In a recent session, our party's wizard perished in an electrified pool of water. His gear (and body) spent about a minute and a half in there, taking 150d6 of electricity damage while submerged.
The player has rolled up a new PC, also a wizard, and is wondering whether it will be feasible to recover the spellbook.
My gut reaction is "that thing is toast". But considering the new PC is starting as a prisoner and won't have access to his own spellbook until after at least one big fight, I'm thinking of letting him get hold of his predecessor's heavily damaged spellbook. Say, each spell has a 50% chance of being damaged beyond recovery, and the ones that survive can only be read once before the paper crumbles.
Is this at all reasonable? I really don't know what effect electricity would have on soggy paper. In open air it'd probably catch fire, but underwater that's not going to happen.
Are you asking about what would happen with real-world physics? Or do you want to know what the Pathfinder rules have to say about damage to items on a corpse?
@Democratus -- I'd prefer game rules if there are any. Real-world physics only as a fallback position.
@rorek:
1) the new PC doesn't -- it's pure player knowledge that he even asked.
2) The party was forced to flee the encounter. They could not retrieve the dead wizard, and also left behind one party member (an archer, now a dominated puppet). The baddies retrieved the dead wizard and now have all of his gear (the bits that survived).
I'm thinking that they discarded the spellbook as too damaged to use, but allowing the new PC to find it later and get at least a few spells out of it.
Because otherwise he's going to have nothing but cantrips during a fight with a CR 13 baddy.
what level are we? possibly let him find a wand or two before the fight?
if lower levels please remember wizards can use there (school abilities) without a book.
Assuming the electrical attack is a continuing, area-of-effect spell then the book is toast.
Quote:
Saving Throws: Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).
Magic items get saving throws. A magic item's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.
@rorek -- PCs are level 10, and in serious, serious trouble. For the full gory detail, see this thread (spoilers for The Harrowing).
@Democratus -- hrm. That is problematic. Thanks for the rules quote! I may have to find some other way for the new PC to have at least some spells when he starts.
If the book is inside a bag/backpack then it may be okay. This is because the electric shock has no Line of Effect to the book and is thus unable to do any damage to it.
You could rule that the spellbook was wrapped in velum and packed inside the backpack. If the body/backpack is retrieved in a reasonable amount of time then it could survive.
I think I may do that. The player hasn't said so, but I assume that any wizard would take care to secure his spellbook at least as far as wrapping it up and sticking it in a backpack.
And the baddies would have pulled him out of the pool shortly after the rest of the party fled. Baddies like loot too.
If the book is inside a bag/backpack then it may be okay. This is because the electric shock has no Line of Effect to the book and is thus unable to do any damage to it.
Except that kind of damage would be enough to destroy the backpack, then the wrapping, then the book and basically ruin everything in there.
Plus if the electricity didn't do the trick, spellbooks aren't water-proof.
In real world physics paper is a pretty good insulator and is also difficult to burn in book form.
I'm not sure what that much electrical damage could do exactly. I've heard that some people survived a direct hit by a lightning, but I've also heard a story about a group of people who went fishing. They had a carbon-fibre fishing rod and touched a high voltage line. It resulted in a fireball and not much was left even from a dog that was with them. I once created a small fireball with a thin copper wire and electrical outlet, so it's easy to believe.
If we weren't using game mechanics for damage, I would say that the DC to copy any spell from the old spell book to the new is increased by 5 or 10, and any failure indicates that the page in the old book is ruined beyond reading from sitting in ex-wizard stew.
Was it waterproof? Was it made of any special material that could have possibly granted it the ability to float? Was it made from special material? How much damage did it take 150? 900? how is that much damage is possible from a pool of water?
At that point if there where any electrolytes in the water solution or impurities your party would have witnessed electro-chemically activated water solution. (it had to be to be able to conduct electricity, distilled water does not conduct electricity properly at all) meaning that you would have a large quantity of oxygen and hydrogen liberated in the air, assuming that there would be a high voltage current (150d6 is a lot of electricity) that could have ignited the oxygen and the hydrogen gases present in the direct vicinity (assuming your PCs where in a enclosed space such as a dungeon or a cave), resulting in a HUGE explosion! (we are talking about the same fuel they use to send rockets to space here!)
So the real question is: is your party still alive after taking about 75d6 of sonic/fire damage (reflex save for half)?
The other possibility is that your wizard corpse and most of is metallic gear would act as some sort of heating element (hey remember 150d6! great wyrm blue dragon cannot even reach that much power electricity wise) immediately transforming your basin of water into a super heated cloud of burning steam dealing about again 75D6 of fire damage, transforming the immediate surrounding of the water basin into a pressure steam cooker. Both suffocating and cooking inside out the Party.
No that book is not ever usable, it's gone, so is the corpse of the the wizard, so is all of his gear.
He didn't say, 150d6 damage in one go, he said it was 10d6 each round for about 15 consecutive rounds (one round is 6 seconds).
IIRC there is another rule, that water blocks AoE spells or something of the sort. If the book was submerged most of the time, it only took a hit from the first lightning and was inside a backpack at the time, which greatly increases the chance it survived.
As for water damage, well, wet paper wraps when drying and ink dissolves when wet, so it can be a problem.
I also wonder how would mending and make whole affect something half-burnt and smudged. I believe the rules say that if something is destroyed, it can't be magically fixed, but if it is only partially broken, then it can.
He didn't say, 150d6 damage in one go, he said it was 10d6 each round for about 15 consecutive rounds (one round is 6 seconds).
IIRC there is another rule, that water blocks AoE spells or something of the sort. If the book was submerged most of the time, it only took a hit from the first lightning and was inside a backpack at the time, which greatly increases the chance it survived.
As for water damage, well, wet paper wraps when drying and ink dissolves when wet, so it can be a problem.
I also wonder how would mending and make whole affect something half-burnt and smudged. I believe the rules say that if something is destroyed, it can't be magically fixed, but if it is only partially broken, then it can.
Seems pretty unlikely to me that water blocks electricity AoE spells. Unless you're talking about line of sight or something, which might be distorted.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a rule somewhere, that is someone or something is underwater, you can't target it with (some?) spells from outside the water and must at least put a hand under there. So water could block line of effect from a trap. I think.
Was it made of any special material that could have possibly granted it the ability to float?
No. However, the pool of water is only about 4 feet deep at its deepest point, so getting stuff out is not difficult (if you have some way to deal with electricity, which the baddies did).
Laiho Vanallo wrote:
Was it made from special material?
No.
Laiho Vanallo wrote:
How much damage did it take?
Rather than roll 150d6, I'll assume it's taking average damage. 3.5 * 150 = 525 damage.
With that many dice it'd almost certainly be pretty close to the average even if I did roll it manually.
Laiho Vanallo wrote:
How is that much damage possible from a pool of water?
All right, here are the exact specifications for said pool of water.
Spoilers for The Harrowing:
The lair of Zassrion, the Big Bad of this module, is the Striding Fortress: a castle that roams the countryside on giant mechanical legs.
The pool of water is just the top of the giant battery that stores the energy to power the castle's legs. In order to store enough power for that, the battery has to be pretty dang big. Zassrion, being a blue dragon, periodically recharges the battery with his breath weapon, using the pool as an access point.
It also doubles as a rather nice hot tub for his harem of three succubi, who are immune to electricity. It lends the water a nice fizzy tingle. As for why the battery has water pool built in, you'd have to ask the module author. I'm guessing the answer would be either "alchemy" or "magic".
The adventure specifies that the electric current deals 2d6/round for contact with the pool; full immersion causes 10d6 per round. The wizard died and fell into the pool in round 1. Since he was dead before he hit the water, he couldn't swim, and the weight of his gear (he carries a lot of gear thanks to Muleback Cords) dragged him to the bottom immediately.
The fight went 11 rounds before the rest of the party fled (except for one dominated archer, who got left behind).
It would take the baddies a few rounds to deal with assorted other fallout from the combat before one of them retrieved the wizard. Since they're likely greedy and wouldn't let that tasty gear sit TOO long, I settled on extracting him 4 rounds after the end of the combat, for a total of 15 rounds of immersion, and hence 150d6 of electricity damage.
And one stewed wizard. I am perhaps depraved, but it was rather fun describing his limbs thrashing in galvanic response to the electricity.
> Rather than roll 150d6, I'll assume it's taking average damage. 3.5 * 150 = 525 damage.
Minus 15 * hardness, which a book doesn't have that much of. Looks like anything not immune to electricity that fell into that pool pretty much burned and dissolved.
Remember, you halve the damage before hardness, so 262. Paper has a hardness of 0 and 2 HP per inch, so if it's 75 or fewer inches thick, it's destroyed even with minimum damage.
If we weren't using game mechanics for damage, I would say that the DC to copy any spell from the old spell book to the new is increased by 5 or 10, and any failure indicates that the page in the old book is ruined beyond reading from sitting in ex-wizard stew.
If I were of a mind to allow a result other than "toast" I'd probably second this general idea (bumping the DC). And you mentioned he has cantrip access so depending on your view point Mending may be of some benefit in at least rendering the writing intelligible enough to allow him to decipher and copy into a new spell book if not outright allowing him to repair it. Note also that Read Magic doesn't need to be in a spell book to be memorized and automatically deciphers another wizards arcane writings (such as in a spellbook) Further even if deciphered the reader still needs a Spellcraft check each time they use the 'foreign' spellbook no matter how many times they have previously and successfully used the spell book.
CRB->Arcane Magical Writings:
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in his own way. Another person's magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until he takes time to study and decipher it.
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.
Once a character deciphers a particular piece of magical writing, he does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing is a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, he can attempt to use the scroll.
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster's book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. He must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times he has prepared it before. If the check fails, he cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. However, as explained above, he does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.
Remember, you halve the damage before hardness, so 262. Paper has a hardness of 0 and 2 HP per inch, so if it's 75 or fewer inches thick, it's destroyed even with minimum damage.
I've always figured that the ineffective weapons clause applies to energy attacks as well as mundane weapons, even though it's not explicitly listed as an example. Otherwise, wouldn't acid eat it's way out the bottom of the flask before you got the chance to throw it?
Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.
I can see electricity not having much effect on a soggy book, or a soggy bag holding a tightly wrapped soggy book, or what have you. So long as there's water present to keep the book from catching fire, I'm inclined to let it survive.
Basically, OP, if you want the player to have the book, there's enough wiggle room in the rules to make it happen. I say start with what you think will be good for your game, hen work out the justifications after the fact. Odds are unless it really strains credulity, your players are not going to give you the third degree over it.
There is a rule that some objects might be immune to some kinds of damage or that they could, at least, be more resistant to it. Because of this rule the next part is not only relevant to real world physics:
Can electricity damage a book? Yes, but mainly by burning it. Would a book burn while under water? No.
Thus it boils down to the question whether being in water damaged the book or not. The electricity should not have affected it much.
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