Creative Director
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This post is my favorite thing on the internet right now. Thank you for saying this, Tirisfal.So, James. As Creative Director is this part of your bailiwick? Do you have an opinion on the matter or an official company line you'd like to share? ;)
(Look at me trying to be on topic again!)
As Creative Director of Paizo, I do NOT feel that the iconics need a redesign at all. I feel quite proud of them, and that we've managed to cover a wide range of styles, personalities, and appearances. Can we improve further? Absolutely. We make new iconics now and then—we've got 10 more coming later this year, in fact.
But I'm not interested in "redesigning" any of the ones we've already got.
From a crunch perspective, some iconics could be a bit better^^
Else i totally agree, as fas as i can tell most iconics and also other characters are shown in an immersive fashion, being clothed realistic from a Golarion point of view and probably their view, what makes the most sense.
The iconics are personalities first, stats somewhere down at 3rd or 4th. In some cases, the choices the iconics make in their stats are for personality choices rather than "min/max" choices. They're not meant to be "the best possible builds for their class." That's not what an iconic is.
The iconics are personalities first, stats somewhere down at 3rd or 4th. In some cases, the choices the iconics make in their stats are for personality choices rather than "min/max" choices. They're not meant to be "the best possible builds for their class." That's not what an iconic is.This post is my favorite thing on the internet right now. Thank you for saying this, Tirisfal.So, James. As Creative Director is this part of your bailiwick? Do you have an opinion on the matter or an official company line you'd like to share? ;)
(Look at me trying to be on topic again!)
As Creative Director of Paizo, I do NOT feel that the iconics need a redesign at all. I feel quite proud of them, and that we've managed to cover a wide range of styles, personalities, and appearances. Can we improve further? Absolutely. We make new iconics now and then—we've got 10 more coming later this year, in fact.
But I'm not interested in "redesigning" any of the ones we've already got.
From a crunch perspective, some iconics could be a bit better^^
Else i totally agree, as fas as i can tell most iconics and also other characters are shown in an immersive fashion, being clothed realistic from a Golarion point of view and probably their view, what makes the most sense.
And may it stay that way, thank the Gods.
Hehe, one might see this a tick differently when playing them as pregenerated characters in PFS, but that´s not the topic here and i´m not really complaining about it.
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Clearly we both use this word differently and categorize people differently as well. Please allow me to clarify.
You can say you use the word differently, but that doesn't really matter. Words have history and connotation, and the fact that you may not want to invoke that history doesn't mean that it's not there when you use a word. For example, if you say that something an African-American said to you made you mad enough to lynch him, it doesn't really matter whether you just meant "strangle." The word in that context has racist overtones that don't go away just because you say they weren't intentional.
So you are claiming this word has a history (of which I doubt it does but would be open to being disproved) in which it meant something other than its definition, and therefor that was what I was implying? If you have some credible reference for this, I would be very interested. It would make me more mindful of it in the future. As it stands, I see your comparison as a false analogy.
Etymological Dictionary sides with JP. Urban Dictionary (for what it's worth) defines it as going above one's station, which She also mentioned. The Wire also agrees on it's racist overtones (not exactly a scholarly publication, but it is a decent measure of the pulse of at least a sizable minority of people's thought). Wiktionary includes a note on usage, specifying race, but not gender. There are at least two books: "Uppity Women of Ancient Times" and "Uppity Women of the Bible" that chronicle "badly behaved" women. Their actions seem like they would be lauded in men and called heroic, I suspect that these books are written with at least a little dose of reappropriation in mind.
*Edit* I'm sorry, I didn't notice Adam Daigle's post until after I posted this. Please remove it if that is necessary.
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As Creative Director of Paizo, I do NOT feel that the iconics need a redesign at all. I feel quite proud of them, and that we've managed to cover a wide range of styles, personalities, and appearances. Can we improve further? Absolutely. We make new iconics now and then—we've got 10 more coming later this year, in fact.
But I'm not interested in "redesigning" any of the ones we've already got.
For the purposes of this thread, do you consider the addition or alteration of the iconics' gear, to fit their situation (climbing gear for a mountain adventure, etc) to be a 'redesign'? Or would that still be on the table, as fitting their current look?
I think that's what many here are hoping for; not that they'll be made unrecognisable, but have a wardrobe of alternate looks, that are still recognisably them.
In an underwater adventure, Seoni may ditch the long trailing parts of her costume (so they don't get entangled), but her swimsuit will still be red with gold trim.
Ezren in Space may be suited and booted, with an oxygen tank and helmet, but his vaccuum suit is still the same shade of blue.
Savage Prehistoric Valeros may not have access to a forge, so will be wielding stone, bone or wooden weapons, but they'll be sharpened as much as can be, and one will be longer than the other.
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They don't need to be visible, but she's quite proud of them and wants to show them off and wants the world to know she's a sorcerer.Doesn't Seoni need to have her tattoos visible as part of her magic? I thought I read about that somewhere.
Then again, I never play with the iconics in my campaigns so I know very little about them.
Isabella "Inkskin" Locke [female human sorcerer (tattooed sorcerer) 9] wears little in the way of clothing, the better to show off her many tattoos, including a large stylized sea snake tattoo on her lift hip and abdomen.
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Creative Director
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As Creative Director of Paizo, I do NOT feel that the iconics need a redesign at all. I feel quite proud of them, and that we've managed to cover a wide range of styles, personalities, and appearances. Can we improve further? Absolutely. We make new iconics now and then—we've got 10 more coming later this year, in fact.
But I'm not interested in "redesigning" any of the ones we've already got.
For the purposes of this thread, do you consider the addition or alteration of the iconics' gear, to fit their situation (climbing gear for a mountain adventure, etc) to be a 'redesign'? Or would that still be on the table, as fitting their current look?
I think that's what many here are hoping for; not that they'll be made unrecognisable, but have a wardrobe of alternate looks, that are still recognisably them.
In an underwater adventure, Seoni may ditch the long trailing parts of her costume (so they don't get entangled), but her swimsuit will still be red with gold trim.
Ezren in Space may be suited and booted, with an oxygen tank and helmet, but his vaccuum suit is still the same shade of blue.
Savage Prehistoric Valeros may not have access to a forge, so will be wielding stone, bone or wooden weapons, but they'll be sharpened as much as can be, and one will be longer than the other.
I don't consider addition/alteration to gear to fit a specific situation to be a redesign. Nor would it be something you'd expect to see repeated often.
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On a second look, Imiri's artwork in the Core Rulebook has a subtle sign of being well-thought-out: namely, the scars on her exposed midsection. Good thing for Barbarian DR!
Seelah doesn't really need the embossed breasts on her armour, mainly because that can angle blows toward her sternum instead of away from it; it's a good thing Smiting Evil gives her a deflection bonus to AC.
Also, Lem's choice of clothing makes him vulnerable to caltrops, at least until Seoni or Kyra lets him take to the air.
Though I'm fine with the Iconics and don't need to nitpick about anything, I've still wondered about most of the Mythic Iconics. is it that non-mythic clothes can't contain their new power?
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Halflings have tougher soles than you softpaws.
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Chainmail bikinis are an integral part of the fantasy gaming tradition. Stop trying to take away what happiness I have left.
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I think that people are seeing a small bit of the pathfinder art and saying this is the style of art pathfinder is going for. I get most if not all of the books and there are examples of both scantily clad women and modestly dressed women. I see the style of art from paizo being very eclectic and usually understandable for there reasons.
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Though I'm fine with the Iconics and don't need to nitpick about anything, I've still wondered about most of the Mythic Iconics. is it that non-mythic clothes can't contain their new power?
I'm too mythic for my shirt,
Sooo mythic, it huuurts!I'm too mythic for Tian,
Garund or Irrisen!
I'm iconic, you know what I mean?
And I shake my little tush at the Starstone.
Hey, there, Starstone?
Look at this, Starstone.
I shake my little tush at the Starstone!
Chainmail bikinis are an integral part of the fantasy gaming tradition. Stop trying to take away what happiness I have left.
I heartily agree.
However, As I was saying above, the characters should also belong in their world.
But, James Jacobs has effectively shut down this subject. While he might change his mind (it has happened before) that will not happen today.
Clothing aside where is the elderly or middle-aged woman iconic?
All of the female iconics and as far as I can tell all the female NPCs (except for Baba Yaga the hag-crone) seem to be stereotypically young and beautiful.
I hate to insert reality into a fantasy topic (I'm not being sarcastic, I really do generally believe that fantasy and reality don't mix)but ...
I think adventuring in general would attrack young fit people, at least if they want to survive. There would of necessity be few elderly or unfit adventurers.
I think this is normal. When I was in my 20's I was a college football player, loved to work out, run around, challenge myself, etc. Now twenty years later you could not pay me to run, I work out only out of necessity and if I were to run into 20 year old me he would trounce me at everything.
I think the one exception to this is pure magic using classes. I would expect elderly wizards, clerics, etc. as they would simply continue to become more powerful over time.
All I can think of is a Murtaugh response "I'm getting too old for this s..t!" I am going to retire and run an inn. But i will make sure it's on top of a pit that leads to the biggest dungeon in Golarion, just in case I get bored.
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Chainmail bikinis are an integral part of the fantasy gaming tradition. Stop trying to take away what happiness I have left.I heartily agree.
However, As I was saying above, the characters should also belong in their world.
But, James Jacobs has effectively shut down this subject. While he might change his mind (it has happened before) that will not happen today.
There may come a day where them iconics get redesigned..but not this day. This day we fight..For Frodo!
This post by Jessica Price leads me to re-open this subject.
Specifically: "But I can attest that from the development and editorial side, that there's no "intentional strategy" to make sure the female characters are dressed revealingly. Quite the opposite, actually."
Which leads me back to Seoni.
She is dressed like this, which is inconsistent with the way all other Varisian females have been drawn in every other Paizo publication using Varisians. (And is very inconsistent with the Romani fashions of the period.)
She should be dressed closer to this, which is still sexualized, but consistent with Varisian fashion.
Similar problems exist for the other female characters I mentioned:
Alahazra, Amiri, and Feiya
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Can't speak to Seoni, as she was commissioned long before I got to Paizo. I would say, however, that at this point she is who she is.
I can speak to the fact that currently, the dev/editorial team tries to make sure we have a diverse slate of characters -- a wide range of skin colors, variety in genders for different classes/rank/profession, etc. -- and that our books present characters who express themselves (and dress) in a variety of ways.
Just like in real life, there are characters for whom their sexuality is a core component of who they are and how they present themselves, there are characters for whom sexuality is a tool they use, there are characters for whom it's sacred, there are characters for whom it's very private, and there are characters for which it just isn't a major part of how they present themselves. I know that the devs, when doing art descriptions, also try to make sure that characters (both male and female) are presented plausibly for who they are and what they're doing. Mendevian crusaders don't show up in battle bikinis, but clerics of Calistria are likely to dress in ways that draw attention to their sexuality.
There's always room for improvement, but that's where the team starts from in creating characters.
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Is this a bad time to ask for more cheesecake?
Because yes, I would like some more.
Beefcake too.
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Which leads me back to Seoni.She is dressed like this, which is inconsistent with the way all other Varisian females have been drawn in every other Paizo publication using Varisians. (And is very inconsistent with the Romani fashions of the period.)
She should be dressed closer to this, which is still sexualized, but consistent with Varisian fashion.
Similar problems exist for the other female characters I mentioned:
Alahazra, Amiri, and Feiya
Hmmm. I'm tempted to lean towards anyone who has broken enough traditions to take up the adventuring life as being enough of an outlier in society to not necessarily wish to conform to their national fashions, either.
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Not to mention that the depiction of ethnic varisians could lead to serious trouble in europe right now and a lot of debates, because what they are supposedly depicted of is something like a supressed and chased away minority that has huge problems.
On the other hand, unfortunately partially because of this, there is also a real world reason for something like the scarni faction.
And none of this is one bit funny.
So before someone complains about how a fictional character in a fantasy game is dressed, there are really other things to be adressed.
And then, i rather have Seoni dress scantily and some others be nude.
Because this is a fantasy game and clichees are ok there, just as the whole varisian theme. I really don´t need real life topics in there and surely no real life concerns. And if so, clothing is really the least one.
Also not sure why people and persons in a fantasy game should wear realistic clothing.
I don't know if others have noticed, but since the Skull & Shackles adventure path, Paizo has had a shift in art direction to more egalitarian and realistic clothing. One of the results of this is that the fanservice-y costumes of Amri,Seoni, Alahazra, and Feiya are becoming increasingly "out of step" with the fashions of the world setting.
My question is, do these characters need an art update to dress them more "realistically" for the Golarion setting?
Hm... Personally, if it were up to me I would definitely change Amri's outfit to something approximating sensible armour. Barbarians wear light armour, so a chain shirt that covers her stomach* would definitely be in order.
The others aren't much of an issue for me, though Seoni is so 'hawt' it can actually be a little distracting... :) - I do have some trouble believing she's actually an adventurer, but it's a minor issue. Feiya looks pretty much exactly how I'd expect a young witch to look, no problem there. Alahazra I'm not sure about - I know the pic of her scrubbing the deck in that get-up in Skull & Shackles Book 1 looked *really* silly, but I think that was deliberate. Overall it seems an ok 'high priestess' type look, I guess I'd leave it.TL;DR: Give Amri decent armour coverage. Consider giving Seoni a less stripperific outfit for dungeon-delving. Feia & Alahazra are ok.
*NB I once had a female player freak out because she was given a pregen warrior PC with a bare-midriff picture. She was really upset, I guess it was a 'trigger' as they say nowadays. She lectured me that a bare stomach makes a woman feel vulnerable. And certainly IRL your stomach is the second thing you want to armour up before going into battle, right after your head and ahead of your upper torso.
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Yes, absolutely. It's 2014. Why is Paizo clinging to an art style that makes female characters into sexual objects and sends the message that rpgs are only for straight men?
Agree, everyone should be made into sexual objects equally so that we know that RPG's are for everyone.
This post by Jessica Price leads me to re-open this subject.
Specifically: "But I can attest that from the development and editorial side, that there's no "intentional strategy" to make sure the female characters are dressed revealingly. Quite the opposite, actually."
Its funny, the first part of that statement seems perfectly fine to me:
"But I can attest that from the development and editorial side, that there's no "intentional strategy" to make sure the female characters are dressed revealingly."
The second statement on the other hand is what has always troubled me most about Paizo's seeming and stated mindset...
"Quite the opposite, actually."
Yeah, that bothers me. It seems less like making the effort to see that everyone is treated equally (i.e. sexually stylized males in equal proportions to sexually stylized females) and is equally represented and more like the unfortunately all-too-common 'saming' of the sexes in a PC effort to sanitize rather than emphasize the wonderful differences between masculinity and femininity.
Having been at a concert today, I have seen lots of women, and Seoni is dressed more modestly than a lot of them.
Just saying.
I see the same at clubs, bars, holiday events, parties, sporting events, etc. almost every day.
And at each instance there is inevitably a small but vocal minority present who seems to resent the openness and comfort of the sexuality of others. I'm thankful that they aren't the ones driving the bus and I hope they never do.
And He-man! Arg! I always hated that look, on guys or girls, because that much exposure is just... really stupid. Why does he where nothing when swords and laser blasts are flying everywhere?! Arg! Again!
To be fair, He-Man was originally a barbarian in a world that was much more post-apocalyptic/savage than settled/scientific. His chest-armor, also, had a force field with it, so it was probably more effective protection than Man-At-Arms' armor was.
With the subsequent development and addition/retcon of the (ugh) Prince Adam "secret identity" and the further "civilizing" of Eternia, the look definitely became less practical and more silly, but I the action figure line was well-established by that point, and it didn't make a lot of sense for them to change his look. It was iconic.
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This post by Jessica Price leads me to re-open this subject.
Specifically: "But I can attest that from the development and editorial side, that there's no "intentional strategy" to make sure the female characters are dressed revealingly. Quite the opposite, actually."
Its funny, the first part of that statement seems perfectly fine to me:
"But I can attest that from the development and editorial side, that there's no "intentional strategy" to make sure the female characters are dressed revealingly."
The second statement on the other hand is what has always troubled me most about Paizo's seeming and stated mindset...
"Quite the opposite, actually."
Yeah, that bothers me. It seems less like making the effort to see that everyone is treated equally (i.e. sexually stylized males in equal proportions to sexually stylized females) and is equally represented and more like the unfortunately all-too-common 'saming' of the sexes in a PC effort to sanitize rather than emphasize the wonderful differences between masculinity and femininity.
Please see my reply above.
The idea isn't to "sanitize" anything -- it's to make sure that a wide range of women exist in our material, because we're not interested in limiting who someone can be -- or the way they can dress -- because of their gender. In the 80+ adventure path volumes we've published, there are a ton of different ways both women and men are presented. Some women in Golarion love wearing elaborate dresses. Some women in Golarion have never worn a dress, and never will. Some women wear pants when going about their daily business, and wear dresses when they go to parties or weddings or the opera. Some women in Golarion come from cultures that have very different norms for clothing for men and women, and some come from cultures (or social groups) where there's not a lot of distinction. Some women in Golarion cultivate delicacy and grace and sophistication. And some women in Golarion punch obnoxious people in the face, throw their tankard after their fist, belch, and go back to the conversation they were having with the bartender. And our materials try to show both, and everything in between.
Not all women are interested in being traditionally feminine, or emphasizing their differences from men. Some are. And some women just don't define their lives by what is or isn't similar to other women or to men, and find that whole binary irrelevant. They just are who they are.
That's sort of the whole point -- if you don't want to adhere to traditional real-world notions of masculinity or femininity in Pathfinder, you don't have to. And given that it's a different world, with a different history and different cultures, the notions of what's "normal" gender expression for various cultures in the campaign setting don't necessarily match up to the Victorian era-1950s British/American notions of masculinity and femininity that U.S. culture treats as "traditional" now.
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This post by Jessica Price leads me to re-open this subject.
Specifically: "But I can attest that from the development and editorial side, that there's no "intentional strategy" to make sure the female characters are dressed revealingly. Quite the opposite, actually."
Its funny, the first part of that statement seems perfectly fine to me:
"But I can attest that from the development and editorial side, that there's no "intentional strategy" to make sure the female characters are dressed revealingly."
The second statement on the other hand is what has always troubled me most about Paizo's seeming and stated mindset...
"Quite the opposite, actually."
Yeah, that bothers me. It seems less like making the effort to see that everyone is treated equally (i.e. sexually stylized males in equal proportions to sexually stylized females) and is equally represented and more like the unfortunately all-too-common 'saming' of the sexes in a PC effort to sanitize rather than emphasize the wonderful differences between masculinity and femininity.
Please see my reply above.
The idea isn't to "sanitize" anything -- it's to make sure that a wide range of women exist in our material, because we're not interested in limiting who someone can be -- or the way they can dress -- because of their gender. In the 80+ adventure path volumes we've published, there are a ton of different ways both women and men are presented. Some women in Golarion love wearing elaborate dresses. Some women in Golarion have never worn a dress, and never will. Some women wear pants when going about their daily business, and wear dresses when they go to parties or weddings or the opera. Some women in Golarion come from cultures that have very different norms for clothing for men and women, and some come from cultures (or social groups) where there's not a lot of distinction....
I think that's a fair argument and an healthy position. I think I'd like to see it used more in response to those complaining that this image or that is too 'sexualized'... if women of all sorts are to be included and represented then that includes sexy ones as well. I've never seen a male poster get offended because ALL female characters aren't inherently sexualized - most seem to enjoy the diversity - but I've seen quite a few posters on the other side of the issue who seem to feel that any sexually appealing image of a woman is a betrayal and an insult.
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I don't really see a whole lot of people get offended that one character is sexualized, actually. There are plenty of people who express the opinion that too many of our female characters are dressed revealingly, or in Escher Girl poses. The closest I've seen to what you're describing is people asking what I think are legitimate questions about why a particular character is wearing skimpy clothing or has a cleavage window, when it might not really make sense for her profession.
I don't always agree with them -- I think, for example, that Amiri has a bare midriff precisely because it's a sign of vulnerability, and she's a badass. Her bare belly, to me, isn't a sexual invitation -- it's a boast that has nothing to do with sexuality. She wants you to see those scars and know that she survived them and will survive you.
But I have yet to see evidence that there's some contingent of people who think even one female character showing cleavage is too many.
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-3 C (40 F) would kill all the life in Bahia. But how you feel about going to work at 40 C (104 F) ?
I will also have you know that you're not alone. I go walking around in Maryland here in t-shirt and shorts, and pass by people basically wearing snowcoats, hats and mittens because they can't take a balmy 40 degree Fahrenheit day (~3 C). You southerners crack me up sometimes!===Aelryinth
I've ranged from -40 F (Grand Forks, ND) to 135 F (Balad AB, Iraq).
The idea isn't to "sanitize" anything -- it's to make sure that a wide range of women exist in our material, because we're not interested in limiting who someone can be -- or the way they can dress -- because of their gender.
Just want to say that I think this is a good approach by Paizo. I don't see many players who object to the existence of scantily clad female characters (unless given one as a pregen), but a lot of players (me included) do want fully clothed female characters, too.
I guess my views are just that (a) female warrior types like Amri should by default be properly armoured, same as male warrior types and (b) on Seoni specifically, her highly sexualised appearance is ok by me in principle for a Sorcerer/Sorceress character, but doesn't seem to fit well with her personality as presented - taken together it comes across as incongruous. I guess it would make more sense & be easiest just to have her act a bit more flirty/sexy in the comics etc, while keeping her iconic look unchanged.
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Just want to say that I think this is a good approach by Paizo. I don't see many players who object to the existence of scantily clad female characters (unless given one as a pregen), but a lot of players (me included) do want fully clothed female characters, too.
I guess my views are just that (a) female warrior types like Amri should by default be properly armoured, same as male warrior types and (b) on Seoni specifically, her highly sexualised appearance is ok by me in principle for a Sorcerer/Sorceress character, but doesn't seem to fit well with her personality as presented - taken together it comes across as incongruous. I guess it would make more sense & be easiest just to have her act a bit more flirty/sexy in the comics etc, while keeping her iconic look unchanged.
Just because Seoni isn't very sexual doesn't mean she can't show of skin. She's very proud of her arcane tattoos so she wears clothing that shows it off. And that's about it. Nudity isn't inherently sexual.
And I'm going to start fighting people over Amiri. She has a fantastic design.
Nothing wrong with the human (or shall I said humanoid) body.
It is 2014. Why are we still so puritanical and still hung up over the human body? Back in the 1980s it was no big deal and instead of progessing we are backsliding.
Maybe it's an American thing.
No, the neo-super-puritanical movement sadly is also a thing in Europe.
Nudity isn't inherently sexual.
No, but Seoni's outfit and depiction certainly is; it looks specifically designed for sexual allure over practical considerations. She could be wearing less cloth and be a lot less sexy. IRL example would be bikini design vs nudity: bikinis are typically designed to look sexy, whereas nudity isn't inherently sexual, as you say.
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Everybody, you stay away from my Seoni! Back away or I will unleash my miniature giant space hamster!
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Seoni is the Most Iconic Iconic ever.
The first images of Valeros and Seoni converted me to Parhfinder. That first Seoni pose is very sexual without being gratuitous. Valeros's pose is sexual too, according to my wife.
Seoni is just one of those people who exudes sexual magnetism, it would not matter if she were dressed like a Ninja, hood and all, she would just convey that. Trying to remove that element of her depiction is just not possible.
I think that after this amount of time and the sheer volume of Seoni art that I'm immune to her "hawtness", but she is still one of the most compelling images in all of the RPG art I've amassed over the years. There may be an element of Cheescake to it, but I would be surprised to read the artists view her as a sexual object. She is just "more" than that.
Her tightly reigned personality, emotional fortitude, obsessive behavior and tremendous personal charisma combine into an enigmatic being. She's beautiful yes but she has been consistently portrayed as being far more than pretty.
She is also exotic, almost a Mythical Creature. No other Varisian looks like her, her skin tone, hair color, eyes and tattoos make her much more than unusual, she is truly unique. So the "she should be dressed more like this...." argument holds no water with me. Varisians stay with their nomadic family groups, Seoni does not. Varisian women are notoriously sensual yet Seoni is not sexually forward. Yet her mode of dress is guaranteed to put her at the center of attention in virtually every situation. She is the long term planner, the schemer, the enigma.
She can cast Endure Elements and Mage Armor every day. So practicality is right out the window.
Let her be who she is.
Amiri, is probably the single best depiction of a barbarian in all of RPG history. She's tough, poor, uncultured and maybe a little mean. The people who want her in armor are forgetting that the iconics don't live in the "Monty Haul" campaigns where every barby has a Mithral Breast Plate at level 5. The live in Golarion, where Kellids are analogs for Conan the Cimmarion's people. They are poor, superstitious and tough. They also sometimes probably fight naked, because that's what barbarians actually did in our real world source material.
She's perfect. And she's wearing as much as Geronimo or Crazy Horse might have.
The Oracle iconic, forget her name, is dressed in ceremonial regalia. She's a Garundi, people who live in the deserts and hot arid plains of the South. She is wrapped in a loose, flowing, white robe too which is practical. The art we have from ancient Egypt shows similar attire. I just don't get hating on this one. Other than having the biggest cup size of the iconics this one isn't even portrayed in a very sexual way much.
The Goth Witch, is a Goth Witch. She made a pact with a supernatural power to derive magical ability outside of the usual channels of learning magic. Go ahead and project your moral compass at her, that's a lose/lose. She's not like you or anyone else you know.
She also has Endure Elements, so whatever.
Seelah, Merisel, Lini, the Gunslinger and the Half Orc all cover up pretty well. Even when it's hot and that would be uncomfortable.
I don't mind changing the look of Iconics, but that destroys the point of iconics.
If you change Sajan, Seoni, Amiri or Seltiyel you're just stealing some of the best character art concepts ever.
So I repeat.
Please leave Seoni alone and let her do her thing.
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True, however, she was born in the Land of the Linnorm Kings and raised by Irrisen Hags.
Which definitely endeared me to the Ulfen and Irrisen clothing styles and cultural practices. Where one is physically from matters very little. Its where one is going.
Dress for the job you want, not the one you used to have.
I did that once, but my boss told me I wasn't allowed to come to work dressed like Batman.
Here! Here!
Sajan/Seoni, beefcake/cheesecake. The point is people, it's all cake and cake is delicious.
So you punched him, held him out a window until you put the fear of You into him, and tied him to his chair, to be found in the morning?
Me too, actually, even though it makes less battle-sense to go without the helmet... so it's a bit frustrating to see her enter battle that way. But it's much nicer seeing her just... hanging around or performing rituals or things without it. It makes her seem more real.I'll agree to that.I personally like Mythic Kyra far more than normal Kyra.
Anyone else agree?
I actually really hate Mythic Kyra. Of all the Mythic Iconics, she's the only one who my entire gaming group only identified due to process of elimination. Aside from the tattoos on her cheeks and the maybe brown skin, she has nothing in common with the original art, and has lost all the cultural identifiers that made her one of the coolest of the core iconics. She used to clearly have middle-eastern ties. She's traded those away in Mythic for a trenchcoat. It's really, really bad.
I liked Classic Seoni more than Mythic Seoni, mostly because she seemed more staid and dull in the mythic art, and much more dynamic and cool in the original art.
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Me too, actually, even though it makes less battle-sense to go without the helmet... so it's a bit frustrating to see her enter battle that way. But it's much nicer seeing her just... hanging around or performing rituals or things without it. It makes her seem more real.I'll agree to that.I personally like Mythic Kyra far more than normal Kyra.
Anyone else agree?
I actually really hate Mythic Kyra. Of all the Mythic Iconics, she's the only one who my entire gaming group only identified due to process of elimination. Aside from the tattoos on her cheeks and the maybe brown skin, she has nothing in common with the original art, and has lost all the cultural identifiers that made her one of the coolest of the core iconics. She used to clearly have middle-eastern ties. She's traded those away in Mythic for a trenchcoat. It's really, really bad.
I liked Classic Seoni more than Mythic Seoni, mostly because she seemed more staid and dull in the mythic art, and much more dynamic and cool in the original art.
I like the art of mythic Kyra, in that she's cool-looking (that is, I would love it to death if it weren't supposed to be Kyra), but I was also sad that becoming mythic apparently meant unveiling for her.
Seoni is the Most Iconic Iconic ever.
The first images of Valeros and Seoni converted me to Parhfinder. That first Seoni pose is very sexual without being gratuitous. Valeros's pose is sexual too, according to my wife.
Seoni is just one of those people who exudes sexual magnetism, it would not matter if she were dressed like a Ninja, hood and all, she would just convey that. Trying to remove that element of her depiction is just not possible.
I think that after this amount of time and the sheer volume of Seoni art that I'm immune to her "hawtness", but she is still one of the most compelling images in all of the RPG art I've amassed over the years. There may be an element of Cheescake to it, but I would be surprised to read the artists view her as a sexual object. She is just "more" than that.
Her tightly reigned personality, emotional fortitude, obsessive behavior and tremendous personal charisma combine into an enigmatic being. She's beautiful yes but she has been consistently portrayed as being far more than pretty.
She is also exotic, almost a Mythical Creature. No other Varisian looks like her, her skin tone, hair color, eyes and tattoos make her much more than unusual, she is truly unique. So the "she should be dressed more like this...." argument holds no water with me. Varisians stay with their nomadic family groups, Seoni does not. Varisian women are notoriously sensual yet Seoni is not sexually forward. Yet her mode of dress is guaranteed to put her at the center of attention in virtually every situation. She is the long term planner, the schemer, the enigma.
She can cast Endure Elements and Mage Armor every day. So practicality is right out the window.Let her be who she is.
Amiri, is probably the single best depiction of a barbarian in all of RPG history. She's tough, poor, uncultured and maybe a little mean. The people who want her in armor are forgetting that the iconics don't live in the "Monty Haul" campaigns where every barby has a Mithral Breast Plate at...
Interesting analysis of Seoni - I will use that in future, thanks. :) I agree with you on all the Iconics except Amiri; she's not just a typical Kelid, she's a PC and will have access to wealth, gear etc. An Iconic 3e/PF Barbarian should wear a chain shirt - it's Iconic. :p
(Also I think I'm a bit sick of the whole Britney Spears bare midriff thing, it only looks good on a tiny minority of women and my eyes have suffered quite enough over the years...)I agree about the Oracle's priestess garb, to me that's a clearly appropriate depiction of a non-armour class (I would probably cover her belly too given the choice, but no big deal); same with the Witch.