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I apologize if this question has been answered already, but I couldn't find it if it was. I am surprised it isn't, given the plethora of discussion regarding whether or not Bane stacks with itself.
Both the Furious and Bane abilities increase the weapon's enhancement bonus under different circumstances - do these increases stack if both circumstances are met? Such as a raging Barbarian with a +1 Furious Bane(Monstrous Humanoids) Greatsword fighting a Minotaur - would that Greatsword have an effective enhancement bonus of +3 or +5?
Bonuses of the same kind (in this case enhancement bonuses) do not stack. There are a few exceptions, but this isn't one of the them. From the PRD:
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
I'm not sure.
The wording is a bit unclear.
You don't "add" (the usual term) a +2 bonus, but "the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal".
IMO, you can stack those two, because I wouldn't understand such specific writings for that kind of abilities. Still, it's RAI.
Someone else ?
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This is the definition of stacking bonuses. Bane and Furious are both enhancement bonuses. Circumstantial enhancement bonuses, but enhancement bonuses all the same. Bonuses of the same type do not stake. Since Bane and Furious are of the same type they don't stack, even if it would only happen on the occasion that the required conditions of both Bane and Furious are met. Enhancement bonuses of any type do not stack unless explicitly stated.There's no "stacking bonuses." The enhancement bonus is treated as 2 higher for bane, and 2 higher for Furious.
So your +1 Furious Feybane Greatsword is a +5 Greatsword weapon when wielded against a Quickling by a raging Barbarian.
(As an added bonus, it gets past DR/alignment, too.)
A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus.
So a +1 Undead-bane Greatsword is a +3 Greatsword when weilded against Vampires. There's no "bonus."
When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal.
Likewise, a +1 Furious Greatsword is a +3 Greatsword while wielded by a raging PC.
So, logic dictates that since these conditional modifiers (not bonuses) can be triggered simultaneously, They can be applied simultaneously. Your +1 Undeadbane Furious Greatsword is a +5 Greatsword when both conditions are met.
Bane and Furious are not the same type of bonus, but that isn't the reason they wouldn't stack. The reason is the wording of ability. Furious increases the bonus by +2 than it normally is. So a +1 Furious Feybane Greatsword, while a barbarian is raging is a +3 Greatsword, while the same raging barbarian fighting a Qucikling would still be a +3 Greatsword, though it would deal the additional 2D6 damage.
The greatsword's bonus is ACTUALLY +1. Its NORMAL bonus is +1. Both modify the +1 bonus, not the +3 when a condition is met, because +3 is neither its actual bonus or its normal bonus.
I would agree with this interpretation, but Jayson MF Kip provides the most compelling counter-argument: there is no rule explicitly stating you cant't 'double increase' a bonus. I would, however, venture a guess that you enjoy playing barbarians frequently Jayson? ;)
The greatsword's bonus is ACTUALLY +1. Its NORMAL bonus is +1. Both modify the +1 bonus, not the +3 when a condition is met, because +3 is neither its actual bonus or its normal bonus.
Actually, I have changed my mind and now agree with Jayson.
The greatsword's bonus is ACTUALLY +1. Its NORMAL bonus is +1. Both modify the +1 bonus, not the +3 when a condition is met, because +3 is neither its actual bonus or its normal bonus.
Interesting reading. I'm not convinced that's the RAI, but it could be a RAW reading, yes.
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I couldn't figured out why they wrote this enhancement like that, so I tried with a simpler description: "While you rage, add +2 enhancement bonus to your weapon".
Problem, would it stack with your actual enhancement bonus ? Nope. Enhancement bonus don't stack.
So maybe this writing is simply to add a bonus without the stacking problem. But then, I have no freakin' clue about a bane and a raging enchantment.
FAQ ?
It functions as a +5 sword, if in the hands of a rageing person and used against a minutaur, i belive.
Jayson have my full support.
But seriously, I find barbarians powerful enough without the advantage of getting a 2 for 1 special on enhancement bonuses - cuz let's be honest, when is a barbarian NOT raging in combat? This 'conditional' modifier will apply 95% of the time.
Still, bane is situational. I don't see a balance problem or whatever. A rage can be stopped by some effects, and sometimes, you can want to stop a rage to gain some or your "once by rage" rage power.
A dev's post/FAQ could be useful to understand the RAI/RAW I guess.
Actually, I have changed my mind and now agree with Jayson.*GASP* Traitor! (jk) :P
But seriously, I find barbarians powerful enough without the advantage of getting a 2 for 1 special on enhancement bonuses - cuz let's be honest, when is a barbarian NOT raging in combat? This 'conditional' modifier will apply 95% of the time.
If the intent of the ability was for it to stack, then why not simply state that it 'gives a raging character a +2 (untyped) bonus to attack and damage rolls while raging'?
Bear in mind this also affects the barbarians ability to overcome damage reduction - he can effectively overcome DR one step ahead of the actual cost of his weapon.
So the problem is the furious enchantment? It is powerfull yes, but several of the martial classes have a chance for a bonus like that. gloves of dueling for the figther for example.
Bane and Furious are not the same type of bonus, but that isn't the reason they wouldn't stack. The reason is the wording of ability. Furious increases the bonus by +2 than it normally is. So a +1 Furious Feybane Greatsword, while a barbarian is raging is a +3 Greatsword, while the same raging barbarian fighting a Qucikling would still be a +3 Greatsword, though it would deal the additional 2D6 damage.
The greatsword's bonus is ACTUALLY +1. Its NORMAL bonus is +1. Both modify the +1 bonus, not the +3 when a condition is met, because +3 is neither its actual bonus or its normal bonus.
Actually, I have the exact opposite reading. If they both had "actual", they certainly would not stack. If they both had "normal", I'd say they probably shouldn't stack.
But a Bane weapon's "normal" bonus against the appropriate creature is +3, not +1, because it is always, consistently +3 against that creature, regardless of the circumstances. It's "normal" bonus against a different creature is only +1.
This can get tricky, however:
If the Bane weapon quality is applied first, it alters the "normal" bonus of the weapon, However, if the Furious quality is applied first, it clearly does not change the "actual" bonus of the weapon. You could argue that the Bane weapon quality would have to be applied first in order for them to stack.
However, since the Furious bonus is a short-term bonus that is activated when wielder takes an action (starts a rage), I think it's reasonable to argue that the Furious bonus alters the "normal" bonus of the weapon at the time the wielder starts raging, i.e., Furious alters the current normal state of the weapon.
That, at least, is how I would read the distinction between an "actual bonus" and "normal bonus".
Furious: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A furious weapon serves as a focus for its wielder's anger. When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal. If the wielder has a rage power that gives a skill bonus while raging (such as raging climber, raging leaper, or raging swimmer), the wielder gains an enhancement bonus to that skill whenever the weapon is wielded or held in hand, even when not raging; this bonus is equal to the enhancement bonus of the weapon (including the +2 when the wielder is raging).Moderate enchantment (compulsion); CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, rage; Price +1 bonus.
Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. To randomly determine a weapon's designated foe, roll on the following table.
Well, isn't this the pretty little thing. It does say "the weapon's enhancement bonus" in both texts. In Furious, it mentions "enhancement" three times.
I suppose the real question is if enhancement can stack with itself.
Furious: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A furious weapon serves as a focus for its wielder's anger. When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal. If the wielder has a rage power that gives a skill bonus while raging (such as raging climber, raging leaper, or raging swimmer), the wielder gains an enhancement bonus to that skill whenever the weapon is wielded or held in hand, even when not raging; this bonus is equal to the enhancement bonus of the weapon (including the +2 when the wielder is raging).Moderate enchantment (compulsion); CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, rage; Price +1 bonus.
Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. To randomly determine a weapon's designated foe, roll on the following table.
Well, isn't this the pretty little thing. It does say "the weapon's enhancement bonus" in both texts. In Furious, it mentions "enhancement" three times.
I suppose the real question is if enhancement can stack with itself.
Neither of the abilities are adding an enhancement bonus to anything. They are both increasing a pre-existing value already there.
Okay, I'll bite. What type of bonus do you propose it is?
Are you saying that neither ability grants a bonus, but an increase?
If you are arguing it isn't a bonus at all, but an increase, what's the argument that similar increases stack?
I'd like to hear your reasoning. You're obviously invested in barbarians and have spent some time thinking as regards this.
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Well, isn't this the pretty little thing. It does say "the weapon's enhancement bonus" in both texts. In Furious, it mentions "enhancement" three times.
I suppose the real question is if enhancement can stack with itself.
You need to look at the context in which the word "enhancement" is being used.
For both bane and furious, it says that if "this" particular condition is met, the enhancement bonus of the weapon is treated as being 2 higher than it actually is. This is different than actually saying "xyz provides a +2 enhancement bonus".
Coincidentally, furious does say that it provides a "+x enhancement bonus" to a particular skill. It further specifies what that enhancement bonus is by saying it is equivalent to the enhancement bonus of the weapon (including the +2 increase if raging).
I am of the opinion that, because the special abilities are not adding a specific enhancement bonus, but merely increasing the weapon's enhancement bonus when certain conditions are met, that these two will "stack" (even though "stacking" may not necessarily be the correct term).
So, with that in mind, a +1 furious bane (undead) longsword, if wielded by a raging barbarian against a zombie, would have a +5 enhancement bonus, do an additional 2d6 damage, and give a +5 enhancement bonus to a particular skill (assuming the barbarian has the requisite rage power). The bonus to skill is obviously hyper-conditional. In any other situation, the bonus would only be +1 (or +3 if raging).
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So, with that in mind, a +1 furious bane (undead) longsword, if wielded by a raging barbarian against a zombie, would have a +5 enhancement bonus, do an additional 2d6 damage, and give a +5 enhancement bonus to a particular skill (assuming the barbarian has the requisite rage power). The bonus to skill is obviously hyper-conditional. In any other situation, the bonus would only be +1 (or +3 if raging).
This is pretty spot-on, except you'd have to be using the skill while attacking for the bane increase to apply. It's going to be a +3 bonus (while raging) in all but the most rare of cases (+5 to Swim while charging a Zombie while swimming, maybe)?
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So, with that in mind, a +1 furious bane (undead) longsword, if wielded by a raging barbarian against a zombie, would have a +5 enhancement bonus, do an additional 2d6 damage, and give a +5 enhancement bonus to a particular skill (assuming the barbarian has the requisite rage power). The bonus to skill is obviously hyper-conditional. In any other situation, the bonus would only be +1 (or +3 if raging).This is pretty spot-on, except you'd have to be using the skill while attacking for the bane increase to apply. It's going to be a +3 bonus (while raging) in all but the most rare of cases (+5 to Swim while charging a Zombie while swimming, maybe)?
Lol, yeah, maybe I should have said "hyper-conditional".
Both Bane and Furious obviously are intended to function, and since they don't explicitly provide an exception to the "enhancement bonuses don't stack" rule then they must function differently. They effectively state that when the specific circumstances are met that the weapon is treated as a weapon of +X+2 (where +X is the weapon's normal enhancement bonus).
Bane and Furious use similar but different language in describing this effect. Bane states that in the above 'formula', X is the weapon's "actual" enhancement bonus; Furious describes X as the weapon's "normal" enhancement bonus.
I think we can safely assume that "normal" is equivalent to "the weapon's base, inherent magical enhancement bonus with nothing else applied. So then the question is: Does "actual" then also equal "normal", or does it mean "current effective enhancement bonus"?
Personally I'm of the mind that they don't stack. When the conditions are met, Bane takes X - the weapon's normal bonus - and changes it to X+2; when the conditions are met, Furious changes the weapon's effective enhancement bonus to X+2. In order for them to stack, Bane (or Furious) would have to change the weapon's effective bonus to X+2+2 - and I don't think the language indicates that.
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I apologize if this question has been answered already, but I couldn't find it if it was. I am surprised it isn't, given the plethora of discussion regarding whether or not Bane stacks with itself.
Both the Furious and Bane abilities increase the weapon's enhancement bonus under different circumstances - do these increases stack if both circumstances are met? Such as a raging Barbarian with a +1 Furious Bane(Monstrous Humanoids) Greatsword fighting a Minotaur - would that Greatsword have an effective enhancement bonus of +3 or +5?
Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus IS +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. To randomly determine a weapon's designated foe, roll on the following table.
Furious: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A furious weapon serves as a focus for its wielder's anger. When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon's enhancement bonus IS +2 better than normal. If the wielder has a rage power that gives a skill bonus while raging (such as raging climber, raging leaper, or raging swimmer), the wielder gains an enhancement bonus to that skill whenever the weapon is wielded or held in hand, even when not raging; this bonus is equal to the enhancement bonus of the weapon (including the +2 when the wielder is raging).
So, looking at those My interpretation is that NEITHER of these options are ADDING an enhancement bonus to the normal +1. Both actually CHANGE the enhancement bonus to Bonus+2. Since they are actually Changing the bonus, it should stack as applying 1 changes the bonus to +3, it is still a normal enhancement bonus, exactly the same as it was when it was +1. Then the second type changes it to (Bonus+2)+2 For a total of +5.
Lets say you are already attacking an MH, with Bane your weapon IS +3 with +2d6, now you ADD rage, Rage adds +2 to the actual bonus. Since you are attacking an MH and Bane made actual Enhancement bonus +3 adding rage makes it +5.
Lets flip sequence around and see if it still works, You're already raging and just squashed a bear with you +3 sword because when raging it IS +3. Now you turn and swing at that minotaur while still raging. because range CHANGES the actual bonus (not effective) the weapon's 'normal' bonus while raging IS +3, this becomes +5 attacking the minotaur.
If either of these was an 'effective bonus' then they would not work this way. but because both change the actual enhancement bonus then they work with each other rather than in place of each other.
This is the definition of stacking bonuses. Bane and Furious are both enhancement bonuses. Circumstantial enhancement bonuses, but enhancement bonuses all the same. Bonuses of the same type do not stake. Since Bane and Furious are of the same type they don't stack, even if it would only happen on the occasion that the required conditions of both Bane and Furious are met. Enhancement bonuses of any type do not stack unless explicitly stated.There's no "stacking bonuses." The enhancement bonus is treated as 2 higher for bane, and 2 higher for Furious.
So your +1 Furious Feybane Greatsword is a +5 Greatsword weapon when wielded against a Quickling by a raging Barbarian.
(As an added bonus, it gets past DR/alignment, too.)
Bane and Furious to not add a +2 enhancement bonus to the weapon. If this was the wording, they would not stack with a weapon's existing enhancement bonus.
Bane and Furious have specific wording that them to raise the existing enhancement bonus of the weapon by 2. This specific wording allows Bane and Furious to stack with the existing enhancement of the weapon. It also, incidentally, allows Bane and Furious to stack with each other.
I actually do not understand the counter argument. Does someone actually think that the two special abilities were intended to NOT work with one another? I'm sorry but if someone thinks that is the intention they are going to need to supply some pretty compelling evidence to the contrary. Since the "bonuses" that they provide are untyped they do not violate any stacking rules. They even come from separate sources.
It works the way that Natural Armor bonuses work with the "increases the character's existing natural armor". There is pretty clear precedent for this within the rules. Natural Armor comes in a few wordings that all stack with eachother: "Natural Armor" or "Natural Armor Bonus" stacks with "Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor" which all stack with "increases the character's existing natural armor". They all stack because the only one of those that is a named bonus is "Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor". Its the same reason everything stacks with the base 10 AC all character start with.
Untyped bonuses from different sources stack. Nothing in either description names a bonus type and in fact isn't a bonus in the sense of stacking rules at all. Order of operations also doesn't matter. Whether you consider "actual" to mean "current" or "before any modifiers are applied" the math works out the same. Both are increasing the original bonus by +2. Untyped. To be honest, I'm having trouble understanding how anyone would think it would work any other way...
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I think they work together because of the wording.
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I suspect some die-hard Barbarian players will protest violently ;)
Barbarian players do everything violently. They drink in a bar violently. They drive violently. They shop at the grocery store violently. they prepare tea and drink it with an outstretched pinky violently.
Barbarian players do everything violently. They drink in a bar violently. They drive violently. They shop at the grocery store violently. they prepare tea and drink it with an outstretched pinky violently.You're forgetting that you can't do anything requiring patience or concentration while raging.
So could a barbarian player roll up a wizard character and have that character cast spells while the player's raging?
(As far as the original topic from 2014? Looks like the consensus they came up with is that since the change to bonus was unnamed, it stacks.)
They're not unnamed/untyped, both apply changes explicitly to the enhancement bonus of the weapon. Not a trait bonus to att/dam or..anything else.
There's absolutely no justification for saying it's an untyped bonus.
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The existing bonus to a magical weapon is an enhancement bonus by definition and by default.The changes are both explicitly to the existing bonus. Not creating a new bonus, not applying a trait or untyped bonus.. it's all to the existing bonus..the enhancement bonus. Idk how it could possibly be any clearer, it's textbook stacking.
How is changing the value of one bonus twice in any way equivalent to two separate bonuses of the same type? AFAIK there is literally no textual support for changes to an existing bonus being treated as bonuses to that bonus which are the same type as the bonus they are changing.
Isn't this basically the same argument as applying both the Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter traits to the same spell?
It is not an enhancement bonus.
If they are enhancement bonuses that don't stack there would never be a weapon with them that has a higher than +1 as it wouldn't do anything. I can at least see the argument for the two not stacking because they make it two higher than normal, normal in this case being +1 and +3 is two higher than that, but I don't agree with that interpretation.