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Teddy Rosy: The Most Damaging Martial?


Advice

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Grand Lodge

Claxon wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
its legal, done it several times in PFS ;)

That doesn't really say much. It could be a lenient GM who doesn't know.

I'm honestly not sure, because being mounted does change some things, but the general rule is vital strike is it's own separate action from charging. I also understand that when you're mount charges you are not using your action to charge, but you are still limited to a single attack at the end of that charge. I'm not positively sure how they should interact.

Mounted charges work like this: You spend a move action to direct your mount to charge, which gives you the standard bonuses and penalties for chargine (-2 AC, +2 to hit) but explicitly doesn't count as you charging yourself. At the end of your mount's charge you have a standard action left, which you use to vital strike.


Jeff Merola wrote:
Claxon wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
its legal, done it several times in PFS ;)

That doesn't really say much. It could be a lenient GM who doesn't know.

I'm honestly not sure, because being mounted does change some things, but the general rule is vital strike is it's own separate action from charging. I also understand that when you're mount charges you are not using your action to charge, but you are still limited to a single attack at the end of that charge. I'm not positively sure how they should interact.

Mounted charges work like this: You spend a move action to direct your mount to charge, which gives you the standard bonuses and penalties for chargine (-2 AC, +2 to hit) but explicitly doesn't count as you charging yourself. At the end of your mount's charge you have a standard action left, which you use to vital strike.

I mean it seems pretty reasonable. Except guiding your mount doesn't require a move action. As I understand it, you still have a move action you could use, but since you have to wait for your mount to get to the enemy you can't make a full attack.

In any event, getting double weapon damage on a mounted charge still isn't really that big a deal. Especially if it isn't multiplied if using a lance (which I don't think it is because of how Vital Strike works, but again I am unsure).

I wish Paizo would tackle the mounted combat rules again because there really are quite a few things that are unclear.

Shadow Lodge

Okay, let's take a look! I'll probably grab a few of the stronger builds and make full builds of them on the Guide to the Builds.

Teddy is hitting at 81 DPR, 263 over 3 rounds.

Wiggz Fighter/Rogue:???:

The only we numbers we are given here are the level 17 damage: 22d6+43 non-lethal. Now, its difficult to compare these, given that no attack bonus is listed and he is so reliant on sneak attack. We can guess he is maybe attacking at +17 at level 12 (which is generous), giving him a 50% chance to hit a standard CR 12 enemy. Even if he was dealing the same damage at level 12 that he is at 17 (obviously not the case) That's a DPR of 60, which isn't close. Wiggz would need an attack of +23 to break even, and that assumes he is getting sneak attack and the enemy isn't immune to non-lethal. This is strictly worse.

Rorek's Charger: 384:

That means you do 128DPR, or 384 damage over three rounds, blowing Teddy out of the water. Of course, you'll still have to deal with attacks of opportunity and you'll need to be able to be mounted, but hey, it's a stellar result!

@Sub Zero: Not sure what the average is at this level, but lets say 27.

Jon Otaguro's Two-Weapon Ranger:258:

Looks great. We have DPR 86, three round damage 258. However, we can only do it against 4 enemies a day with guide (or against specific enemies with favored enemy), so I'd probably call this a tie at best. As an FYI, you can get a bit more damage out of that build here (91DPR).

@Alex Mack: I'm not seeing a full build there with feat list and point buy. Can you provide one?

@Cap. Darling: No magic items. Also, if you can provide the build that would be great.

Phosphorus's Double Happy:686:

Not surprisingly, the gunslinger is awesome. 229DPR and a three round damage of 686. He does have to ump through some hoops to make it work, and misfires might not be accounted for. However, it's still way out firing anything a non-gunner can bring. .

HaraldKlak's Charger:595:

By mixing barbarian in, we can get a DPR of 181 and a three round damage of 595 by using furious focus. Of course, you'll still have to deal with attacks of opportunity and you'll need to be able to be mounted, but hey, it's a stellar result!

So, to recap. A charging lancer can way outdamage Teddy, but has to deal with a horse, opportunity attacks, and the space to charge. A Gunslinger can way outdamage him because gunslinger. A two-weapon fighting Ranger can barely outdamage him when either using his guide ability (4/day) or favored enemy.

Good stuff! Keep them coming, though I'd love to see any other fairly consistent builds.


I would like to see a two-handed barbarian build compare to Teddy. I think the fighter might have him on damage per attack, but I believe with Greater Beast Totem and Come and Get Me the barbarian probably wins out on total damage over the course of a combat.

Shadow Lodge

Claxon wrote:
I would like to see a two-handed barbarian build compare to Teddy. I think the fighter might have him on damage per attack, but I believe with Greater Beast Totem and Come and Get Me the barbarian probably wins out on total damage over the course of a combat.

Yeah, I would also like to see that. I may make one later for comparison. The only thing is the Two-Handed fighter archetype is really good. The barb will miss out on that.

Shadow Lodge

Is the Bloodrager class comparable?

Shadow Lodge

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Is the Bloodrager class comparable?

Let's not yet.


Broken Zenith wrote:
Claxon wrote:
I would like to see a two-handed barbarian build compare to Teddy. I think the fighter might have him on damage per attack, but I believe with Greater Beast Totem and Come and Get Me the barbarian probably wins out on total damage over the course of a combat.
Yeah, I would also like to see that. I may make one later for comparison. The only thing is the Two-Handed fighter archetype is really good. The barb will miss out on that.

Yeah...it will end up being a quantity versus quality issue. The fighter hits harder. The barbarian may hit 10 more times over the course of combat.


The most damaging martial is likely a challenging order of the sword beast rider cavalier mounted on the strongest mount he can get.

Let's see at level 12. We can assume a +2 weapon, a belt of thunderous charging, and vambraces of the tactician.

As about feats? We'll go human for simplicity's sake.

1 Mounted Combat
1 Ride By Attack
T1 Paired Opportunists
3 Spirited Charge
5 Power Attack
6 Furious Focus
7 Combat Reflexes
9 Trick Riding
9B Skill Focus (Ride)
9T Outflank
11 Improved Bullrush
12 Greater Bullrush

7 Str + 8 Str(AC) + 16 challenge +2 weapon + 12 power attack + 2d6 (7 damage) weapon = 52 x 3 = 156 Damage on the first charge

And.

+5 Str + 2 Weapon + 5 Banner bonus (bonuses from favored class) + 4 Charge + 12 BaB + 5 Challenge = +33 (furious focus negates penalty)

Crit threat on a 19-20/x2

CMB on bullrushes while charging +5 Str + 12 BAB +5 Challenge +4 Charge +5 Banner +4 Feats = 35 CMB

Bull rushing is important in this case since a target bull rushed a mere 5ft. will provoke an AoO from myself and the T-Rex I'm riding.

So, do we have target CMD's for our creature?


TarkXT wrote:

The most damaging martial is likely a challenging order of the sword beast rider cavalier mounted on the strongest mount he can get.

Let's see at level 12. We can assume a +2 weapon, a belt of thunderous charging, and vambraces of the tactician.

As about feats? We'll go human for simplicity's sake.

1 Mounted Combat
1 Ride By Attack
T1 Paired Opportunists
3 Spirited Charge
5 Power Attack
6 Furious Focus
7 Combat Reflexes
9 Trick Riding
9B Skill Focus (Ride)
9T Outflank
11 Improved Bullrush
12 Greater Bullrush

7 Str + 8 Str(AC) + 16 challenge +2 weapon + 12 power attack + 2d6 (7 damage) weapon = 52 x 3 = 156 Damage on the first charge

And.

+5 Str + 2 Weapon + 5 Banner bonus (bonuses from favored class) + 4 Charge + 12 BaB + 5 Challenge = +33 (furious focus negates penalty)

Crit threat on a 19-20/x2

CMB on bullrushes while charging +5 Str + 12 BAB +5 Challenge +4 Charge +5 Banner +4 Feats = 35 CMB

Bull rushing is important in this case since a target bull rushed a mere 5ft. will provoke an AoO from myself and the T-Rex I'm riding.

So, do we have target CMD's for our creature?

No magic items so no +2 weapon no belt and no vambraces. Unless I missed something.

Shadow Lodge

TarkXT wrote:


So, do we have target CMD's for our creature?

Alright, I did the math. Average CMD for a level 12 enemy is a 36.

FYI, we are doing no magic items for this, so be sure to calculate it without those. I know its not realistic for level 12, but we are keeping the comparison static.


Might not make a lot of difference without them. Let's see.

7 Str (can get this without belt anyway and higher if desired) + 8 Str(AC) + 12 challenge + 12 power attack + 1d8 (4.5 damage) weapon = 44.5 x 3 = 133.5 Damage on the first charge

Attack is at +30

CMB is 34.

Do we want to count AC attacks into this? It occurs to me that the sequence would look like this.

Charge:

1. Cavalier and Mount get attack.
2. Cavalier bullrushes smashed target. It provokes AoO from AC and Cavalier granting a +4 bonus on that attack roll.

Round 2. Repeat until enemy dead.

I'm just working this out before I try to calculate this into DPR.

Shadow Lodge

If the Animal companion is gained from a class feature (as it is for the cavalier), then sure. If not, no. If you give me the attack and damage, then I can do the dpr really quick.


1: exotic weapon proficiency, Weapon Focus: Falchion, Furious Focus
2: Combat Expertise
3: Improved Trip
4: Weapon Specialization
5: Power Attack
6: Greater Trip
7: Combat Reflexes
8: Improved Critical
9: Critical Focus
10: Greater Weapon Focus
11: Improved Sunder
12: Greater Weapon Specialization
13: Sundering Strike
14: Staggering Critical
15: Blinding Critical
16: Critical Mastery
17: Stunning Critical
18: Iron Will
19: Improved Iron Will
20: Improved Initiative

STR: 20 (18+2)
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 13
WIS:7
CHA: 7

This should be the exact same DPR as Teddy, but instead of using the last attack to swing, instead attempt a trip. Instead of +8 he'll be at +14 for trip. This means his Attack of Opportunity will generate an attack at a +19 bonus.

I'm terrible at the DPR calculator, but this should be a situationally higher DPR for a more situation ability.


Ken Doll

Tiefling/Demon Spawn/Paladin

Str 22

Dex 12

Con 12

Int 8

Wis 7

Charisma 16

Feats
1. Armor of the Pit

3. Power Attack

5. Furious Focus

7. Weapon Focus (Nodachi)

9. Improved Critical (Nodachi)

11. Critical Focus (Nodachi)
-----
The Paladin is going to spend his first turn activating divine bond and smite evil making his attacks on the second and third turn

+25/+16/+11 I am going to assume the monster is evil but not an evil outsider
1d10+36 for damage on each swing

He also has a bite for +12 1d6+19

During the second turn as a swift action he activates litany of righteousness doubling all damage done, he does this again for the second turn. He could litany of righteousness on all three rounds, but he would lose smite evil and divine bond.

So his first round dpr is 0
His second round dpr is going to be 151.6
His third round dpr is going to be the same 151.6

So over three rounds his dpr is 303.2
And his average per round is 101

I don't think the Paladin actually fills the criteria for Martial but I do think the comparison should be made.

He also has a bite for +12 1d6+19 that would bump his dpr on that nova to 323.3

Shadow Lodge

@Vehas - Looks good, nice clear formatting. Quick question, would he be able to do this whole routine twice in one day?


No he would not. He could smite evil and full attack, and if the fights are within 12 minutes of each other he could have a divine bond up still. He still has one divine bond left.

But he would have one litany left three smites left and one divine bond left.

Unless there was someway he could prepare a second level spell in a third level slot he would not be able to do this routine again.


Vehas wrote:


No he would not. He could smite evil and full attack, and if the fights are within 12 minutes of each other he could have a divine bond up still. He still has one divine bond left.

But he would have one litany left three smites left and one divine bond left.

Unless there was someway he could prepare a second level spell in a third level slot he would not be able to do this routine again. But he could double his damage with a litany one more round that day.

Shadow Lodge

Vehas wrote:


Unless there was someway he could prepare a second level spell in a third level slot he would not be able to do this routine again.

Somebody speak up if I'm wrong, but I think you actually can prepare lower level spells in higher level slots. If that's the case, then he would be able to do this twice in fights a couple hours apart?


Vehas wrote:

The Paladin is going to spend his first turn activating divine bond and smite evil making his attacks on the second and third turn

Haven't done the numbers, but going by gut feeling, I think he'll able to dish more damage without activating divine bond. Just smite evil and full-round from the first round.


Broken Zenith wrote:

...

@Cap. Darling: No magic items. Also, if you can provide the build that would be great.

...

It is not gonna cut it without magic items. We need some of the item stuff to rule the galaxy as father and son.

But i will keep thinking:)

Shadow Lodge

gustavo iglesias wrote:
Vehas wrote:

The Paladin is going to spend his first turn activating divine bond and smite evil making his attacks on the second and third turn

Haven't done the numbers, but going by gut feeling, I think he'll able to dish more damage without activating divine bond. Just smite evil and full-round from the first round.

I would agree with this. Unless the divine bond adds more than 50.6 to each round's damage, then he's better off attacking.

Shadow Lodge

@Sub-Zero - I like that a lot, but its worth noting that that version would be a bit squishier. He's missing out on 2 hp per level, 1 fort and 1 will save, and 1 AC. Also, is he only tripping at +14? The average CMD at that level is 36, which means he'll only hit on a crit. And that's before taking into account 4 legged creatures and creatures that can't be tripped. It's probably too much of a feat investment for such a low return.


Did the math without a bite he does 249.665 over three rounds. He still needs to spend the first round activating smite evil and the second two rounds doing litany of righteousness. Divine bond is a pretty huge buff, it's a +3 weapon as a standard action. So it actually wins out over full attacking.


How about a eidolon with out its summoner? 5 slam can deliver ok i think.

Would be somthing like

Sidekick the sidekick.

Biped Eidolon 16 evo points
extra evolutions
Arms x2 (4)
Slam attack x5 (5)
Large (4)
Improved damage (slam)(1) Raises slams to 3d6
Minor magic(1)
And one more(1)
Feats:
Improved natural attack slam now at 4d6
Weapon focus (Slam)
Power attack
Improved Crit(slam)
Arcane strike
And one more
With one stat increase in str
Str 30
bab 9 +10(str)-1(large)+1(weapon focus)-3(power attack)+16
Dam will be 4d6+10+6+2
By my calculation around 88 pr round
and 264 in 3 rounds.
Just above the target number, not bad for a side kick.
Edit: for miscalculation


Broken Zenith wrote:
If the Animal companion is gained from a class feature (as it is for the cavalier), then sure. If not, no. If you give me the attack and damage, then I can do the dpr really quick.

Okie dokie let me jsut put Bloodfeast the Extremeinator together.

Str 26, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 16, Cha 10

HD 10

Feats
1 Power Attack
3 Weapon Focus (Bite)
5 Paired Opportunist
9 Furious Focus

So the attack while charging would be...

+7 Bab + 5 Banner +2 Challenge + 1 weapon focus + 8 Strength +2 charge = +25 attack

+16 Str + 4 power attack +7 (bite) + 6 challenge = 33 damage

So!

Round 1

With the cavalier wielding a lance that deals 1d8 19-20/x2

Challenge, charge:

Cavalier Attack: +31
Cavalier Damage: 133.5 damage

T-Rex Attack: +25
T-Rex Damage: 33 Damage

Cavalier Bullrushes opponent with a CMB of 34.

This provokes an AoO from the T-rex and Cavalier. This I don't think counts as a charge changing numbers considerably.

Cavalier AoO: 23 attack and 44.5 damage

T-Rex AoO: +22 attack and 33 damage

Repeat for 3 rounds. IF they live that long.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

@Cap: I'm actually getting 79 DPR for +16x5, dealing 4d6+18 (x2), but I think I want to leave eidolons out of this for now.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Broken Zenith wrote:
Vehas wrote:


Unless there was someway he could prepare a second level spell in a third level slot he would not be able to do this routine again.
Somebody speak up if I'm wrong, but I think you actually can prepare lower level spells in higher level slots. If that's the case, then he would be able to do this twice in fights a couple hours apart?

PRD link

PRD wrote:
A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell.


Vehas wrote:
Did the math without a bite he does 249.665 over three rounds. He still needs to spend the first round activating smite evil and the second two rounds doing litany of righteousness. Divine bond is a pretty huge buff, it's a +3 weapon as a standard action. So it actually wins out over full attacking.

But smite evil is swift action. He can smite evil and full attack in the first round. Without the +3 from divine bond, you get a +1 Mwk regardless, so the difference is slightly less than +3/+3

Assuming +23/+14+/+9 for 1d10+33 plus +12 bite for 1d6+19, but 5 rounds instead of 4 (because of the litany effect). Without going into the numbers, my gut feeling says I'd go with the unbuffed. Maybe I'd make the numbers late, gut feelins are often wrong :P


I don't actually see where they get a +1 masterwork, regardless if it's something I missed that's fine I just am not finding it anywhere. He does smite evil and full attack in the first round, but litany is a swift action, and your not allowed to take two swift actions and full attack in the same turn. If the weapon is masterwork your assumptions on the hit are correct.

And thanks desolate so that means he can do that routine twice a day.

Shadow Lodge

@Desolate: Thanks.

Sorry folks, no masterwork.

Shadow Lodge

How does

Trevor the Tripper:
Human Fighter 12

Stats:
Str20
Dex14
Con14
Int13
Wis11
Cha7

Feats:
Combat Expertise
Weapon Focus [Glaive-Guisarme]
Improved Trip
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Weapon Specialization [Glaive-Guiarme]
Furious Focus
Felling Smash
Greater Trip
Lunge
Vital Strike
Greater Weapon Focus [Glaive-Guisarme]
Greater Weapon Specialization [Glaive-Guisarme]

Attacks:
Glaive-Guisarme +21/+12/+7 [1d10+26]
^Trip +23/+18/+13

Routine:

  • Round 1 walks up to bad guy, Vital Strikes for 2d10+26, trips with felling smash, takes an AoO from Greater Trip for 1d10+26, and waits for the bad guy to stand up and takes an AoO for 1d10+26. If he loses initiative and the bad guy provokes, he uses the AoO to trip, and then takes another AoO from greater trip for yet another 1d10+26.
  • Round 2 rinse, repeat.

If the bad guy can't be tripped, then he full attacks each round, trying to keep himself as far as possible from the enemy while still being able to reach, hoping to get as many AoO's as possible.

If he has time to buff, gets Enlarged from the wizard and maybe hasted to get more reach and attacks.

look? How about
Fredric the Fighter?:
Human Buckler Duelist 12

Stats:
Str18
Dex17
Con14
Int10
Wis12
Cha7

Feats:
1Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Falcata]
1Weapon Focus [Falcata]
1Power Attack {Retrain @12 for Greater Weapon Specialization [Falcata]}
2Improved Shield Bash
3Two-Weapon Fighting
4Weapon Specialization [Falcata]
5Double Slice
6Lunge
7Shield Slam
8Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9Improved Critical [Falcata]
10Greater Weapon Focus [Falcata]
11Two-Weapon Rend
12Shield Master

Class Features:
Buckler Bash
Buckler Catch
Strong Swing +2
Weapon Training [Heavy Blades]+1
Armor Training 1
Chopping Blow

Traits:
Dangerously Curious
Defender of the Society

Attacks:
Falcata +21/+16/+11 [1d8+8]
Falcata/Shield Bash/Falcata/Shield Bash/Falcata +19/+16/+14/+11/+9 {1d8+8/1d4+4/1d8+8/1d4+4/1d8+4+Rend[1d10+6]}

Lantern Lodge

The grapple rogue can do a ton of damage. Here's a modified version of my original posting here. The original post has a ruling assumed that isn't always followed (Does being tied up make you helpless / flat footed?)

Assuming the worst with that ruling, at level 13, here's a grapple Ninja:
Human Manuever Master (Monk) 1, Ninja 12

Str 22 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 12 Char 12

BaB: 9
Feats:
1. Improved Initiative
(human feat)Toughness
*Improved Unarmed Strike
*Improved Grapple
3. Sap Adept
-Vanishing Trick
5. Weapon Focus: Unarmed
-Minor Magic
7. Sap Master
-Major Magic (Truestrike)
9. Greater Grapple
-Pressure Points?
11.Quicken SLA: Truestrike (Monster feat)
-Unarmed Combat Mastery
13.Pinning Knockout
-Combat Trick: Rapid Grappler

*Bonus Feats (This build assumes that the grapple maneuver uses your attack bonus from your unarmed strikes. If this is not the case, change the feats accordingly)

Without Magical Items:

Attack = 16
Grapple CMB = 21

CR 13 CMB 25, CMD 38, AC 27
Grappled -2 CMD (always), -2 AC (In most cases, so not in the calculations)
Pinned: -4 CMD, -4 AC

Without magical items, your not nearly as effective. This is the nature of all combat maneuver builds. However, once per day, you can pull it off with truestrike. It is as follows:

Round 1:
Cast Truestrike, move to enemy

Round 2:
41 Grapple (failure on a 1)/
(cast quickened truestrike) /
33 (Tie up, this includes the -10 penalty, but also includes the monster's adjusted CMD, which is 2 less)(failure on a 4 or less)

You now stand a better chance at actually hitting the creature, since it has -4 AC. The DC of the ropes is 41, meaning said creature needs a roll of 16 or better to escape. A full round action attack looks like this:

16/16/11 every round there after, until you run out of Ki points:
3x((1d10+6d6+18)x2(pinning knockout))
Average of: 151.3

So, without items, not much damage. The True Strike combo works well when you have items as well. Tie up that dragon!

With Magical Items:

Items:
(*11,000) Adhesive Brawling Armor (+4 total bonus to grapples)
(64,000) Amulet of Mighty Fists +4
(18,500) Anaconda's Coils +2 competence bonus to grapples
Grapple CMB = 31

CR 13 CMD = 38, AC = 27
Grappled -2 CMD (always), -2 AC (In most cases, so not in the calculations)
Pinned: -4 CMD, -4 AC

Round 1:
30(grapple)/20(ki attack)/20(attack)/15(attack)
1d6+7 (constrict) + 3x(1d10+11)
Averages to: 34.35

Round 2:
35(Pin them)/35(Deal Damage)/35(Deal Damage)
3x(1d6+7) + 2x((1d10+11 + 6d6+12(Sap Adept Sneak Attacks)) x 2(pinning knockout))
Averages to: 218.025

Round 3:
35(Pin them)/35(Deal Damage)/35(Deal Damage)
3x(1d6+7) + 3x((1d10+11 + 6d6+12(Sap Adept Sneak Attacks)) x 2(pinning knockout))
Averages to: 292.125

----------------------------------------
If Sap Master works on tied up opponents:
Round 2:
35(Pin them)/35(Deal Damage)/35(Deal Damage)
3x(1d6+7) + 2x((1d10+11 + 6d6+12(Sap Adept Sneak Attacks)) x 2(pinning knockout))
Averages to: 123.975

Round 3:
35(Deal Damage)/35(Deal Damage)/35(Deal Damage)
3x(1d6+7) + 3x((1d10+11 + 12d6+12 (Sap Adept+Master)) x2(pinning knockout))
Averages to: 401.85


I thought large falcatas would out damage falchions in DPR?


There goes

The Undertaker:
Human Monk (Maneuver Master/qinggong) 12
Stats:
Str20
Dex16
Con12
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 7

Feats:
1-Combat Reflexes
1M-Improved Grab
1H- Vicious Stomp
2M-Improved Trip
3- Fury's Fall
5- Arcane Strike (through Qinggong)
6- Greater Trip
7- Ki Throw
9- Binding throw
10- Greater Grapple
11- Pinning Knock Out

Relevant class abilities:
Sweeping Maneuver (2 maneuvers as standard action)
Meditative Maneuver (add WIS to a maneuver as swift action)

CMB 12 +5 (str) + 2 (improved)+ 2 (Greater) +1 (WF) + (conditional 3 (dex)+3 (Wis))

Swift: activate Meditative, move, attempt a trip.
+28 (with magic items this would be much higher, but whatever)
Activate AOO with Vicious Stomp and AOO with Greater trip, 2 attacks for
+19 to hit (including Prone) and 2d6+5 damage

Activate free Grapple through Binding Throw, for +26 Grapple (including prone)

Second maneauver from standard action =Grapple for damage (4d6+10 Non-lethal)

Second round: Activate Arcane Strike as Swift, "flurry" of maneauvers (3 maneuvers at +24/+24/+21 for 4d6+16

Third Roud: Repeat Round 2.

NOTE: Every time the other guy tries to break the grapple, he provokes AOO.

It's around 30d6+111 if everything hits, however, it's hard to make assumptions because it depends on what the other guy does (if he tries to break provokes, if he does break you need to start again, etc)

Shadow Lodge

@ Frodo: Do you have the level 12 version of that build?


Broken Zenith wrote:
@Cap: I'm actually getting 79 DPR for +16x5, dealing 4d6+18 (x2), but I think I want to leave eidolons out of this for now.

Pehaps i do it wrong i most likely had all Crits confirm. I get 84 pr round with what i belive is a correct crit thing. (5x,5+,5x5x,1x,5)x (14+18)=84.

But ok eidolon is out i will look at other options.

Shadow Lodge

Recap #2

Teddy still hitting at 81 DPR, 263 over 3 rounds

Cap Darling's Eidolon: 237:

79DPR, 237 Damage over three rounds. Close to Teddy, but not quite. Lets actually leave eidolons out of this for now.

Veha's Ken Doll: 303, very situational & nova:

Three round damage is 303. But this build is heavily nova, and reliant on the enemy being evil. Given that Teddy's 3 round DPR is only 40 less, and he can do it all day against everybody, I'm not sure Ken Doll can win out here. Great at what is does though.

Trevor the Fighter: 144:

The initial hit has DPR 28. You have a 40% of tripping the guy, and, assuming he stands back up every round, you deal an extra 49 from that. Factoring in the % chance of tripping the guy, that's only 48DPR, 144 over 3 rounds. And that's assuming he can be tripped and will stand up. Cool build though.

Fredrick the Fighter: 90 in the best case:

Even if you hit with the rend (which is really difficult to calculate) you are only doing 30DPR, 90 over three rounds. Low attack bonuses and low damage isn't helping you.

Gustavo's Undertaker: Impossible to calculate, somewhere around 115:

So, the first round trip only has a 60% chance of going off. If it does, it deals DPR 16 . Then, the first round grapple only has a 60% chance of going off if the trip hits.
...
For the sake of argument, lets assume that all combat maneuvers succeed, and the guy can never break the grapple or do anything. Which is being really, really, really generous.

First round DPR is 30. Second and third round DPR is 92. So that's a three round DPR of 214. But, given the fact that each of these grapples and grabs only has a 60% chance of working, it's going to be way, way lower. Run it 100 times and I would guess we have something like 115 damage over 3 rounds.

@ TarkXT: This is a Cavalier? How are we getting 26 strength and 3 int? What's the banner? How many times a day can he challenge?

@ Frodo: This looks cool, I'm excited to see the level 12 version.


That was the T-Rex. The cavalier's mount.

The cavalier looks more like:

Str: 20
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 7
Will: 14
Cha: 12

With the feats listed in the first post.

The cavalier challenge 3 times a day. Remember it's like smite in that it lasts until combat is over or the target is dead.

The banner bonus is a morale bonus the cavalier and allies get on charge attacks as long as the banner is present as a class feature. As a human the cavalier can put his favored bonus into the banner increasing the mroale bonus by 1 every 4 levels. Since this can be a completely non-magical item it fits.

The T-Rex is a charger and thus gains half of the bonuses and penalties of the cavaliers challenge.

I'll try and get everything into one post for easy reference.


Yep, without magic items some builds are more heavily penalized. With a 12th level WBL, you can pretty much autosucceed in CMB, because there are a lot of stuff that gives you high CMB bonuses for cheap. A single Wayfinder gives +2 for 500g, assuming you bought the Ioun Stone you were going to buy regardless. Gloves of maneuvering give +2 for 4000, armbands of grappler give +1 for 500, you add enhancement bonus, and so on.

In any case, the power of Grappling with a maneuver master or tetori monk is that you can pretty much tie him and then coup de grace.


Are archer builds allowed?


gustavo iglesias wrote:

Yep, without magic items some builds are more heavily penalized. With a 12th level WBL, you can pretty much autosucceed in CMB, because there are a lot of stuff that gives you high CMB bonuses for cheap. A single Wayfinder gives +2 for 500g, assuming you bought the Ioun Stone you were going to buy regardless. Gloves of maneuvering give +2 for 4000, armbands of grappler give +1 for 500, you add enhancement bonus, and so on.

In any case, the power of Grappling with a maneuver master or tetori monk is that you can pretty much tie him and then coup de grace.

And then we gained access to the spell Freedom of Movement...Sorry Mr. Grappler.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:

Yep, without magic items some builds are more heavily penalized. With a 12th level WBL, you can pretty much autosucceed in CMB, because there are a lot of stuff that gives you high CMB bonuses for cheap. A single Wayfinder gives +2 for 500g, assuming you bought the Ioun Stone you were going to buy regardless. Gloves of maneuvering give +2 for 4000, armbands of grappler give +1 for 500, you add enhancement bonus, and so on.

In any case, the power of Grappling with a maneuver master or tetori monk is that you can pretty much tie him and then coup de grace.

And then we gained access to the spell Freedom of Movement...Sorry Mr. Grappler.

That's why in game you don't make any grappler but tetori monks, because of inescapable grasp

EDIT: also, that's not different thn archers being useless if the target has Fickle Winds


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The Truck (Order of the Sword Beast Rider Cavalier)

Human favored bonuses into banner.

Str: 20
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 7
Will: 14
Cha: 12

1 Mounted Combat
1 Ride By Attack
T1 Paired Opportunists
3 Spirited Charge
5 Power Attack
6 Furious Focus
7 Combat Reflexes
9 Trick Riding
9B Skill Focus (Ride)
9T Outflank
11 Improved Bullrush
12 Greater Bullrush

The Tread (T-Rex Charger AC)

Str: 20
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 7
Will: 14
Cha: 12

Feats
1 Power Attack
3 Weapon Focus (Bite)
5 Paired Opportunist
9 Furious Focus

Round 1

With the cavalier wielding a lance that deals 1d8 19-20/x2

Challenge, charge:

Cavalier Attack: +31
Cavalier Damage: 133.5 damage

T-Rex Attack: +25
T-Rex Damage: 33 Damage

Cavalier Bullrushes opponent with a CMB of 34.

This provokes an AoO from the T-rex and Cavalier. This I don't think counts as a charge changing numbers considerably.

Cavalier AoO: 23 attack and 44.5 damage

T-Rex AoO: +22 attack and 33 damage


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:

Yep, without magic items some builds are more heavily penalized. With a 12th level WBL, you can pretty much autosucceed in CMB, because there are a lot of stuff that gives you high CMB bonuses for cheap. A single Wayfinder gives +2 for 500g, assuming you bought the Ioun Stone you were going to buy regardless. Gloves of maneuvering give +2 for 4000, armbands of grappler give +1 for 500, you add enhancement bonus, and so on.

In any case, the power of Grappling with a maneuver master or tetori monk is that you can pretty much tie him and then coup de grace.

And then we gained access to the spell Freedom of Movement...Sorry Mr. Grappler.

And fickle winds kills archer builds.

And battlefield control kills chargers and pouncers etc. etc.

But, there are was around these things.

Shadow Lodge

@ Tark: Great! So, first round, attack on +31 for 133.5. Also attack on +25 for 33. Also Bullrush attempt at +34. If successful, +22 for 44.5 and +22 for 33. That's 223 DPR, which is awesome.

What happens on the second round?


Depends.

If you knock the guy back 10ft. away you charge again.

If not you step forward and full attack the next two rounds.

Given the ridiculously high nature of the CMB I'd reckon the odds are pretty good on a hard shove.

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, you have a 70% chance of shoving him 10 feet back - what's the full round attack look like? Also, can you remind me how this bull rush is happening in addition to the charge?


Let's try with

Stompy Tom, human Barbarian Wild Rager:

STR 20
DEX 13
Con 16
int 7
wis 12
Cha 7

1 Power Attack
1h Furious Focus
3 Improved Overrun
5 Greater Overrun
7 Charge Through
9 Improved Critical
11 Spiked Destroyer

Beast totem rage powers x3
Overbearing advance
Reckless Abandon
Strength surge

+6 str in Rage.

Attack:
+12 attack +8 Str +2 Charge + 4 Reckless Abandon
Pounce +24/+20/+15/+10 but assuming he gets prone in the first hit, every itterative attack gets +4.

Damage
2d4+12 (str) + 12 (Power Attack)
Free overrrun:
CMD 12+8 str+2 charge +2 Greater Overrun +4 Reckless Abandon+12 Strength surge = +40
AOO +24 2d4 +24
free spiked armor attack:
+24 1d4+16

Total damage: If I haven't missed anything, 162DPR. Or 486 in 3 rounds.

EDIT: I guess I could get a ton more damage with a mounted barbarian and lance and whatever, but anyways

Shadow Lodge

@Broken Zenith:Thanks for the math on Trevor and Fredric. Fredric was more disappointing than I had thought. One question, is Multiclassing allowed?

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