The ultimate Glass Cannon? (hope it doesn't work haha)


Rules Questions


After discovering the spell Storm of Blades i started wondering how it exactly works, and here are some questions regarding the spell and subsequently the build.
Spell Text:

STORM OF BLADES
school conjuration (creation)
casting time: 1 standard action
components: V,S,M(a sword)
range: close
target one: creature
duration: istantaneous
ST: none, SP no

You create floating swords of the type used as the material component for this spell (such as a rapier or scimitar) and magically propel them at your target. You can create one sword for every 2 caster leveld that you posses, up to a maximum of five swords at 10th level. You must have line of effect between you and the target, and the target must be within the spell's range. You make a ranged attack roll for each sword (with no penalties for range increments or using melee weapons as ranged weapons); each attack has the same threat range and critical modifier and deals the same damage as a standard sword of the type expended. Swords created by this spell disappear after striking (or missing) the targets.

So the questions are:

1:How about Maximise Spell and Empower? Does the spell work with this feats?
2:What about using a sword with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization? Can i use the bonuses provided by these feats?
3: Does Deadly Aim apply?
4: Does Arcane Strike apply?
5: Lets say that the answers to points 2,3,4 is yes, if i take Spell Perfection feat, do i double the bonuses provided by these feats?
6: Does Improved Critical apply?

Lets see if my ultimate build works...

Elf

FIGHTER 1 deadly aim, Weapon focus (Falchion),
WIZARD, Diviner 1 Scribe Scroll
ELDRITCH KNIGHT 1 Arcane Strike, Reach spell
EK 2
EK 3 Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
EK 4
EK 5 Empower Spell, Highten Spell
EK 6
EK 7 Improved Critical
EK 8
EK 9 Critical Focus, Arcane Armor Training
EK 10 SPELL CRITICAL
HELLKNIGHT SIGNIFIER 1 Preferred Spell
HS 2
HS 3 Spell Perfection
HS 4
HS 5 Bleeding Critical
HS 6
HS 7 Maximise Spell
HS 8

BAB 17,
STR 7,DEX 27,CON 10,INT 28,WIS 10,CHA 10

When casting Storm of Blades:
ATTACK ROLLS:bab 17+dex 7+weapon focus +1(or +2,see question 5)- Deadly Aim 5=Total: +20(or 21) to hit, Crit range 15-20 x2

DAMAGE ROLLS:Weapon Specilization +2(or+4)+ Deadly Aim +10 (or+20)+ Arcane Strike +5 (or+10)=Total: +17 (or+34 per hit, hilarious)

There is a doubt if Arcane strike is worth it, couse it takes you the swift action for Spell Critical.

TURN 1
Step1: cast Storm of Blades, roll some crits
Step2: confirm the crits
Step3: spell critical with Borrowed Time spell
Step4: a spell of your choice, if in doubt see step1

TURN 2
Repeat ad libitum
Profit

Grand Lodge

Where does this spell appear?

It would help to know the source.


Hi, apologies for caps lock on the title.

The spell is from People of the Sands.

Grand Lodge

For 2, 3, & 4, yes.

Basically, these are ranged attacks with swords.


Thats wonderful! Thoughts on 1,5 and 6?


Well, my magus is taking this spell as possible. Great for my dervish magus. But I'm not sure it makes a great glass cannon.

Grand Lodge

For #1, it is hard to tell.
What variable, numeric effects are you suggesting these feats effect?

For #6, I don't see why not.


If all works, it seems pretty decent to me. I can't calculate the average damage per round (i really don't know how to do it), but by rolling the dices it was something between 400 and 1000 points of damage per round (calculated on an armor class of a CR 20)

I thought it effects the damage rolls, but maybe it seems unreasonable.

Is the spell comparable to a Scorching Ray? If so the damage should be maximised/empowered, i think.

Grand Lodge

It seems tricky.

For now, I would assume that it cannot be maximized/empowered.

Just to be on the safe side, especially if this PFS.

Be sure to get the clearance from your DM.


Is their two storm of blades spells because I am only seeing one and it does not do what you describe?

Storm of Blades


I think there are two different spells. Some names are changed in the PFSRD.


I think that Spell Perfection feat should undoubtedly work with the feats listed above.

Spell Perfection

You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.

Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.

Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to ANY ASPECT of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
(emphasis mine)

Any other idea on this one and on maximise/empower feats?

Silver Crusade

How is your 7 Str "wizard" going to carry around enough scimitars to cast this spell multiple times? They can't be in a bag of holding, since you need them available to use as a material component in the spell.

Grand Lodge

Eschew Materials?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Eschew Materials?

The material component must cost less than 1gp for Eschew Materials. Good thought though.


MATMATMAT! wrote:

I think that Spell Perfection feat should undoubtedly work with the feats listed above.

Spell Perfection

You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.

Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.

Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to ANY ASPECT of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
(emphasis mine)

Any other idea on this one and on maximise/empower feats?

I'd say questionable to #5. One could argue that you are applying set numerical bonuses from feats to weapon attacks, not an aspect of the spell. The weapons are an effect created by the spell, but the damage they deal falling under, "any aspect"\," of the spell is debatable.

As for the OP's other questions, no to #1 but yes to #2-4 and #6. As evidenced by this being a conjuration (creation) spell with SR: no, the spell creates nonmagical weapons and launches them at an enemy. Damage from successful ranged attacks is from the weapon, not a variable, numeric effect of the spell.

On a similar note, it's of less use against creatures with DR because the damage is dealt as a standard weapon of the material component.


False Focus, then.


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Maybe not a wizard, but an oracle of metal with the iron weapon revelation?


@Wroy

Interesting interpretation, but i think that by reading spell perfection it is more immediate to say "yes it works". Isn't the weapon damage an essential aspect of the spell? It also varies if different sword is chosen as a material component.

I see your point, but there are other spells that create the exact same effect and they can be surely maximisable/empowerable. For example Acid Arrow. Conjuration (creation), no SR, creates an arrow.

I completely agree. When higher DR appears, the damage is lowered. But it shouldn't be an issue if you can maximise and stuff..

@Athaleon

False focus seems perfect!

@Wyvurn

Also a metal oracle should be fine, but i prefer him going for Eldritch Knight for Spell Critical capstone ability. EK fires 5 swords all at highest bonus with 15-20 crit range and he is most likely to use spell critical every round.


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I'd say no to #1, since the dame is being dealt by the swords summoned, not the spell itself. Like how summoned monsters don't get natural 20's on all attacks rolls because you used Maximize Spell on Summon Monster III.


KainPen wrote:

Is their two storm of blades spells because I am only seeing one and it does not do what you describe?

Storm of Blades

The spell on d20PFSRD is not correct. The casting and effect sections are from Acid Arrow. The spell description is from Daybreak Arrow.


I really wanna see this spell haha.

Uhm I forget what it is. but I think there is knife or maybe a magus ability that makes a copy of the weapon.
Actually I think theres a specific magic knife, and also a force knife on magus.
but you could use that as the material no? I suppose it depends on what weapons you can use for it.. It says sword so maybe not?

As far as carrying a ton of stuff.. I suppose if that magic quiver in non PFS with a nice gm, or in sheaths and put it in a handy haversack.
Makes the spell basically a full round though. Move to retrieve a blade, standard to cast.

I suppose if you were starting a fight with this toss on a spell of magic weapon or something haha.

A magus using this might be interesting..


@Azten

Absolutely no. The descriptor of the spell is Conjuration (creation) not Conjuration (summoning). Swords are not summoned but created.

@Salazar

Thank you for clarifying the ambiguity.


MATMATMAT! wrote:

@Wroy

Interesting interpretation, but i think that by reading spell perfection it is more immediate to say "yes it works". Isn't the weapon damage an essential aspect of the spell? It also varies if different sword is chosen as a material component.

I see your point, but there are other spells that create the exact same effect and they can be surely maximisable/empowerable. For example Acid Arrow. Conjuration (creation), no SR, creates an arrow.

Acid Arrow creates acid in an effect shaped like an arrow; storm of blades creates duplicates of a weapon consumed as a material component, and explicitly states that the weapons deal damage as a weapon. I wouldn't let a player apply empower or maximize the damage any more than I would let them apply those feats to a violent thrust effect of telekinesis. It's not spell damage, but weapon damage.

That said, there's a reason I worded my initial post as calling it questionable and debatable. I can certainly see how someone would interpret this spell as being able to benefit from empower/maximize, but I think it's a stretch of the RAW and against the RAI for the both the feats and spell.

EDIT: On an unrelated tangent, the spell says nothing about carrying special material quality across from the material component to the conjured weapons... I wonder what the intent is for this spell. Makes DR eat it up even faster if, for example, you can't blast a cold iron weapon into a storm of blades.


I really can't see the difference between a weapon made of acid and one made of metal for a conjurer or a wizard in general. Is the material (and material component) what makes the difference between spell damage and weapon damage in a spell?

I like your comparison with Telekinesis spell. But i think that the case of Storm of Blades is different. A blade is expended as a material component but not thrown by the force of a spell as in Telekinesis. So blades are actually created by the spell so my opinion is that it is reasonable to think that they are integral part of it. If the blades were weapons separated from the spell, they shouldn't istantly disappear.

I was also wondering what happens if you expend a weapon made of special materials, but the wording of the spell seems to not allow it, but is really unclear what means "standard sword".

English is not my first language (as you can read).
If my tone seems rude or impolite i apologize in advance, i don't mean to.

EDIT: What i am trying to figure out is which interpretation should be RAW and which RAI.


MATMATMAT! wrote:

@Azten

Absolutely no. The descriptor of the spell is Conjuration (creation) not Conjuration (summoning). Swords are not summoned but created.

@Salazar

Thank you for clarifying the ambiguity.

The spell itself is still not dealing the damage. The swords are.


As far as the build-

Can a level 1 wizard cast level 3 spells?
I *thought* you couldn't cast spells over your level...

So fighter 1/wizard 3 before your first level in EK..

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Redchigh wrote:
So fighter 1/wizard 3 before your first level in EK..

I assume he is some race that gets a SLA that allows early entry to EK.


James Risner wrote:
Redchigh wrote:
So fighter 1/wizard 3 before your first level in EK..
I assume he is some race that gets a SLA that allows early entry to EK.

He mentioned an elf... I guess its besides the point though.


There is a named magic dagger that you can split into two, then use to throw one, then split again.... I can't remember which it is, but I think it'd be great to use for this spell.

However wouldn't the ancestral gift from the ancestor oracle be a great use for this?


Snort, it's the return of the master of the unseen hand TK sword storm. Time for the return of the colossal sized great sword doing 8d6 X 5.


Azten wrote:
The spell itself is still not dealing the damage. The swords are.

Can you explain your point more clearly? I really can't see in the text anything suggesting this interpretation over mine. I am trying to compare this spell to others with the same descriptor and duration, and i can't see why it shouldn't be maximizable. The differences with other spells of its kind are basically 2. The first is that other creation spells often require a ranged touch attack and not an attack roll to hit, the second is in damage description where is stated that it deals damage AS a standard sword of the type EXPENDED. There are also spells that create a weapon (with non maximizable damage, i think) but the wording is quite different Icicle Dagger .

So the only point that can rise the assumption that the weapon is not part of the spell ( expecially in regards of damage) is that it requires an attack roll instead of a touch attack, but it seems in disaccordance whit the fact that the duration is istantaneous and the swords disappear after hitting or missing, which makes it very similar to Snowball and which makes me assume that the effect is inseparable from the spell itself.

The first level Wizard is a diviner specialist with Scryer subschool which gives him 3rd level SLA, sorry guys for non specifying that.


Glutton wrote:
Snort, it's the return of the master of the unseen hand TK sword storm. Time for the return of the colossal sized great sword doing 8d6 X 5.

It would be awesome if the damage scaled with the size of the weapon used! haha

What about Spell Perfection ? the bonuses from feats listed above can be doubled or not?

Scarab Sages

The scryer subschool of divination gives access to Clairaudience/clairvoyance as a SLA, so it counts as having a 3rd level spell. Thus early access to EK.


I'm not so sure the scryer subschool power qualifies as being able to cast Clairaudience/Clairvoyance as an SLA. The power even has a unique name, Send Senses. From what I understand, "...otherwise functions as" =/= "...cast as a spell-like ability."


I would say yes to 2, 3, 4 and 6 but no to 1 and i dont know to 5.
I Fail to see how this would be the ultimate even if 1 and 5 is ok so i am curious about a full built.
You cannot get improved crit before you have bab +8.
And as a side note i think it is a ill concived Spell there is no SR and the swords dissaper after attacking seems contratadicting.


This seems like a "meh" trick to me. A 20th level character that gets 10 attacks at +21 to hit? A sohei can get more attacks with higher bonuses, and still have +30 damage per hit. And barbarians still hit harder than that.

Heck, just plain old telekinesis can let you throw 15 large greatswords for 3d6 per with higher attack bonuses, and that doesn't require a special build at all.

The only thing at all special about this is the potential for flat bonuses to damage, and there are a lot of ambiguities with how much you'd get.


I undestand that it is level 9 you get improved crit. That is ok.
But i dont undestand how +21 to hit can be any thing but terrible at level 20 assuming you get to cast the Spell 2 times in the first round and 3 times until you run out of con.
A hornes devil is CR 16 and have AC 35 even if you manage to combined the GM of all the metamagic and Spell perfektion gorgonzola and find a way to defeatet his damage reduction you will need two casting to take him out. That is not ultimate. But if i have over looked somthing, and i often do, please tell me.


Brotato wrote:
I'm not so sure the scryer subschool power qualifies as being able to cast Clairaudience/Clairvoyance as an SLA. The power even has a unique name, Send Senses. From what I understand, "...otherwise functions as" =/= "...cast as a spell-like ability."

There was actually a FAQ on this exact subject. Yes, it counts.

No, I don't know where that FAQ is.


I had another thread about this spell but i think most of my questions were beaten to it by this one. anywho, here are my questions left about the spell:

Do boosts to hit/damage from haste (note:the hit bonus, not the extra attack) Bless, Bardic performance, feats, void wizards and the rest apply?

Does strength modifier apply? if i use a two handed sword as the component do i use 1.5 STR mod?

Can i really use this spell to destroy the ancient evil mcguffin sword of doomness? That is kind of silly but if i am a Magus or Dragon Disciple than here is an interesting option in a grapple, yeah?

If i am enlarged than my component sword is enlarged too, and the spell's swords are just based off that sword, never held or dropped so they would be based off the enlarged damage dice, correct?

"Sword" isnt a defined weapon group so... how about daggers and the like?

I havent worked out the math on this one but mixing in something with sneak attack to get multiple ranged sneak attacks off from a standard action in the first round looks kinda good.

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