Am I mistaken or is 1001 spells by rite publishing horribly broken?


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I finally got a look at some spells to see if this was worth buying (was hoping for more utility/out of combat spells) and well . . .

9th level spell: Does 10 points of damage per caster level with a ranged touch on EVERYTHING in its line of sight, fort save for half. If destroyed you are consumed right down to the soul (nothing short of a deity with time portfolio can bring them back) and all actions the destroyed creature did for the past 24 hours prior to being hit are undone.

6th level spell: permanently turns an elf into an orc (with an alignment shift to evil) with no desire to return to being an elf, fort negates touch attack.

6th level: 400 + 40/levle range any two humanoid creatures, will negates (if not in direct combat the DC gets a +5 circumstance bonus otherwise even if they're in combat its just a NORMAL save), permanent duration. Subjects become obssessed with each other (regardless of race or sex) and wont do anything to harm or take advantage of the other. If they can't physically touch for more than 24 hours they become sickened, if one dies the other becomes sickened, after 7 days nauseated (may also apply if they don't touch for 7 days) and after a month (again could apply if merely seperated) they become nauseated and disabled. It can be dispelled but ONLY if both creatures are touching and in the spellcasters presence otherwise it states no mortal magic can do this. Admitedly both subjects need to fail their save but if they do there's no way for them to break free or stop needing to be with each other.

so is it just me or are all the spells in this so horribly overpowered and broken?


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I personally loathe the term "overpowered and broken", as it's usually used by people who simply don't like something, theorycraft corner cases, suffer from nerdrage or don't want to change their expectations.

However, if this is what they published... yeah, these read like epic spells from 3.5.

Actually, I think the first one WAS an epic spell.


darkwarriorkarg wrote:

I personally loathe the term "overpowered and broken", as it's usually used by people who simply don't like something, theorycraft corner cases, suffer from nerdrage or don't want to change their expectations.

However, if this is what they published... yeah, these read like epic spells from 3.5.

Actually, I think the first one WAS an epic spell.

Hmmmmm taking a longer look yes these could be epic spells from 3.x"

The "true love" one is a bard level 6 so high level and the time destroying one requires as a focus an object not native to the current time so I may have just looked at some bad ones to start with which is why I'm wondering if someone who's bought it can tell me if they're all like this.


By game mechanics, the second one doesn't seem more powerful to me than, say, flesh to stone. It takes a character out of the game permanently.

From a player's point of view, they may see it as their personal character getting defiled, so there may be more bad feelings than if the character were simply killed.


I'm not sure how the 'true love' spell is particularly broken. How would you use it to 'win'? If you make two enemies fall in love, they'll still be your enemies. If you make an ally and an enemy fall in love, doesn't that mean your ally will start protecting your enemy? Isn't Charm Person more useful?


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Any product with that many spells is going to have broken mechanics in terms of power level. It will also have a lot of weak spells and even more balanced spells.

It's a game of numbers and confirmation bias runs rampant. I didn't write off Ultimate Combat because of the broken stuff in there. You need to judge things on a case by case basis.

Silver Crusade

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I'm still grateful to it for be a tree. :)

It's perfect for technical pacifists and "cruel mercy" types. >:)


Mikaze wrote:
I'm still grateful to it for be a tree. :)

And pants.

And pointer (the bane of cat folk everywhere!)


Well if you want specifics of my concerns (fair enough) . . .

2nd spell
Its a 6th level spell that on one failed save changes (1) race, (2) alignment, (3) beings desires with no way to even make a second save later. Assuming you cast a reverse spell that turns an orc into a good elf (don't like those alignment assumptions either) what if the elf in question was originally neutral? If it was higher level, dropped the alignment or race part only affecting the other or changed both but allowed them to want to change back or had 2 saves one for the race then X amount of time later a second for the alignment one I'd not be so concerned.

3rd spell
My main problem with the true obsession one is the manner of undoing it where it specifcally states that if they aren't together you can't undo it by any mortal magic which seems a little much too me. You have Being X pining away for their dead love and a wish or miracle can't break the enchantment on them because the other victim isn't physically there? I'd also think the DC's should be reversed as in if they're in combat there's a -5 penalty on the DC with normal save DC's if they aren't rather than the other way around and probably reduce the range to short or touch.


Distant Scholar wrote:

By game mechanics, the second one doesn't seem more powerful to me than, say, flesh to stone. It takes a character out of the game permanently.

From a player's point of view, they may see it as their personal character getting defiled, so there may be more bad feelings than if the character were simply killed.

Uh, no. Flesh to stone is countered by Break Enchantment. Hardly permanent. This is just as cheeseball as the Helm of Opposite Alignment.


Liam Warner wrote:

Well if you want specifics of my concerns (fair enough) . . .

2nd spell
Its a 6th level spell that on one failed save changes (1) race, (2) alignment, (3) beings desires with no way to even make a second save later. Assuming you cast a reverse spell that turns an orc into a good elf (don't like those alignment assumptions either) what if the elf in question was originally neutral? If it was higher level, dropped the alignment or race part only affecting the other or changed both but allowed them to want to change back or had 2 saves one for the race then X amount of time later a second for the alignment one I'd not be so concerned.

3rd spell
My main problem with the true obsession one is the manner of undoing it where it specifcally states that if they aren't together you can't undo it by any mortal magic which seems a little much too me. You have Being X pining away for their dead love and a wish or miracle can't break the enchantment on them because the other victim isn't physically there? I'd also think the DC's should be reversed as in if they're in combat there's a -5 penalty on the DC with normal save DC's if they aren't rather than the other way around and probably reduce the range to short or touch.

2nd spell isn't needed anyway. You have baleful polymorph for that.

For the 3rd one, it should be counterable by remove curse, or, if that makes it too weak, Break Enchantment


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Sadly, Rite Publishing has the kind of track record that causes people to ban all third party material in PF games. No quality control whatsoever.


1001 spells has been on my wishlist for a while. are there more examples of abusable spells or is it just these three? I'd like to know before I make a final decision on purchasing it.


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There will be other abusable spells in it. That's what happens when you look through any given list of 1001+ spells. Some few bad apples out of over a thousand shouldn't dissuade you any less than it dissuades you from purchasing anything Paizo puts out even though there's a small amount of abusable stuff they put out.


Cheapy wrote:
There will be other abusable spells in it. That's what happens when you look through any given list of 1001+ spells. Some few bad apples out of over a thousand shouldn't dissuade you any less than it dissuades you from purchasing anything Paizo puts out even though there's a small amount of abusable stuff they put out.

Yup. You'll need to judge on a case-by-case basis.

Some things will also seem more powerful on paper, but will be laughable.

Other things will seem laughable, and then you go "he did WHAT?"


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3 spells out of 1001 and "its broken"? Seems a bit..melodramatic.
Also here is an easy fix. Change them. If spell # 2 don't do it for you..make is dispellable with break enchantment, or even dispel magic. In fact unless it spacificly states that break enchantment DOES NOT dispel it, then it should work just fine. Or give it a duration. Or make sure its used only by a big bad NPC and the players have to kill him to break the enchantment. Take out the one line in the spell that requires the 3rd spell to have the caster present..or not, if the caster does not have to be willing. Nothing says he has to be alive. As far as the 1st one..its a 9TH LEVEL SPELL. Just how often is this going to be a problem to you?
All you have to do is do a little editing to fit your playstyle, or use the other 998 spells.


Blackerose wrote:
3 spells out of 1001 and "its broken"? Seems a bit..melodramatic.

What possibly makes you think it's just 3 spells and only 3 spells?

Scarab Sages

I have a friend who has cherry picked the most powerful spells and his character is stupid break-the-game-math overpowered. But he is a corner, corner, my GM is insane for allowing this, case of a lvl 20 Arenea Litch transmute sorceror with an artifact sword. Can do over 13,000 damage on a full attack (yes, in melee. With near 100 AC).
However, it is a very specific build (that I don't have the details on) that only works the way he's done it (which I don't know). The vast majority of the spells are fine for normal use. Lvl 20 crazy talk is no reason to discount an entire product. For example, I found the Paladin spells to be perfectly acceptable.


Lets put it this way; I cap campaigns at level 12. Are we just talking about three spells (that don't look THAT broken) or is the whole book full of crazy things that promote arms races between DM and PCs?

Contributor

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So, two disclaimers up front before I get started. First, I'm friendly with Rite Publishing owner Steve Russell; so by all means, keep my potential bias in mind. Second, I do not have the product in question, nor do I - at the moment - have access to a site such as d20pfsrd.org to look them up. I'm basing my replies on what you've provided.

OK? Okay. Let's move along...

Liam Warner wrote:

I finally got a look at some spells to see if this was worth buying (was hoping for more utility/out of combat spells) and well . . .

9th level spell: Does 10 points of damage per caster level with a ranged touch on EVERYTHING in its line of sight, fort save for half. If destroyed you are consumed right down to the soul (nothing short of a deity with time portfolio can bring them back) and all actions the destroyed creature did for the past 24 hours prior to being hit are undone.

The only bit of this that bothers me is the final piece. Frankly, the rest seems perfectly OK for a 9th level spell to me under normal circumstances. You can certainly contrive ways to kill 100,000 people with it (stand at midfield of Camp Nou in Barcelona during a match, for example). But under normal circumstances you're looking at 17d10 damage to, what? A dozen or so foes, with a Fort for half.

Then, toss in the presumably hard-to-acquire focus item.

I think the spell is entirely manageable, except the "undo actions from past 24 hours" line.

Quote:
6th level spell: permanently turns an elf into an orc (with an alignment shift to evil) with no desire to return to being an elf, fort negates touch attack.

So, it's a 6th level bard spell. So a minimum of 16th level character to get this. It requires a touch attack and grants the target a Fort save. I'd have to read how it's worded, but it's possible - maybe even likely - that dispel magic, greater dispel magic, break enchantment, and/or remove curse all would undo effects.

Meanwhile, wizards, sorcerers, and druids all gain access to baleful polymorph at 9th character level. That has a range of close (not touch) and allows a Fort save. Failure turns the target into a 1 HD animal, and requires a Will save or lose class features and such.

I'm not seeing the issue with this one...

Quote:

6th level: 400 + 40/levle range any two humanoid creatures, will negates (if not in direct combat the DC gets a +5 circumstance bonus otherwise even if they're in combat its just a NORMAL save), permanent duration. Subjects become obssessed with each other (regardless of race or sex) and wont do anything to harm or take advantage of the other. If they can't physically touch for more than 24 hours they become sickened, if one dies the other becomes sickened, after 7 days nauseated (may also apply if they don't touch for 7 days) and after a month (again could apply if merely seperated) they become nauseated and disabled. It can be dispelled but ONLY if both creatures are touching and in the spellcasters presence otherwise it states no mortal magic can do this. Admitedly both subjects need to fail their save but if they do there's no way for them to break free or stop needing to be with each other.

so is it just me or are all the spells in this so horribly overpowered and broken?

So, it requires two saves. If both saves are failed, the two targets want to be near each other. And, hey, Look! That's convenient, because if you want to dispel it they have to be near each other. And again, based on the actual wording, I would question if wish or miracle couldn't be used to also end the effect.

This spell, effectively is one of three things. It's a plot device for a GM to set up an adventure ("bring the two together because they can't do it on their own"), it's an amusing effect cast by a PC. (though granted, it certainly could thrash some GM plots. but guess what? Lots of spells can thrash GM plots.) Third, it's an annoyance the GM places on a PC during an adventure, essentially putting a timer on the adventure from that point onward.

Maybe my opinions change if I see the actual wording of the spells. But as you're describing them, they just don't seem that terrible to me outside of the "undoing 24 hours" aspect of the first one.


A great many of these spells are on d20pfsrd.com and I've seen very, very few that I felt the need to ban.


What Orthos said for the most part. I allow the ones I like, place certain more powerful ones as 'rare' spells that need to be found, and others simply ban. I think discounting all 1001 for a few bad apples is a bad call myself.


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Quote:
so is it just me or are all the spells in this so horribly overpowered and broken?

I am not going to argue if these are "horribly overpowered and broken" or not. I am just going to talk about what my thoughts were when designing these spells, and let folks draw their own conclusions. As always I am happy to answer any questions.

Liam Warner wrote:

I finally got a look at some spells to see if this was worth buying (was hoping for more utility/out of combat spells) and well . . .

9th level spell: Does 10 points of damage per caster level with a ranged touch on EVERYTHING in its line of sight, fort save for half. If destroyed you are consumed right down to the soul (nothing short of a deity with time portfolio can bring them back) and all actions the destroyed creature did for the past 24 hours prior to being hit are undone.

Just as many Pathfinder spells emulate spells and effect from Dying Earth by Jack Vance and other literary sources. This one emulates Balefire from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Times series. I based its template off of Owen K.C. Stephens work on the Wheel of Time Rpg where it was a 9th level spell as well (but required no components). This is key in deciding that this spell would be on of our 9th level effects.

I am going to try and address your concerns one by one.

I compare this to Destruction, 3 levels lower, does the same damage to one target, destroys the remains and is a death effect.

It is not line of sight, its line of effect. and that line is limited to close range so generally it maxes out at 75 ft, it is not a line effect its a ray.

Rays Require ranged touch attacks, you miss the spell is wasted, you have the worst attack bonus of any character.

Even after a successful touch attack a successful save results in half damage.

It requires an extremely rare component so that is entirely in the GMs hands. This allows people to destroy the component so it cannot be cast or the need to get one so you can cast it.

It destroys equipment players generally don't like effects that destroy potential loot.

Time Undone
School: Transmutation; Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S, F (object not native to the present
time)
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial; Spell Resistance:
Yes
A bar of liquid light springs from your pointing finger. This ray is not blocked by anything. When it strikes an object, it passes through that object and continues on to the limit of its range. You must make a ranged touch attack against all targets within the ray to its maximum range. All targets within the area of effect take 10 points of damage per caster level. A successful save results in half damage. If the spell slays or destroys the target, it consumes the remains and a creature’s soul utterly including any equipment or possessions. That creature can never be resurrected, raised or transformed into undead by any means, including miracle and [i]wish[/i. Only divine intervention from a deity whose portfolio deals with time can restore the creature to life.
Artifacts are immune to the effects of this spell.

There is a greater side effect of using time undone. Any creature or object destroyed with this spell ceases to exist for 24 hours before he or it was stuck by this spell. That is, if a creature is destroyed, it is as if that creature never existed for the previous 24 hours. Memories of those actions remain, but the actual events of the creature’s life
during the last 24 hours never occurred. For example, an opponent kills several allies but is later slain by this spell, the allies the opponent killed are later found alive, having a blurred memory of their death and at times others who were witness to their deaths express surprise at seeing them alive.

Quote:
6th level spell: permanently turns an elf into an orc (with an alignment shift to evil) with no desire to return to being an elf, fort negates touch attack.

Again emulating an effect from literature, the orcs of Tolkien's works used to be elves transformed by the sorcery of Melkor (Sauron's Mentor)

As has been mentioned I compare this to flesh to stone, except unlike flesh to stone this is dispellable. Any spell with a duration of permanent can be dispelled, this is not instantaneous like flesh to stone, nor is it a curse like bestow curse.

It only affects an elf, so its use is limited.

Requires a touch attack (note this not ranged), you have the worst attack bonus and you have to get close. This is far more likely to be used on prisoners than in battle (again emulating the literature).

Also please note use of the spell is an evil act due to the descriptor.

Transmute Elf to Orc
School: Transmutation [Evil]; Level: Sor/Wiz 6, witch 6
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Component: V
Range: Touch
Target: One elf touched
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance: Yes
The target elf you touch undergoes a rapid change, transforming into an orc. The target’s type changes to humanoid (orc), and it loses all elf traits (including lowlight vision, bonuses, proficiencies, and immunities) but gains all of the orc character traits, and has its alignment changed to evil with no desire to change back into an elf.

Quote:
6th level: 400 + 40/levle range any two humanoid creatures, will negates (if not in direct combat the DC gets a +5 circumstance bonus otherwise even if they're in combat its just a NORMAL save), permanent duration. Subjects become obssessed with each other (regardless of race or sex) and wont do anything to harm or take advantage of the other. If they can't physically touch for more than 24 hours they become sickened, if one dies the other becomes sickened, after 7 days nauseated (may also apply if they don't touch for 7 days) and after a month (again could apply if merely seperated) they become nauseated and disabled. It can be dispelled but ONLY if both creatures are touching and in the spellcasters presence otherwise it states no mortal magic can do this. Admitedly both subjects need to fail their save but if they do there's no way for them to break free or stop needing to be with each other.

Back to emulation this time I wanted to emulate the bards ability in so many stories to create love.

I would compare it to two charm person spells being cast upon two people, with minor curse effect.

a diamond worth 600 gp. note this is not diamond dust but an actual rare component that again the GM has control over.

only affects two medium sized humanoids (so its useless against say a dragon and giants)

The effect again is dispelled any spell with a permanent duration is dispelled. Though it does require a specific circumstance (making it very similar to a curse.

It requires each of them to fail their saves.

The caster gains no advantage over the two creatures by using this spell on them, and its not dismissable so casting on yourself and other creature makes you charmed by that other creature as well.

True Love
School: Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]; Level:
Brd 6
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S, M (a diamond worth 600 gp)
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target: Any two humanoid targets within range
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance:
Yes
This extremely powerful love charm causes two persons to become hopelessly obsessed with each other. Under the influence of true love, two humanoids of Medium size or smaller regard each other as perfectly romantically matched. This spell functions regardless of the gender or race of the humanoids involved. If either subject is threatened or attacked by the other when targeted by the spell, both targets make normal Will saves against the spell. If the targets are not in direct conflict, the saving throw’s DC gains a +5 circumstance bonus. For this spell to function properly, both victims must fail their saving throws. If either victim succeeds in the saving throw, the spell has no effect.

Since both subjects are charmed, neither will do anything that would harm or take advantage of the other. If the subjects are separated from each other (unable to physically touch) for more than 24 hours while under the effect of the spell, their intense longing for each other causes both to suffer the sickened condition.

This effect ends instantly when the two are united. If one of the victims dies, the other victim gains the sickened condition, after seven days this becomes the nauseated condition, and after the 1 month the subject is nauseated and disabled. The only escape from this requires dispelling. However, due to the unusual nature of the spell, both victims must be in the presence of the spellcaster and in physical
contact for the spell to be ended by magical means. If the victims are not in physical contact, the spell cannot be broken by any known mortal magic.


Quote:
You have Being X pining away for their dead love and a wish or miracle can't break the enchantment on them because the other victim isn't physically there?

Yes this is because for bards this is as powerful as a wish or miracle, and as my player did in our game (Coliseum Morpheuon playtest) you wish for the person to be resurrected right here.

Contributor

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Thanks for sharing the details, Steve. I was going to look them up when I got home.

So, using the new info...

Time Undone: So, you can't kill 100,000 people by standing at mid-field in Camp Nou. At 20th, level it looks like 35 targets would be the most you could get - and that requires all your foes to line up in a neat, orderly line for you. Mechanically, I still don't like the reversing of the past 24 hours, though I understand why from a flavor standpoint.

Steve wrote:
...and at times others who were witness to their deaths express surprise at seeing them alive.

Witness: I thought you died?

Victim: I got better.

Transnute Elf to Orc: When I wrote my comments above, I thought the spell should have the evil descriptor, but didn't say anything - again, I was only commenting on the details that were available. So, seeing the spell details I stand by my previous comment that there's nothing wrong here.

True Love: I have even less issue with this spell after seeing it. I'm a little iffy about wish or miracle not being able to end it; otherwise, I really don't have an issue - especially since it's mind-affecting enchantment spell, which lots of creatures have bonuses for (elves, monks), and plenty of spells and other effects give bonuses or outright immunity (mind blank, etc).

So yeah, I see even less wrong than I did the first time looking. *shrug*


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Makarion wrote:
Sadly, Rite Publishing has the kind of track record that causes people to ban all third party material in PF games. No quality control whatsoever.

I am very sorry to hear that is your perception of us and would like to know what we can do to improve our quality in your eyes.

You are the first person to express this idea of our track record being of no quality control, our reviews don't tend to bear this out.

We recruit talented industry professions several who work for Paizo like Mike Welham, Ben McFarland as well as myself.

We have talented Editors like Dave Paul and Robert N. Emerson who have been in the industry for over 6 years now.

If we do make something game-breaking, I am always open to feedback from our customers on trying to correct mistakes we have made in updates; 90% of our products are PDF and update based on feedback, for example 1001 Spells was playtested over a years time, released as small pdfs, updated with the compilation, edited again for the compilation, and updated again with the release of the 2nd printing.

If you have suggestions to how we can improve the quality of our work in your eyes I am happy to listen to any and all feedback.


Zherog wrote:


So yeah, I see even less wrong than I did the first time looking. *shrug*

Thanks John, that means a lot coming from a professional designer whose work I have often admired.


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Makarion wrote:
Sadly, Rite Publishing has the kind of track record that causes people to ban all third party material in PF games. No quality control whatsoever.

Are you talking about the same Rite Publishing with a 4.5/5 review publisher average at Rpgnow, and the same Rite Publishing that had a nomination from Endz for having one of the best 3PP books of 2013 (101 Mystical Site Qualities)?

That Rite Publishing?


The easy answer is to allow 3rd party options on a case by case basis, i.e. each spell approved individually not on a book by book basis. . . then 1001 Spells gives you 1001 possibilities that you can then decide one. . .


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Nathanael Love wrote:
The easy answer is to allow any options on a case by case basis, <snip>

I even have a citation from that one from Jason Bulmahn :)


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Makarion wrote:
Sadly, Rite Publishing has the kind of track record that causes people to ban all third party material in PF games. No quality control whatsoever.

That doesn't match my experience with their products at all. Rite Publishing produces generally very high quality from the products I've bought. The only reason I don't have more of their products is because I have a very limited gaming budget.

Silver Crusade

Quote:
If the spell slays or destroys the target, it consumes the remains and a creature’s soul utterly including any equipment or possessions. That creature can never be resurrected, raised or transformed into undead by any means, including miracle and wish. Only divine intervention from a deity whose portfolio deals with time can restore the creature to life.

Yikes. Yeah, I'd could never allow this in a game. It's way too much, even for a 9th level spell. Especially with it's trumping the power of most gods.(in Golaroin, none of the Big 20, even Pharasma, wouldn't be able to undo this) And hot damn it really ought to be [Evil].


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Mikaze wrote:

Yikes. Yeah, I'd could never allow this in a game. It's way too much, even for a 9th level spell. Especially with it's trumping the power of most gods.(in Golaroin, none of the Big 20, even Pharasma, wouldn't be able to undo this) And hot damn it really ought to be [Evil].

That's what should be the limiting factor in a campaign allowing it. It's the kind of spell which is going to attract lots and lots of attention from inevitables and entities connected with time and death. Something on the lines of a great big bullseye painted on the caster's back.

Silver Crusade

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I just read Rite Publishings response (and included spells) and I agree that the spells could be abused, but I could abuse spells in the core books more.

I'd also add the Wish and Miracle are better constrained in Pathfinder than in 3.5 and I am grateful for the text that a wish may pervert your intent if taken outside those constraints and a miracle may be refused if not inline with your deities beliefs.

So using wish or miracle is not part of the constrained part of the true love spell and risks the results after expending the costly components...

I could live with that as a GM as a potential way to undo the true love aspect.

Thanks for the extra info on the spells, it's nice to know the inspiration for them, and had convinced me to look at picking it up, and for Hero Lab as well :)


I'd strongly argue that since transmute elf to orc affects the target's personality, it needs two saves: Fort for the physical transmutation, and Will for the mental. The analogue is, obviously, baleful polymorph. It just doesn't make sense that a failed Fort save changes the target's alignment and personality.

Liberty's Edge

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Purple Duck Games wrote:
Makarion wrote:
Sadly, Rite Publishing has the kind of track record that causes people to ban all third party material in PF games. No quality control whatsoever.

Are you talking about the same Rite Publishing with a 4.5/5 review publisher average at Rpgnow, and the same Rite Publishing that had a nomination from Endz for having one of the best 3PP books of 2013 (101 Mystical Site Qualities)?

That Rite Publishing?

I must admit I was kind of suprised to see that comment as well. Rite Publishing is usually regarded as one of the top Pathfinder 3PPs - I can't recall ever reading a review or message board comment before this one calling in to question their quality or game balence ...


Makarion wrote:
Sadly, Rite Publishing has the kind of track record that causes people to ban all third party material in PF games. No quality control whatsoever.

The density of broken spells in 1001 spells is far, far less than in, oh, the Core Rulebook.

And of course, the upper end of spell power in the CRB is much, much greater than in 1001 spells. Kill a group of people near you? Gimme a break, Gate time!

If you plan on banning the entirety of this book based on perceiving a subset of the spells as being broken, then either you also ban the Core Rulebook and almost everything else Paizo ever wrote, or you are being extremely hypocritical.

I'm sorry if I come across as harsh, I don't have the same amount of internet-tactfulness-skills as Steven Russell.

Anyways, when I saw the description in the OP, I thought

immediate reaction of 137ben wrote:
"Crap, if Transmute Elf to Orc doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor, that's a horrible editing error...that's as bad as Programmed Amnesia!

I then immediately rechecked the entry in my copy of 1001 spells. Sure enough, it does have the [Evil] descriptor. Noting wrong with having [Evil] spells in the game. Especially if they actually deserve the descriptor, like this one does.

Dark Archive

The 9th level seems over the top, and the undo actions part is particularly problematic. (Annhilating one target and undoing anything it's done for the last *minute* could be as good as some current 9th level spells!)

Could be worse. Could be simulacrum. :)


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

And I was just looking at my copy of 1001 spells for powerful spells for my summoner to take, and couldn't find any!

As it is, I've always been happy with Rite Publishing's work. Great stuff.


Set wrote:


Could be worse. Could be simulacrum. :)

Or an Ice Assassin:)


Blackerose wrote:

3 spells out of 1001 and "its broken"? Seems a bit..melodramatic.

Also here is an easy fix. Change them.

Agreed. My group all delves deeply into 1001 spells and I think the only one we've had to adjust has been Flatten. Changed it from lotsa targets to single target to bring it more in line with its level.

Otherwise I'm a big freaking fan of the collection. Lots of awesome damn flavor and style in the spells. Things that aren't uber-cheese but just dripping with role-play power.

Dark Archive

137ben wrote:
Set wrote:


Could be worse. Could be simulacrum. :)
Or an Ice Assassin:)

3.0's Simulacrum, IIRC, could be Empowered and Maximized as well, to get up to around 90% power. Still, required a chunk of what you wanted to Sim, but you can get a hell of a lot of 'chunks' out of a single dragon, which, by the time you can cast the spell, it's not improbable that you will have met...


As I said these are just the ones I was able to dig up (as a side effect of a different search actually, was looking for content on non-combat spells e.g improving crops or the like. Which was why 1001 was on my radar in the first place) and was looking for infomration from those who had it on whether all these spells were like this.

Even with the dev response I have my doubts about gods not being able to undo time undo unless their portfolio is time and I REALLY don't like the part that it consumes the soul as well, although i can't help but wonder if you killed the person who used it with time undone would it bring back whoever they killed even though their soul was destroyed?

I'm also not convinced that that spell should be called true love as it seems more obsessive than love based (for the rest of your life if you don't touch them for a day your sickened and a week your nauseated? What if they travel for work?)

That said the responses here seem to answer my question with a "no the spells as a whole aren't this powerful you just found some bad ones to base your judgement on".

However since we do have people here with the book perhaps you could let me know is it 1001 combat spells or are there a nice mix of utility/convenience ones in there as well? Examples of things I'm looking for are spells to make crops grow, to strengthen natural materials, adjust bad weather, function as a thorough wash. Not necessarily powerful or things most people would take but that can lend themselves to a party stumbling out of storm tossed woods to find a cottage sitting in a clearing lit with its own sunlight shining through a hole in the clouds tended by invisible magical servents.


137ben wrote:
Makarion wrote:
Sadly, Rite Publishing has the kind of track record that causes people to ban all third party material in PF games. No quality control whatsoever.

The density of broken spells in 1001 spells is far, far less than in, oh, the Core Rulebook.

And of course, the upper end of spell power in the CRB is much, much greater than in 1001 spells. Kill a group of people near you? Gimme a break, Gate time!

If you plan on banning the entirety of this book based on perceiving a subset of the spells as being broken, then either you also ban the Core Rulebook and almost everything else Paizo ever wrote, or you are being extremely hypocritical.

I'm sorry if I come across as harsh, I don't have the same amount of internet-tactfulness-skills as Steven Russell.

Anyways, when I saw the description in the OP, I thought

immediate reaction of 137ben wrote:
"Crap, if Transmute Elf to Orc doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor, that's a horrible editing error...that's as bad as Programmed Amnesia!
I then immediately rechecked the entry in my copy of 1001 spells. Sure enough, it does have the [Evil] descriptor. Noting wrong with having [Evil] spells in the game. Especially if they actually deserve the descriptor, like this one does.

Admittedly, I do ban significant portions of the Core Book in my home game. What works for one GM or world may not work for others, after all.


My GM has 1001 spells on Hero Labs (he owns a hobby store and gets all Pathfinder supplements for free, jerk). He, and others, have begun using some of the 1001 spells and we've found some that were fairly powerful.

Lifechant, for example, is a spell that essentially gives the entire party fast healing as long as the bard concentrates. Give a wand of this to a Bard and watch it quickly replace all Cure Light Wounds Wands, especially if the Bard buys higher caster level versions of it. Or, buy/craft a 3rd level wand of Lifechant, and give it to a Wizard with Staff-like Wand with sufficient UMD.


What I loved about the 1001 Spells is the quantity from which I can award players who spend the time to research new spells, assign to bad guys, and use for flavor and variety. I particularly like spells that seem useful as plot devices or story hooks. Overpowered spells have the potential of being used by BBEG's, because evil does not play fair; but then I am old-school.

I agree with Maikurion that there are bits in even the Core book that I do not allow players to use (when I actually run Pathfinder games, which has been less frequent of late). I tend to ban overpowered feats more often than spells, however.


Craig Bonham 141 wrote:
Blackerose wrote:

3 spells out of 1001 and "its broken"? Seems a bit..melodramatic.

Also here is an easy fix. Change them.

Agreed. My group all delves deeply into 1001 spells and I think the only one we've had to adjust has been Flatten. Changed it from lotsa targets to single target to bring it more in line with its level.

Otherwise I'm a big freaking fan of the collection. Lots of awesome damn flavor and style in the spells. Things that aren't uber-cheese but just dripping with role-play power.

Thank you for the praise I will have to look more closely at Flatten your the first person ever to bring it up.


Honestly I like a lot of the 1001 spells, but so many either are above the power-level for their spell level, or don't fit the tone (pants, being a big example), that I have to either ban them entirely, or say "you have to run all 3rd party material by me" which tends to actually be worse, because rather than just saying "no" once, I have to say it several times, even if it would actually broaden player choice.


Liam Warner wrote:


although i can't help but wonder if you killed the person who used it with time undone would it bring back whoever they killed even though their soul was destroyed?

However since we do have people here with the book perhaps you could let me know is it 1001 combat spells or are there a nice mix of utility/convenience ones in there as well? Examples of things I'm looking for are spells to make crops grow, to strengthen natural materials, adjust bad weather, function as a thorough wash. Not necessarily powerful or things most people would take but that can lend themselves to a party stumbling out of storm tossed woods to find a cottage sitting in a clearing lit with its own sunlight shining through a hole in the clouds tended by invisible magical servents.

To go back to the inspiration for the spell Balefire, yes this is exactly what it does in the Wheel of Time novels. Evil magic uses sometimes slay whole cities, and then someone kills the evil magic user with it, it nearly unravels reality, no truce is called but people just stop using it.

The reason or the lack of deities not being able to undo it is the time issue again. The Deity of evil The Dark One, Shaitan, The Great Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Lord of the Grave, is unable to reincarnate his minions who are killed with bale fire. Hence why this was done.

as to the spells your looking for

You will find some of the spells on the 1001 spells on the d20pfsrd.com

Harden
Clean

as to your final one there is 9th level spell Magical Castle which makes a permanent flying castle.

the CRB already has Plant Grown, and Control Weather


Tels wrote:

My GM has 1001 spells on Hero Labs (he owns a hobby store and gets all Pathfinder supplements for free, jerk). He, and others, have begun using some of the 1001 spells and we've found some that were fairly powerful.

Lifechant, for example, is a spell that essentially gives the entire party fast healing as long as the bard concentrates. Give a wand of this to a Bard and watch it quickly replace all Cure Light Wounds Wands, especially if the Bard buys higher caster level versions of it. Or, buy/craft a 3rd level wand of Lifechant, and give it to a Wizard with Staff-like Wand with sufficient UMD.

Yeah this is one I will go back and change the duration on. It should have been only a couple of rounds.

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