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I see this a lot on the forums in reference to bards. Bards are fifth wheel, fluff, no good unless you actually already have a party intact. That to me being a bard playing fanatic, seems like an insult. However with the rules the way they are currently in Paizo, I almost have to agree. I have a few grumbles with the bard as they currently sit, but not going to harp on that.
Then I have a gamemaster who claims bards are broken, too powerful, and need to be nerfed. He hates it when I use fascinate to effect crowd control. He also hates it if I charm his precious npcs and turn them against one another. He says I cause him no end of headaches with the shenanigans I pull playing a bard. Me? I am just having fun.
I come from the viewpoint that a bard is my favorite class by far. Bards are shepherds of life. They are larger than life, and very fun. Bards greatest strengths though come from creativity, and adaptation. A bard needs to be a tactician, flexible, and spontaneous. You mix those qualities together, and watch the magic happen.
Don't know that I've seen people belittle bards around here. They are generally accepted as being one of the better classes (not one of the tops, but nowhere near the bottom either).
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did you invent a time machine?
did I invent a time machine?
how did we go back in time?
Bards are THE best support class, IMHO. But in many ways they ARE a fifth wheel, because they can fill in somewhat the role of any of the "big four" while at the same time being able to do the skill-monkey role completely if they put their minds to it.
Bards are great at making everyone else do what they do better as well, which is never to be sneezed at.
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Bards are awesome! One of my favorite characters I've GMed for was a combat-control Bard who was the only arcane caster in the party.
The 'fifth wheel' aspect comes from two things:
1) Bards have a hard time entirely filling one of the 'core niche' roles: Fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric. (You might note, though, they can do a fair job at any of them.) So if you sub a Bard into a four-person party, you might need other substitutions, or a better sense of system mastery when building your characters (an unfocused bard can rapidly become dead weight in a 4-member party).
2) A bard's signature ability, Inspire Courage, works better the more people in the party are making attack rolls. This means a bard is better in a 5-member or 6-member party instead of a 4-member party.
People on these boards love bards. At least most of them. If I understand Lamontius right, you seem to have your information from a time once upon a long ago.
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Personally I'd take a bard over a rogue in any party. With archetypes the bar can completely sub for the rogue and offer appreciably more to a party.
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They aren't a fifth wheel, they make your regular tires into winter ones, or racing tires. They just make the wheels you have, better.
If you have fun playing a class, then you're already doing it right. Don't even bother listening to anyone else.
If your GM thinks that low level spells and abilities are ruining his/her game, tell them to wait until a bit higher level, when everything doesn't depend on one die roll so much (Sorry jim, I critted your wizard, might as well roll a new one). There are MANY creatures that are mindless, or have high will saves. They also need to understand that a bard is practically useful in every situation, so your character WILL come up a lot.
Hopefully your game goes well, Bhaene!
Particularly with several of their archetypes I dont see bards as a fifth wheel as long as they are designed with the intention of being one of the key roles. There are several bard archetypes that with the proper build could be a party's front line fighter and they definately can be the party skill monkey. Thats 2 of the 4 'traditional' roles.
What I have found is that bards also perform best alongside other flexible characters. So a bard will function better alongside an inquisitor, druid, and magus, instead of fighter, wizard, cleric. Because each character fills part of several roles the same way the bard often does.
As for overpowered...um...huh? Bards? Does the person know wizards dont just have fireball on their spell list?
1) Bards have a hard time entirely filling one of the 'core niche' roles: Fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric. (You might note, though, they can do a fair job at any of them.) So if you sub a Bard into a four-person party, you might need other substitutions, or a better sense of system mastery when building your characters (an unfocused bard can rapidly become dead weight in a 4-member party).
I disagree with this. A well built Bard can easily step up and compete in the Fighter/Rogue category. Dervish of Dawn archetype is awesome for fighter bard and then there's Archaelogist for Rogue.
Cleric/Wizard can't be completely replaced by Bard, because hey full casters. That said they still have a lot to offer in debuffs, battlefield control, and even healing/status effects removal due to that one song they get off the top of my head.
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Ross Dyers; you actually touched on one of my current grumps with the bard class as it sits. A bard's signature should be his songs (plural) not one song. That is the worst thing Paizo did to the class.
I am so glad to see so much positive feedback on bards. Perhaps I was just reading old threads, or the wrong ones. I saw mention of bard as a fifth wheel in five consecutive strings I was reading today.
Thanks you all made me feel better. Huzzah!!!
and .. Oh yes, I wonder what sort of headache I will cause once I get to say even tenth level, and the real madness begins to happen...He thinks I pull shenanigans now?
Ross Dyers; you actually touched on one of my current grumps with the bard class as it sits. A bard's signature should be his songs (plural) not one song. That is the worst thing Paizo did to the class.
I am so glad to see so much positive feedback on bards. Perhaps I was just reading old threads, or the wrong ones. I saw mention of bard as a fifth wheel in five consecutive strings I was reading today.
Thanks you all made me feel better. Huzzah!!!
and .. Oh yes, I wonder what sort of headache I will cause once I get to say even tenth level, and the real madness begins to happen...He thinks I pull shenanigans now?
Actually, a lot of bard songs are pretty good.
Inspire Competence is rather useful when you REALLY need to make that acrobatics check. It also does amazing wonders when combines with Inspire Courage on a Loremaster Fighter (with any of the multitude of spells that let you play 2 songs at once).
Suggestion, when used carefully, can actually work amazing wonders in out of combat scenerios.
Inspire greatness is nasty if you only have 1 fighter
Soothing Performance is a VERY powerful ability when you gain the ability to maintain 2 performances at once.
A lot of the masterpieces are actually VERY effective and remember, most of the bard archetypes trade their songs for other songs...
1) Bards have a hard time entirely filling one of the 'core niche' roles: Fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric. (You might note, though, they can do a fair job at any of them.) So if you sub a Bard into a four-person party, you might need other substitutions, or a better sense of system mastery when building your characters (an unfocused bard can rapidly become dead weight in a 4-member party).I disagree with this. A well built Bard can easily step up and compete in the Fighter/Rogue category. Dervish of Dawn archetype is awesome for fighter bard and then there's Archaelogist for Rogue.
Cleric/Wizard can't be completely replaced by Bard, because hey full casters. That said they still have a lot to offer in debuffs, battlefield control, and even healing/status effects removal due to that one song they get off the top of my head.
I don't disagree. A bard can absolutely compete in any of those fields - if built properly. You don't even need archetypes.
But a stereotypical bard: one who carries a lyre instead of taking Perform (Oratory), who doesn't pick spells with care, who doesn't take melee feats, is going to stay a jack-of-all-trades, and the resulting party is going to have a visible gap.
And similarly, someone who makes an Arcane Duelist with Dervish Dance and no knowledge skills is making a mistake if they're trying to be the only arcane caster or the healer.
And someone who makes a combat-control bard with hideous laughter, grease, and glitterdust is going to have problems if they go into a party where no one has full BAB.
A lot of the newer, particularly 6-level casting classes have similar issues. You just need to be aware of it when building the party. The difference is that the Bard is the only one of those in the Core Rulebook, which means every so often it catches someone off guard before they have the system mastery.
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Bards are like a fifth wheel, in that, when you're driving a big lorry, you have a LOT more than four wheels spinning. It definitely gets better with more eidolons, animal companions, full-attacking martials making lots of attack rolls etcetera.
I'd say that bards do pretty well competing with rogues for the skillmonkey role. Versatile Performance means they've got almost as many skill points going on, and the class skills to make it real. Detect Magic as a cantrip can really help with finding magical traps, and a few of the other spells (Mage Hand, Prestidigitation) might be able to trip traps from a safe distance, allowing you to run past while they reset.
The other part of the rogue, the "dirty fighting" sneak attack - meh. It's not so great anyway. A bard's Inspire Courage and maybe Arcane Strike feat make you a good enough secondary fighter.
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Ross Dyers; you actually touched on one of my current grumps with the bard class as it sits. A bard's signature should be his songs (plural) not one song. That is the worst thing Paizo did to the class.
I am so glad to see so much positive feedback on bards. Perhaps I was just reading old threads, or the wrong ones. I saw mention of bard as a fifth wheel in five consecutive strings I was reading today.
Thanks you all made me feel better. Huzzah!!!
and .. Oh yes, I wonder what sort of headache I will cause once I get to say even tenth level, and the real madness begins to happen...He thinks I pull shenanigans now?
Actually, a lot of bard songs are pretty good.
Inspire Competence is rather useful when you REALLY need to make that acrobatics check. It also does amazing wonders when combines with Inspire Courage on a Loremaster Fighter (with any of the multitude of spells that let you play 2 songs at once).
Suggestion, when used carefully, can actually work amazing wonders in out of combat scenerios.
Inspire greatness is nasty if you only have 1 fighter
Soothing Performance is a VERY powerful ability when you gain the ability to maintain 2 performances at once.
A lot of the masterpieces are actually VERY effective and remember, most of the bard archetypes trade their songs for other songs...
My view is that a bard should be able to do two songs from level one, three songs maintained by level five, four songs maintained by level 10, five songs by level 16, and six songs at 21+. The songs available are sweet. I love them, but there should be more. This would make bards a very attractive class indeed.
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Bards are one of my favorite class. Right up there with druid as far as mechanics go.
My view is that a bard should be able to do two songs from level one, three songs maintained by level five, four songs maintained by level 10, five songs by level 16, and six songs at 21+. The songs available are sweet. I love them, but there should be more. This would make bards a very attractive class indeed.Ross Dyers; you actually touched on one of my current grumps with the bard class as it sits. A bard's signature should be his songs (plural) not one song. That is the worst thing Paizo did to the class.
I am so glad to see so much positive feedback on bards. Perhaps I was just reading old threads, or the wrong ones. I saw mention of bard as a fifth wheel in five consecutive strings I was reading today.
Thanks you all made me feel better. Huzzah!!!
and .. Oh yes, I wonder what sort of headache I will cause once I get to say even tenth level, and the real madness begins to happen...He thinks I pull shenanigans now?
Actually, a lot of bard songs are pretty good.
Inspire Competence is rather useful when you REALLY need to make that acrobatics check. It also does amazing wonders when combines with Inspire Courage on a Loremaster Fighter (with any of the multitude of spells that let you play 2 songs at once).
Suggestion, when used carefully, can actually work amazing wonders in out of combat scenerios.
Inspire greatness is nasty if you only have 1 fighter
Soothing Performance is a VERY powerful ability when you gain the ability to maintain 2 performances at once.
A lot of the masterpieces are actually VERY effective and remember, most of the bard archetypes trade their songs for other songs...
Haha very true.
Personally I find the bard one of the most flavourful classes in the game. Additionally I find that the bard is one of the shining examples when it comes to archetypes. Bards have some of the coolest and mechanically sound archetypes around (note how I said mechanically sound, not most powerful or broken). With things like Dervish of Dawn, Sandman, Archeologiest, Arcane Duelist, Sound Striker, and Magician you can quite easily do many different roles.
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What is this I don't even...
Bards rock.
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What is this I don't even...
Bards rock.
(Bard uses Inspire Courage)
I WANNA ROCK!! ROCK!!!
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OP, I don't know anyone with experience who doesn't appreciate a well-made Bard. I'm glad you like them, rock on.
Your GM thinks they are overpowered? Well, they are not, but it does depend on the player. If you are intent on squeezing every drop of usefulness of of your Bard, then there is something good you can do every round, in and out of combat, which not many classes can claim. bards have swords, spells, performances and massive skills, does your GM expect you to do nothing?
I love them, and I am not the only one.
As an example, my current Bard is an Arcane Duellist with Orc Eldritch Heritage (high Cha, why not)? He has several Swift and Immediate spells, he has crazy Str, a scaling magic weapon, he is an excellent Gish.
But he's also got exceptional knowledge, diplomacy and can chip in with a bit of healing and inspiring the rest of the party. He's the swashbuckling hero of Absolom's docks and would help any party.
I can see a GM thinking they are -- especially after 7th level when they can easily add 4 to everyone's attack roll and damage roll in one round. That's enough to make a fighter out of a rogue and a death dealing nasty out of the fighter while improving his own abilities as well, and they are exponentially more power the more party members there are too.
This is of course ignoring some of their unique spells such as inspire gallantry.
A bard can absolutely compete in any of those fields - if built properly. You don't even need archetypes.
But a stereotypical bard: one who carries a lyre instead of taking Perform (Oratory), who doesn't pick spells with care, who doesn't take melee feats, is going to stay a jack-of-all-trades, and the resulting party is going to have a visible gap.
A lot of the newer, particularly 6-level casting classes have similar issues. You just need to be aware of it when building the party. The difference is that the Bard is the only one of those in the Core Rulebook, which means every so often it catches someone off guard before they have the system mastery.
This...
With the exception that even a poorly built vanilla Bard will still be a great '5th wheel' augmenter for a standard party,or even a non-standard party that manages to cover the roles well enough that such a Bard can work great as murderhobo #4.
Some archetypes could fail that if poorly built, but that is outside the CRB, and shouldn't be used without system mastery.
Our party (3 players, 4 PCs) has a GMPC support bard. We chose this because it seemed to reduce the risk of omniscience. Additionally, lullaby has been extremely useful to my slumber-hex witch. Essentially, we have 3 secondary healers (bard, witch, paladin), 2 secondary skill-monkeys (bard, trapper ranger), and a trapfinder (trapper ranger). Obviously, we also have a full caster and 2 full-BAB types. I would not trade the bard for any other class.
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Depending upon their spells known, skills trained, and their archetypes if any; a bard can be a fifth wheel,
a steering wheel,
an airbag and seat belt,
the air conditioning,
the catalytic converter,
the headlights,
the rollover cage,
the hydraulic lifts,
the monster truck tires,
the spoiler,
the anti-lock brakes,
the suspension,
the windshield,
or, of course, the radio.
the best performances for a bard are
Dancing
Oratory
Acting
Comedy
Singing
none of which require an instrument, and 3 of which can be done in a field of silence
they are all fairly traditional bardic performances too. maybe not a lyre or lute, but still fairly iconic
my favorite bard had Dancing, Acting, Oratory and Puppetry as her Versatile Performances, Puppetry houseruled to benefit Disable Device and Sleight of hand.
she was intelligence primary, charisma secondary, dumped strength down to 5 and constitution down to 7. she may have been heavily houseruled, but she was the buffer, support caster, trapfinder, face, and battlefield controller of the party. she may has been a sickly little noble born half-nymph girl with a love for theatrics, but she was also a decent assassin due to an imported version of intelligent blademaster borrowed from 4th edition and converted.
What kind of threads have you been reading?
Seriously, post links to them i would really like to see them.
To answer your questions, now bards aren't 5th wheels, most monks and most rogues are but most bards aren't, and no they usually aren't overpowered either.
We houserule that bards can maintain more than performance at a time, but you cannot start more than one per round and, of course, you have to pay for all performances that you are maintaining. Given the cost of actions and the relatively short duration of combats, though, it is rare that I have more than one up at a time (but I have maintained two at once a handful of times).
Core-only bards only supported the jack-of-all-trades play style. So if you tried to do anything else, it would be rather difficult.
Core-only bards only supported the jack-of-all-trades play style. So if you tried to do anything else, it would be rather difficult.
Not necessarily true, you just had to try not to focus on too much. Core Bards made pretty decent archers, after all. Sitting back with a bow and firing while using Inspire Courage after you've gotten your essential buff spells up (Haste, Good Hope etc) and you were still very effective.
The Core Bard is mainly a support character with decent secondary damage. As other books came out with archetypes, spells, feats, even favored class choices, the Bard went from primarily support, to secondary frontliner and even primary arcane caster has (weak) potential.
The Bard is, in my opinion, one of the most balanced classes in Pathfinder. It's strong in a number of areas, but it takes some real system mastery to build an 'OMGBROKEN' Bard, unlike what is necessary for 9-th level Casters, Barbarians and Paladins.
Core-only bards only supported the jack-of-all-trades play style. So if you tried to do anything else, it would be rather difficult.Not necessarily true, you just had to try not to focus on too much. Core Bards made pretty decent archers, after all. Sitting back with a bow and firing while using Inspire Courage after you've gotten your essential buff spells up (Haste, Good Hope etc) and you were still very effective.
The Core Bard is mainly a support character with decent secondary damage. As other books came out with archetypes, spells, feats, even favored class choices, the Bard went from primarily support, to secondary frontliner and even primary arcane caster has (weak) potential.
The Bard is, in my opinion, one of the most balanced classes in Pathfinder. It's strong in a number of areas, but it takes some real system mastery to build an 'OMGBROKEN' Bard, unlike what is necessary for 9-th level Casters, Barbarians and Paladins.
That's what I meant by jack or all trades.
They have good skills, spellcasting, and full-attacks.
A fifth wheel? I like to think of them more as a spare tire. (Insert rim shot here).
Seriously, bards are like that Swiss army knife or Leatherman tool that you keep in your pocket. They are useful in a pinch for a lot of things, but not your primary tool for the task at hand.
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What kind of threads have you been reading?
Seriously, post links to them i would really like to see them.To answer your questions, now bards aren't 5th wheels, most monks and most rogues are but most bards aren't, and no they usually aren't overpowered either.
I think this is my bad...I went back to those posts. I had to find them by doing a search, oops they were all originally posted between 2006 and 2011. I am so sorry all, so Lamontius I guess I did warp back in time. Lesson learned, check dates first. Once again sorry, I got a little excited.
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Bards... the Duct Tape of Pathfinder!
I think this is my bad...I went back to those posts. I had to find them by doing a search, oops they were all originally posted between 2006 and 2011. I am so sorry all, so Lamontius I guess I did warp back in time. Lesson learned, check dates first. Once again sorry, I got a little excited.What kind of threads have you been reading?
Seriously, post links to them i would really like to see them.To answer your questions, now bards aren't 5th wheels, most monks and most rogues are but most bards aren't, and no they usually aren't overpowered either.
Oh yeah if you were to compare my posts from then to now you would get whiplash if you didn't realize we were talking about two completely different classes.
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Don't feel bad - Reading your post made me happy because it made me, once again, appreciate how much PF Bards have improved compared to the original 3.x version.
And yes, bards rock.
And yes, bards rock.
Like a hurricane.
Don't feel bad - Reading your post made me happy because it made me, once again, appreciate how much PF Bards have improved compared to the original 3.x version.
And yes, bards rock.
I can assure that especially with Sublime Chord giving Bard 9th level spellcasting, multiple ways to stack your Inspire Courage to much higher numbers, the ability to turn +1 and damage into 1d6 elemental damage and several excellent magic items, 3.5 Bards were in fact the Lords of the Dance.
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I can assure that especially with Sublime Chord giving Bard 9th level spellcasting, multiple ways to stack your Inspire Courage to much higher numbers, the ability to turn +1 and damage into 1d6 elemental damage and several excellent magic items, 3.5 Bards were in fact the Lords of the Dance.
Ah, I meant the original version - as in core-only Bard. The original class was rather sad, though it certainly got more fun if you started piling on the splat books. Dragonfire Inspiration in particular was terrifying if it caught your GM unawares.
Unfortunately my 3.5 group stuck to core for the longest time since we couldn't afford fancy new RPG books back then, so we didn't really get the chance to play the full field.
Ah, Core-only... well in that case safely disregard the last post. I've only ever done Core-only 3.5 (as a player) once and that's mostly because it was a new group of people some of which had never played before. It's kind of sad because 3.5 really had some great ideas towards the end that 4E could have built on. The "multiclassing feats", Binder, the Dread Necromancer/Beguiler, Tome of Battle classes and the Alternate Class features (though Archetypes are sort of bundled versions of these, I miss the pick and choose) could have been really neat to see, but alas.