DM.That actually wouldn't solve the problem, because you can't have someone get GM credit if there aren't players who are able to get credit.
Then pick another scenario. If someone already played it they can DM it. If not run the confirmation or crypt of the everflame.
You are uysing hypotheticals to create a problem that does not exist.
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Just because it hasn't happened to you does not mean it does not happen at all. It has happened to me. Several times. And I'd just play for no credit and there would be no problems. You're not responding to the hypothetical at all, you're just pretending like it doesn't happen. Don't be dismissive or accusatory, please.
EDIT:
To clarify, the provided hypothetical occurs when there are a couple of scenarios that most of the people can play, but at least two people at the table cannot play. This happens when you group a lot of people who play aggressively, but not necessarily with each other consistently, together.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Some confusion flying around with Acedio's example. Since I think I get what's trying to be communicated, permit me to clear it up. Acedio feel free to chime in and correct as needed.
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Rather than a hypothetical situation, let's look at a more practical one.
On any given week, we have about 10-15 people attend a game night at our local FLGS. Of those people, there are a few fall into Acedio's category—people that can't play for credit without prior planning.
So, on our example game night, lets say we have a 9 people wanting to get credit, and three that don't mind not getting credit, for a total of twelve people. Let's say two of those three volunteer to GM and the third just wants to relax and roll some dice.
So we set up two tables, each with five players. In our pre-clarification understanding of the guide, this was a simple set up. The third person not interested in credit simply sits as the 5th person at a table and all is well. Post-clarification, we now have to set up 3 tables and find a 3rd GM, and each table will have 3 players and a pregen.
Given the choice between three 3 player tables and two 5 player tables, I would much rather have the two 5 player tables.
Basically, in our old understanding, we had some people that legitimately didn't care about credit, they just wanted to play. Other people still were interested in leveling character, or playing their Taldor character through this or that.
However, it's just the individuals that played for no credit, the ones that were there just for love of the game, that would now be asked to go home or GM. Acedio, myself, and a few other regulars participants fall into this category.
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As I said earlier, hopefully our AP/Module/ACG/Miniatures/whatever-else solution will help prevent the above situation from occurring, but as it stands it is a possibility.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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My solution is none of the above.
"You three guys who just want to relax and roll some dice; have you ever played Fiasco? You're gonna love it."
"I just got in the Star Wars - Age of Rebellion starter box. Want to give it a spin and see if it's any good?"
"Do you like fantasy football drafts? Yes? How about a science fiction starship armada draft? Build a fleet and annihilate your opponents' fleets, all in the space of about 20 minutes. It's called Star Realms, and I can't keep it on the shelves it sells so fast."
"My favorite adventure when I was a kid was White Plume Mountain. It's been years since I played AD&D. Any of you willing to take a trip down memory lane with me? It might take a few more sessions than just tonight."
There are so many options. Again, people seem to be putting up barriers because it helps justify what they want. I get that. Please see past the barriers and find out how many options you actually have.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I thought I clearly listed some other options aside from replay.
As I said earlier, hopefully our AP/Module/ACG/Miniatures/whatever-else solution will help prevent the above situation from occurring, but as it stands it is a possibility.
Regardless, I think we're aware that there are alternatives to PFS. I'd just like to mention that the people arrived with the intention of playing PFS, and have been for quite some time. Now that they are unable to, I could definitely provide other options—like all the Pathfinder ones listed above—but it's still not providing my players what they were hoping for.
I completely accept the clarification and will stand by it. Acedio is just one of my players that has been turned about by this update. I'd like to keep them coming back for Pathfinder if at all possible, but I'm sure they can find something else to do with their time.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I thought I clearly listed some other options aside from replay.
As I said earlier, hopefully our AP/Module/ACG/Miniatures/whatever-else solution will help prevent the above situation from occurring, but as it stands it is a possibility.
You did. Sorry. I will edit my post to more accurately reflect my complaint.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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or you switch to scenarios that everyone (except judges) can play.
If you start by limiting the universe of available scenarios to 2, then try to match players... you are going to hit problems.
In your example there are two tables, each with 5 players (and a judge). If 4 of those players (and judges) are in the "...few fall into Acedio's category—people that can't play for credit without prior planning." group then you have 2 of them judge and one each of the other two sit at different tables. Then pick something the players can play. And this is with one third of your group restricted to only one thing they can play - and each of those different scenarios.
This solution works until you have tables of people that signed up for X, Y, or Z scenario, or new players with characters of level A, B, or C.
We've already been dealing with scheduling situations like the one you detailed above. It's just when that's taking too long or someone doesn't care if they get credit or not, it was great to just be able to seat them at a table.
With the change, that is no longer the case.
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or you switch to scenarios that everyone (except judges) can play.
If you start by limiting the universe of available scenarios to 2, then try to match players... you are going to hit problems.
In your example there are two tables, each with 5 players (and a judge). If 4 of those players (and judges) are in the "...few fall into Acedio's category—people that can't play for credit without prior planning." group then you have 2 of them judge and one each of the other two sit at different tables. Then pick something the players can play. And this is with one third of your group restricted to only one thing they can play - and each of those different scenarios.
If you are picking this scenario on the date everyone shows up, then essentially you are asking the Judge to run cold.
That I cannot agree with as a solution except for rare occurrences.
I had to run Destiny of the Sands part 1 cold at a convention. My table didn't go, a GM got sick for our Sunday Evening slot, and the players were signed up to play this one and couldn't play any of the ones I had prepped.
I bit the bullet, they understood, and I ran cold.
But this should be the exception, rather than the rule.
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And? Damn him for trying to get something for his 5 hours?
Besides a good time?
Edit: I should probably back up and make it known that I entirely support the idea of players replaying for no credit. I've run tables where only one player was getting credit and all the rest were just there to get him along. (This only happened in the case of the Quest for Perfection series and getting one player caught up after missing a session.) I really don't see the problem with allowing someone to replay for fun rather than ban them from playing the fifth man. I just don't support it for credit.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Hmm Nosig, I feel like there's a crossed wire somewhere here.
We have Warhorn and use it to organize games. We have people come in that don't sign up or forget to. We don't turn them away because we want them to play. We could, but we don't. I'd rather everyone get to play than people feel excluded. We always try to accommodate and get everyone the maximum amount of credit. This means having myself, Steven, Acedio and others scrap their plans of playing for the evening to step up and GM another table of something we've ran enough to do without any prep.
While this sounds exhausting, we've been doing it for 3 years now and have a great community built up around it. There is always a great deal of "can you play this?" "check that sheet" happening at every game day when we get walk ins.
What happens here is that we honestly have people like me, with 5 scenarios left for credit (and not many more left for GM credit), that simply cannot get credit that night. The math just doesn't work out with the levels we have and the scenarios we have slotted.
In the past, those folks could play regardless for no credit. Now, those people can no longer play at our game days. We will be taking steps to restructure what is offered, but I feel like you haven't quite been understanding how our game days are handled.
It's understandable that there might be some confusion. We have a very person-to-person process that has resulted in what I feel is an exceptionally personable community.
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Then expect everyone who shows up to play those - even if they have already played them. And people show up knowing this?
Yes, often because of a few reasons
1. They don't know about the warhorn.
2. They thought they could play a given scenario, and wound up having played it a long time ago but didn't document it properly (people make mistakes).
3. They don't really care about getting credit and just want to hang out.
Before it wasn't a big deal, but now it's something that has to be addressed before people can play.
Hope that clears it up a bit.
Edit: Ninja'd!
EDIT: While I'm here, I agree with TOZ 100%. I also agree that replaying for credit is detrimental. Not trying to ask for that!
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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(EDIT to expend on this example: Using Acedio above and me as part of the example - if we were two of the players, I would check with the rest of the table to see if they could play any one of these...
0-22 (7-11)
0-23 (5-9)
1-30 (1-7)
1-33 (1-5)
2-13 (1-5)
4-21 (3-7)
and then run that one (maybe swapping a player or two with the other tables).)
It is often the case that we won't be able to get any of those scenarios slotted with the folks that are present on any given night. On the rare times they are playable, the people with few scenarios remaining get them played.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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We have a very person-to-person process that has resulted in what I feel is an exceptionally personable community.
Not that I want to nitpick, but I think if you talk to any organizer they will say the same thing about their community. Just because I don't have these problems does not mean that I don't have a very personable community. And if nosig's community is not the epitome of personable, I don't know what the word actually means.
It sounds like you have a cross between me (iron-fisted control over the entire schedule and how it gets run) and nosig (the ultimate in laid back). It has worked for you, I realize. But what makes your community personable is YOU, not how you schedule your games. Don't mistake one thing for the other.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I do hope that winds up being the case. We'll see how it goes. Next game day is tomorrow night so I'll after then. Although it is finals week as well so we'll likely have spotty attendance.
Also, I didn't mean to come off elitist (although it seems like I might have), but I just wanted to convey the merits of our old system. With any luck, they'll be the same merits of the new one.
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EDIT: While I'm here, I agree with TOZ 100%. I also agree that replaying for credit is detrimental. Not trying to ask for that!
I'm suffering from some zombie flu at the moment and figured I just wasn't comprehending things quite right. Glad to know we are on the same page. :)
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I didn't mean to come off elitist
You didn't. I just wanted to be sure that you actually realized why your community is personable. I am absolutely certain that it has everything to do with the people involved, and nothing to do with the structure of an OrgPlay system.
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Regardless of number of people or the number of scenarios they have available, all the people in your hypothetical universe want one thing: replay for no credit so they can have fun with their buddies.
Well, if that's all they want then stop putting restrictions on how they get it. Pick a scenario and play it for no credit.
You know, from where I am sitting, the direction this thread has gone is not at all related to where I am pointing.
What can be done to mitigate the problems suffered by a SMALL group of PFSers, at a public location, when the two primary GMs are both in the situation that they cannot play the game the other GM is scheduled to run for credit?
For some of the GMs, it is not an easy thing to get to or go from the location. I get a lift there, but going home on my own would take 90 minutes on the buses, or lose the game another player for 40 minutes.
The store closes about 2-3 hours after our sessions are scheduled to end, so running modules instead of scenarios isn't very feasable. At least one of the GMs works that same night, so starting even earlier wouldn't be a good thing, and the store only opens 1 hour before our scheduled start time in any case.
So, running a module or AP segment is not going to work well. I do have plkans to start running a full AP on a different day, but I tried that a couple of times in the past, and real life got in the way.
Just giving up on Sunday PFS, at least from my spot, looks like the simplest thing to do. Doesn't help the people who want to play, much, though, does it?
Whine over, I hope.
Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman
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Regardless of number of people or the number of scenarios they have available, all the people in your hypothetical universe want one thing: replay for no credit so they can have fun with their buddies.
Well, if that's all they want then stop putting restrictions on how they get it. Pick a scenario and play it for no credit.
You know, from where I am sitting, the direction this thread has gone is not at all related to where I am pointing.
What can be done to mitigate the problems suffered by a SMALL group of PFSers, at a public location, when the two primary GMs are both in the situation that they cannot play the game the other GM is scheduled to run for credit?
** spoiler omitted **
I feel your pain. I really do. I can play all of 5-6 games, some of which require multiple tables.
I think that you should look at running the modules as multi-session games. Start part 1 on Sunday and continue them on each Sunday those players who started can play them. It will take a bit of coordination but the reward will be worth it.
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We've not had an issue as far as I can tell. Then again we seem to be able to be mature enough to not boot people who haven't played from a table. :-)
I do know replay w/o credit works when you want to be "along for the ride" for classics.
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I agree with playing for no credit (with credit would be bad because people would farm the most favorable scenarios).
It seems to me the most sensible solution is to have the venue and/or GM determine if they want to allow someone to play for no credit. I would agree that this should also not happen at Cons where there are more choices available.
I don't want to turn people away if they are mature enough to not ruin a scenario for the rest of the players (a warning from the GM before play starts should be sufficient). We had someone show up and sit out last night, but I had the player (who is also an experienced GM) help me with GMing (ran initiative, looked up rules etc.). I have seen this same situation 3 times now in the last month, but we enforced the no replay rule last night - no one in the store was happy.
Letting the venue or GMs determine should satisfy everyone (except those who want to impose their will on someone that has no impact on them personally). Drogon can set the policy of no replays in his store and any GM not comfortable with replaying for no credit can decline the extra player. Seems a reasonable compromise for all.
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Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
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I agree with playing for no credit (with credit would be bad because people would farm the most favorable scenarios).
It seems to me the most sensible solution is to have the venue and/or GM determine if they want to allow someone to play for no credit. I would agree that this should also not happen at Cons where there are more choices available.
I don't want to turn people away if they are mature enough to not ruin a scenario for the rest of the players (a warning from the GM before play starts should be sufficient). We had someone show up and sit out last night, but I had the player (who is also an experienced GM) help me with GMing (ran initiative, looked up rules etc.). I have seen this same situation 3 times now in the last month, but we enforced the no replay rule last night - no one in the store was happy.
Letting the venue or GMs determine should satisfy everyone (except those who want to impose their will on someone that has no impact on them personally). Drogon can set the policy of no replays in his store and any GM not comfortable with replaying for no credit can decline the extra player. Seems a reasonable compromise for all.
It's not Drogon's rule it's a written in black and white Pathfinder Society rule that Mike clarified on page 1. Yes people have been doing it wrong for years, the past is the past. Now that you know the rule is there and we all know about it determines what is going to happen. The fact that some are still saying "well I'm going to break it" kinda boggles the mind, or me at least.
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It's not Drogon's rule it's a written in black and white Pathfinder Society rule that Mike clarified on page 1.
I didn't say that it was Drogon's rule. What I am requesting is a change to the rule to let the venue or GM decide. With a rule change I implied "Drogon can set the policy of no replays in his store". Perhaps you missed "...we enforced the no replay rule last night - no one in the store was happy."
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It's not Drogon's rule it's a written in black and white Pathfinder Society rule that Mike clarified on page 1. Yes people have been doing it wrong for years, the past is the past. Now that you know the rule is there and we all know about it determines what is going to happen. The fact that some are still saying "well I'm going to break it" kinda boggles the mind, or me at least.
Stetrix is proposing that the rule should be loosened so that Drogon can run things his way and someone else might run them differently regarding No Credit replays.
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I'm still not grokking why it would be bad for me to sit at a table of, say, Blakros Matrimony, with 4 people that haven't played it.
I understand it's against the rules because it's "bad for OP." But I haven't seen a reason why it's bad for OP.
I don't understand why someone who had a great RP scenario ruined by someone else's poor play may never get to play that scenario with a decent table.
Edit to Add: My girlfriend has had two scenarios completely ruined for her by other players' decisions / actions. OOG actions that made the experience miserable. Not just people steamrolling a scenario or something. They were both scenarios she was looking forward to. She's unlikely to have many GM Stars if any. So she's just unable to enjoy those scenarios?
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Let me add two points of clarification.
1) Earlier in this post, I have clarified what the rules have been, even before I took this job.
2) That isn't to say I'm opposed to changing them. I think I have shown that, with well thought out debate, I will change things when it is for the betterment of the campaign. I will go ahead and put myself on record advising replay for credit, above what is currently in place with evergreen scenarios and GM replay, is not going to change.