I am trying to come up with a succinct rules-based fix that makes combat interactions on the extreme low end of the CR-world work a little more coherently without breaking things up the scale.
Specific holes in the current rules I aim to fix:
1. A standard cat is more than a match for a level 1 human commoner in combat.
2. A standard cat can deliver a coup de grace with a high probability of success vs. the aforementioned commoner. (Kinda makes you think twice about when you wake up with your cat on your chest, huh?)
3. A standard cat cannot do lethal damage to its prey (except by way of stacking on excessive nonlethal damage).
Here are my changes:
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Original: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.
Revised: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage. If the attacker is larger than the target, they may choose to instead deal 1 point of lethal damage. If the attacker is two or more size categories smaller than the target, a non-critical hit deals no damage of any kind, but is still considered to have done so for the purpose of delivering poisons and similar effects.
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Original: You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.
Revised: You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If you do at least two points of damage and the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.
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Thoughts?
Obviously this creates a little more complexity than the base rules, but it wouldn't come up in play very much. It doesn't do much for halfling and gnome commoners - but they logically should be more vulnerable to tiny predators than their larger counterparts anyway, so I'm not super broken up about that.
I'm kind of in favor of leaving the "problem" as it is, purely for amusement if nothing else.
You could also "fix" it by removing the minimum 1 point of damage (except for crits), or implementing maybe DR 1/- per size category smaller the attacker is.
I'm kind of in favor of leaving the "problem" as it is, purely for amusement if nothing else.
In general, so am I... but I'm prepping something where it matters.
You could also "fix" it by removing the minimum 1 point of damage (except for crits)
That makes it absurdly difficult for tiny and smaller animals to hurt each other, or to use their poison, and doesn't solve the coup de grace problem.
implementing maybe DR 1/- per size category smaller the attacker is.
I thought of that - it's more elegant, but the problem is that then a cat (tiny) can then only hurt a dog (small) on a crit... and while a dog is clearly stronger than a cat, it's probably not THAT much stronger.
And here is where it all falls to hell. Dang it reality!
And here is where it all falls to hell. Dang it reality!
For your amusement value, the reason I care is that I am toying with putting together a parody supplement called "Ultimate Cat"... it would include cats as a PC race, four 10-level base classes specifically for cats, a set of cat feats, etc. It's pretty silly, and totally unbalanced (on the "weak" side) with anything else, but could make for fun one-shots.
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Are Hosuecat vs. Commoner battles a thing in your worlds? If not, why bother?
This is a wargame not a simulation.
Because I'm working on a jokey supplement for one-shot purposes where it might come up.
I'm not sure why Pathfinder being a wargame (a questionable claim in and of itself) would excuse it handling certain types of combat badly. If anything, wouldn't that make it worse?
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You say problem I say population control.
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Find a random citizen. Have them try to wash a cat.
Watch as pathfinder once again provides a perfect simulation of reality.
To be fair, if a cat had human intelligence, it could very well murder a human quite easily in their sleep. The only thing that bothers me is that a cat has 3 hit points whereas a rat and a bug (greensting scorpion) have 4 hit points. What's up with that?
To be fair, if a cat had human intelligence, it could very well murder a human quite easily in their sleep. The only thing that bothers me is that a cat has 3 hit points whereas a rat and a bug (greensting scorpion) have 4 hit points. What's up with that?
I am similarly bemused by the fact that in a fight to the death, a well-played Pathfinder squirrel will probably beat a cat. They both have 3 HP and do 1 damage per hit, and the cat has 3 attacks, so it sounds like it should be easy for the cat - but the squirrel is a size category smaller and has 2 more dex, so winds up at +4 to hit and +4 to AC relative to the cat.
Thus, the squirrel hits on a roll of 6+ while the cat needs a roll of 14+. Still, if they just stood and fought head to head, the cat would still win, on average, because of its three attacks. But wait - the squirrel has Acrobatics +6 while the cat has a CMD of 6. So the squirrel can attack and then tumble away with a guaranteed success every round, denying the cat the ability to make more than one attack per round, at which point the cat is pretty much screwed, even if it won initiative, because it is making 1 attack/round at a 35% to hit, and the squirrel is making 1 attack/round at 75% to hit.
Of course, no rational DM would ever fight a squirrel that way - they would just have it run to the nearest tree and climb-speed away - but it's pretty silly that it is possible.
Squirrel vs. Commoner doesn't work out so well for the Commoner either, most likely...
I would just restat commoners by giving them two HD. If they have a dagger they should pull ahead.
My solution is usually to level up the commoner. I know a lot of people prefer a level distribution which is extremely heavily weighted on the low end, but I find the world makes a lot more sense when the party doesn't surpass the rest of society at level three.
The only thing that becomes an issue is magic, because higher level spells can have world altering ramifications if they are widely available. But then, how common are full casters really? Just because there happen to be a few commoners that make it all the way to level 7 doesn't mean that every village and farming community has a wizard casting 3rd level spells.
It doesn't fix the comparative entries on animals, but that's an issue at any CR level.
To be fair, if a cat had human intelligence, it could very well murder a human quite easily in their sleep. The only thing that bothers me is that a cat has 3 hit points whereas a rat and a bug (greensting scorpion) have 4 hit points. What's up with that?I am similarly bemused by the fact that in a fight to the death, a well-played Pathfinder squirrel will probably beat a cat. They both have 3 HP and do 1 damage per hit, and the cat has 3 attacks, so it sounds like it should be easy for the cat - but the squirrel is a size category smaller and has 2 more dex, so winds up at +4 to hit and +4 to AC relative to the cat.
Thus, the squirrel hits on a roll of 6+ while the cat needs a roll of 14+. Still, if they just stood and fought head to head, the cat would still win, on average, because of its three attacks. But wait - the squirrel has Acrobatics +6 while the cat has a CMD of 6. So the squirrel can attack and then tumble away with a guaranteed success every round, denying the cat the ability to make more than one attack per round, at which point the cat is pretty much screwed, even if it won initiative, because it is making 1 attack/round at a 35% to hit, and the squirrel is making 1 attack/round at 75% to hit.
Of course, no rational DM would ever fight a squirrel that way - they would just have it run to the nearest tree and climb-speed away - but it's pretty silly that it is possible.
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I'm my imaginary re-write of the rules, all races (including humans) would start with a racial HD, and THEN you'd add your level of Commoner on top of that... effectively starting most people at level 2 in HP... and giving them a fighting chance vs. killer cats and squirrels.
(Also means that children and other pre-adults critters are effectively 0-level commoners for their race, should one ever need to stat them up.)
I still recall that in one of the previous editions of a well-known german RPG (The Dark Eye), house cats ignored armor because they always attack unprotected body zones.
I think the rules are fine. A house cat that doesn't behave naturally (one that is possessed by magic jar, for example) should be able to murder a human commoner 1 in their sleep.
I would just restat commoners by giving them two HD. If they have a dagger they should pull ahead.
Most NPCs do. The average Farmer, for instance, is a Commoner 1/Expert 1.
Plus, I don't think it's too far off reality. My cat could probably kill me if she put her mind to it. Her claws are long and thick enough she could probably rip open an artery without much issue.
Though she is an unusually large cat.
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Uh...squirrels and cats both have identical to-hit and AC. So...the squirrel/cat thing? Doesn't actually work like that. If the squirrel is the attacker and uses hit and run tactics it breaks even...but that's all it does.
As for Commoner vs. House Cat, that age old battle misses a couple of important rules: Grappling and Reach.
A cat has CMD 6, even with a +0 CMB, a Commoner is really likely to make that, and then squeeze the cat into unconsciousness pretty quick. Can the cat escape? Sure, in theory, but it'll likely get recaptured before it can attack. Its odds of getting a full attack off before being re-grappled are 1 in 4.
Also, the cat provokes an AoO every time it moves to attack the human. That's not enough to win the fight, but it sure makes things worse for the cat (since one good hit and it's down).
Combine the two, and the cat's odds are less than great, especially if (as noted) most people are 2nd level or higher.
Now, can a cat still kill a human being? Sure. Especially with a coup de grace. But...that's accurate. Almost anything, if directed with malign will and knowledge of our vital spots can kill a human. Cats just aren't temperamentally inclined to do so.
For that matter, lynxes and bobcats in North America, which come in at 20 lbs or so, which is the high end of house cat weight, and are built along similar lines, routinely hunt deer. Successfully. That makes house cats killing us (from surprise anyway) pretty plausible if they were so inclined.
Uh...squirrels and cats both have identical to-hit and AC. So...the squirrel/cat thing? Doesn't actually work like that. If the squirrel is the attacker and uses hit and run tactics it breaks even...but that's all it does.
False.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/cat
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/squirrel
The problem is that the game often assumes the "average person" is level 1, where the real world "average person" makes more sense at around level 2 or 3.
The problem is that the game assumes the "average person" is level 1, where the real world "average person" makes more sense at around level 2 or 3.
Truth. I honestly think you'd get a great product for low-fantasy if one took levels 2-7 and re-incremented them into a complete game. Like epic 6, but less of a hack...
This is giving me way too many ideas. I'm now brainstorming a plot where an evil guy commits mass murder or assassinations by mind controlling cats and having them coup de grace their owners.
I mean, why not? I had a villain try to spread a plague by baleful polymorphing infected people into cats and giving them away as pets.
This is giving me way too many ideas. I'm now brainstorming a plot where an evil guy commits mass murder or assassinations by mind controlling cats and having them coup de grace their owners.
I mean, why not? I had a villain try to spread a plague by baleful polymorphing infected people into cats and giving them away as pets.
I love every part of this.
I came up with a fix to solve this before...
When a attacking creature has it's damage reduced to 0 because of strength, it deals 1 point of non-lethal damage instead. If the damage is reduced to less than 0 (in the instance of the cat, it's claws do 1d2-4), it takes multiple hits to cause 1 non-lethal.
The number of hits to cause this 1 non-lethal damage is based on how much damage below zero it's maximum damage (non-critical) would be. A cat's maximum damage is -2; since a zero damage strike still causes 1 non-lethal damage, it would take 3 strikes to equal that.
The very same cat, on a critical, causes 2d2-4 damage. Since the maximum damage a cat could do on a critical is 0, a critical from it's claws will also do 1 non-lethal, regardless of the die roll.
A cat's bite does 1d3-4; it's maximum damage is -1, so 2 bites will cause 1 non-lethal damage.
However, on a critical, the cat's bite does 2d3-4 damage. It can cause 2 lethal damage if it rolls high enough! Otherwise, it cause 1 non-lethal damage.
Just the way I run it. A cat can indeed kill a 1st level commoner, it would just take many attacks to do so under this system.
This thread is blasphemous.Humans should thank their feline overlords for their continued life, and the mercy they show us.
The felines of the world would totally agree!
A similar thought is to have a villain that was baleful polymorphed into a cat but made the will save. Imagine a Psion/Telepath cat as the ultimate antagonist of a political intrigue game. A good mouser is welcome -- and ignored -- everywhere. A telepathic mouser can not only rule a kingdom from behind the throne but rule every faction in the capitol from behind whatever their nominal leaders rest their rumps on. And if the PCs eventually catch on he's a mind controlling caster that can go places a kobold couldn't follow. It looks like it would start working at level 8 when you get get the second discipline ability and can have 4th level powers so Vizier Cat could work as a "big" bad for a 5 level campaign.This is giving me way too many ideas. I'm now brainstorming a plot where an evil guy commits mass murder or assassinations by mind controlling cats and having them coup de grace their owners.
I mean, why not? I had a villain try to spread a plague by baleful polymorphing infected people into cats and giving them away as pets.
This reminds me of a story passed down in my group of an old game where the party adopted a cat. Well, the cat eventually killed enough commoners to level up, and it became a level 1 sorcerer. The cat sorcerer became a recurring character across campaigns, consistently leveling up until it was a living legend. I believe it actually made it to epic level, supposedly legitimately through gaining xp in game.
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Uh...squirrels and cats both have identical to-hit and AC. So...the squirrel/cat thing? Doesn't actually work like that. If the squirrel is the attacker and uses hit and run tactics it breaks even...but that's all it does.False.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/cat
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/squirrel
Huh. Weird.
I was looking at the prd and the only entry I found for squirrel was this.
And I sorta assumed the stats for a squirrel would be about those of a flying squirrel. Apparently not.
Looking at those, I'd say the problem there is more with the squirrel stats than those of the cat, personally. Particularly given it's CR as compared to a cat's.
The other fix is, of course, to not even roll dice when commoners fight tiny animals. :)
If you want to run something that just involves tiny and smaller creatures and you want it to make more sense, then adjust everything so that your main characters are size medium or large.
For example, shrink a party of medium sized characters down to 6" tall, for them nothing changes, but that housecat now uses the stats for a tiger, rats become wolves, and so on.
It makes running tiny adventures a lot easier.
If you want to run something that just involves tiny and smaller creatures and you want it to make more sense, then adjust everything so that your main characters are size medium or large.
For example, shrink a party of medium sized characters down to 6" tall, for them nothing changes, but that housecat now uses the stats for a tiger, rats become wolves, and so on.
It makes running tiny adventures a lot easier.
The guy that made Pact Magic Unbound also wrote a book on microsized adventures.
Not to rain on the parade (because this is a pretty awesome thread) but in all seriousness, I toss Rule Zero into the ring when silliness comes into effect. It simply doesn't happen. But if I were to entertain it...
Does it make sense for an intelligent, inexplicably evil housecat to murder its owner? Okay, why not. Cats don't do much anyway, but since this one's intelligent, I'm sure it has something that resembles a motive (maybe he saw the bottom of his food dish more than once this week).
A random, un-templated housecat killing a level 1 commoner? No. Not via damage, at any rate. Infected scratch? If it's good enough for Dothraki warlords, sure! But that's also assuming the commoner fails to do anything about the wound and/or infection, whether by ignorance or lack of means.
Sometimes "abusing" silly things like this brings out some really awesome ideas though. I think there is some genuine merit in using domesticated cats en masse as a disease vector, especially if there is a druid PC. Could be very interesting.
NPCs get XP too. A commoner 1 is an inexperienced kid or youth or adolescent, an average adult is level 2-4.
See this post for more on A Theory about Peasants by SKR and NPC levelling.