Invulnerable Rager!


Advice

Silver Crusade

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So I am gearing up to run Mummy's Mask, and have a player considering playing an invulnerable rager. What do you people think? Is it too powerful?

On a note, I am also running what is likely to be a 5 man team, so I am anticipating having to up the encounters at times.

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Not really, it's a neat thing though. I don't know what Mummy's Mask is like, but it sounds like it'd have traps and ambushes, so I'd probably prefer the default Barbarian kit there.


Invulnerable rager isn't by itself overpowered. The superstitious line up to spell sunder isn't over powered. Beast totem isn't overpowered. Picking up extra damage reduction as a rage power isn't overpowered. Come and Get me isn't overpowered, but if you combine all of the above especially on a human using alternate racials to get his saves into the stratosphere then you are probably facing one of the top martials in the game. All he needs is PA and enough system mastery to reliable rage cycle and he'll literally tear encounters to shreds. Lightly season with dazing assault at 13th for good measure. If everyone else knows how to build characters as well then you'll probably need to up the encounters around 75-100%.

Grand Lodge

Is there a full caster player?

Silver Crusade

Thus far....Necromancer/undead sorc (turn undead not command), Paladin (undead scourge), Cleric of Nethys, and some type of other arcane (illusionist? transmuter? bard?). Since we have like 5 people, and heavy on arcane (our necromancer is likely to be deployed for a few months this summer, so he will miss some action, I am hesitant to allow this invulnerable action. Maybe in a 3 man crew but not 5?

That said, I don't want to have to rewrite stuff to challenge to much


it's not overpowered at all, even with the whole kit involved, it is potent, compared to say a fighter, rogue, cavalier or monk, but it isn't broken compared to a paladin, ranger, bloodrager, magus or other 4th-6th level spellcaster


I'd say the Paladin is going to come off far more overpowered in Mummy's Mask.

Grand Lodge

Yeah.

There is no Martial archetype will outshine your full caster.

Maybe, they will be pretty hot stuff for a few levels, but eventually, the caster will dominate the scene.

So, Invulnerable Rager will not be a problem.


The Rager is the marginally better than the default Barbarian. Any strength of the Rager is a function of not his mad uber DR 10/- at level 20, or his Endure Elements, but just the general awesomeness of Barbarians in general.'

Rager is basically one of two answers to the question "would you rather have a few percent more functional hp, or never ever get sneak attacked?".

Having lots of hp and dr has never been a way for characters to be overpowered. You need enough hp and other defenses not to get suckerpunched, sure, but no matter how many hp you've got, there's a line between "can survive being in melee" and "why are you even DOING that?". Smart play good tactics grant a lot more survivability than Barbarian DR.


If you have paladins, wizards and sorcerers then i think you will have to explain what it is you fear a barbarian can do.

Sczarni

yeah it sounds amazingly good and stuff, but when you realise your barbarian is nearly always getting hit it's not a big deal.

The big bad guys, will have to chip away at him, but they can and will hurt him.


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Talos the Talon! wrote:

So I am gearing up to run Mummy's Mask, and have a player considering playing an invulnerable rager. What do you people think? Is it too powerful?

On a note, I am also running what is likely to be a 5 man team, so I am anticipating having to up the encounters at times.

No one will ever say anything is to powerful in answer to a question here. All will assume some situational position/build and circumstance where casters are better and buy into the whole nonsense of tiers and other assorted masquerades and shenanigans.

From the above however you can already gather
1. Barbarians are at their most basic a very good martial class.
2. Invulnerable rager is the cream of the barbarian crop.

Assuming the player has chosen this build because their a good mechanical builder, or more likely their are plagiarists that cherry pick from guides without thought for the game, role playing, creativity, character or concepts like freedom of will - it really comes down to the other players. If they are not building to equal standards sooner or later they will be marginalized and the barbarian will be bored.

Its more about having a balanced functional party where all get equal time and contribution (and so your responses and npc power increasing will effect all equally).

Only you who sees all the characters/knows them/their skill level can judge that.


The above post oversimplifies party balance. System mastery matters a great deal in Pathfinder. If you have one optimization genius (or plagiarist, for that matter) and a couple weekend warriors, or vice versa, you'll have issues no matter what classes they play.

Barbarian is a strong martial class. There are a lot of strong classes.

I also find it offensive that it's just assumed most players who want to play strong builds have no thought for the game, roleplaying, creativity, character, or freedom of will. As someone with a decent amount of system mastery, I don't make belittling generalizations or stereotypes about how much they care about the game. If anything, the optimizers probably care more, because, at a minimum, they care enough to get good at the game.

But I do agree it all boils down to how everyone else is in relation to this guy. For all I know, he picked Rager because it sounds cool and he'll get spanked by the TWF Fighter in the group.

Ask him where he plans on taking his build. If he says "rager, beast totem, spell sunder, human alt racials, CAGM, and Dazing Assault" (thanks for the summary, Prof. Tobe), yeah, he might trivialize some encounters. But again, it's not just the pick of Rager.

Grand Lodge

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The best roleplayers play mounted Rogue/Monks with average scores in every stat, so they can sit atop their high horses, and scoff at anyone with a mechanically functional build.

System mastery of any kind is simply a symptom of one's inability to roleplay, or create flavorful backgrounds. Staring blankly at every session, this creature lives only to roll the dice, and "win the game" with his PC.


It is a great archetype and probably how the default barbs should be in the first place.

I totally agree with Jaunt and blackbloodtroll (his sarcasm anyway). Reward your player for investing time to aquire a good grasp of the rules, do not punishing.


Jaunt wrote:


I also find it offensive that it's just assumed most players who want to play strong builds have no thought for the game, roleplaying, creativity, character, or freedom of will. As someone with a decent amount of system mastery, I don't make belittling generalizations or stereotypes about how much they care about the game. If anything, the optimizers probably care more, because, at a minimum, they care enough to get good at the game.

Ask him where he plans on taking his build. If he says "rager, beast totem, spell sunder, human alt racials, CAGM, and Dazing Assault" (thanks for the summary, Prof. Tobe), yeah, he might trivialize some encounters. But again, it's not just the pick of Rager.

Could not agree more with the first paragraph. Perfectly said.

Add a one lvl dip in unbreakable fighter and the stalwart - improved stalwart feat tree to the mix. :)

Should be noted though that these choices do not break the game in any way, they just make the said barbarian a very effective martial.

A master summoner or a high lvl arcane / divine (less so) caster will break your game.

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blackbloodtroll wrote:

The best roleplayers play mounted Rogue/Monks with average scores in every stat, so they can sit atop their high horses, and scoff at anyone with a mechanically functional build.

At least they've mastered the action economy.


lantzkev wrote:

yeah it sounds amazingly good and stuff, but when you realise your barbarian is nearly always getting hit it's not a big deal.

The big bad guys, will have to chip away at him, but they can and will hurt him.

Indeed they can, but much less than usual.

There's a trade-off between Invulnerable Rager and standard Barbarian. I often find myself missing Uncanny Dodge (especially when it comes to ambushing spellcasters and such), but on the flip side all the hits I take on mine...I'd probably be dead without the DR anyway.

I never miss Trap Sense though.

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