Pathfinder or 3.5 for CotCC


Curse of the Crimson Throne


My players and I are new to Pathfinder and I would like to ask fellow members whether switching to Pathfinder is advisable for this campaign.

Pro of staying with 3.5
-We are already familiar with 3.5 so we can basically start right away
-No need for each of us to fork out the money for the Pathfinder rulebook
-we enjoyed playing with 3.5

Pro of switching to Pathfinder
-stay current as well as making it easy to play future scenarios
-more support from this website
-looking at the Pathfinder rules, I see a lot of similarities so it may not be too difficult to switch

Other factors to consider.
As I recalled, CotCC was written during 3.5 so it may make sense to use 3.5.
How superior is Pathfinder over 3.5 or is it just a few minor tweeks.
In addition, any advise or suggestions on running this campaign will be greatly appreciated.

Tim


I would run it in 3.5 to avoid all the conversion work.

I am running it now and converting it to Pathfinder.


Lakesidefantasy wrote:

I would run it in 3.5 to avoid all the conversion work.

I am running it now and converting it to Pathfinder.

Not knowing too much about pathfinder, what do you do for conversion?


Well, first and foremost, Pathfinder characters and monsters are generally tougher. BAB and Hit die are directly linked for the base classes. Half BAB classes (Wizard, Sorcerer etc.) got bumped up to d6 hit die instead of d4, 3/4 BAB clases (Rogue, Bard, Monk etc) all have d8 hit die, full BAB classes (Ranger, Fighter, Paladin etc) all have d10 hit die, with the exception of the Barbarian who has d12.

All of the classes are, generally, better than they were in the previous edition. Either they were expanded to be more powerful (and fit their role) or they were given more versatility. Fighters, for instance, don't just gain feats anymore, they also gain small bonuses with their armor (able to move faster, increase max Dex mod) or scaling bonuses with their weapons (select a 'group' of weapons and gain a scaling attack and damage bonus).

Beware the Paladin. His job is to crush evil, and he's damned good at it. If you have a Paladin in your group in Pathfinder, don't expect evil enemies to be alive for very long. Against non-evil enemies, he's still a solid character, but against evil enemies, he spring-boards to the head of the pack and whoops ass.

What this means is that if you played Pathfinder characters in a 3.5 campaign, you'll find them hitting harder, and lasting longer than they would have if it they were playing 3.5 characters. This is both a good, and a bad thing, as some encounters will become trivial, while others become more survivable.

As with any AP, a GM should be trying to get a 'read' of his players, their strategies and group dynamic to better tailor the campaign to the group. APs are designed around the concept of 15 pt. buy Wizard, Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and if you deviate from that assumption, you will find that the game either becomes a lot harder, or a lot easier. On top of the 3.5 edition, you might find that a 20 pt. buy Barbarian, Bard, Wizard, Cleric, Ranger group will be stomping face through the AP without much challenge.

On the conversion side, there are some excellent conversions located on the boards already, they just require some digging. Father Dale and Steve42 have some fantastic conversions (though Dales are re-builds in most cases and very powerful ones at that). Also, since you are now running CotCT at this stage in Pathfinder, much of the conversion has already been done for you by Paizo themselves.

Back when I first started CotCT, conversions were a little difficult because there was only Bestiary 1, now there are 4 full Bestiaries and a load of options for a GM to choose from. Most monsters have already been converted, so all you have to do is look up it's stats and slap it in, instead of trying to do it yourself.

Keep in mind, you have phenomenal resources in the form of the Paizo PRD, d20PFSRD, Pathfinder Community and the Archive of Nethys to name a few. Each of the above is a repository of published Paizo content with their own strengths and weaknesses.

The PRD (Paizo's official repository) is, great, however it has some definite downsides. Chief among them is that the PRD only contains setting neutral content (so no Golarion specific material). It also only updates with actual Errata, not the FAQs that might clarify or slightly alter some rules content. So the PRD might be out of date.

The d20PFSRD is kind of the premier resource. It's fan run and maintained by fans (which makes some people think it isn't as good as the 'official' product), however, in my experience, it's vastly superior to that of the PRD. It holds nearly every bit of data Paizo publishes (some items are specifically removed for weird reasons), setting neutral or not. It also has lots of helpful tips and sidebars on the site to further help your browsing. However, it has changed the names of some material to conform with the OGL (like Dawnflower Dervish is renamed Dervish of Dawn to avoid copyright issues). The d20PFSRD also quickly updates with any FAQs or Errata that is released, as it's done by fans, not over-worked and underpaid Website Admins.

Pathfinder Community is the sister site to the d20PFSRD and contains the Golarion specific names of feats, classes and the life that are changed on the PFSRD. For example, it has Dawnflower Dervish instead of Dervish of Dawn.

The Archive of Nethys is, I believe, someones personal repository of knowledge that they update and maintain. Many of the things I've noticed that have been specifically removed from the PFSRD, are on the Archives of Nethys. As an example, the Dueling enhancement was removed from the PFSRD for some reason, but remains on the Archive of Nethys.

Between the above 4 resources, you should find every bit of published content you need to run the game. Paizo's PRD can also be purchased as an App for your smart devices (iPod/iPad and Android).

Kyle Olson created a fantastic Combat Manager program that is also available as an App. It lets you more easily run combats by keeping track of initiative, spell durations, monster HP and the like. If you have large party size, or a large combat, it's a must have. Even for normal party sizes it's still an amazing tool as it lets you do some minor monster editing on the fly.

Hero Labs by Lone Wolf Development is a very useful (if expensive) character creator. It helps you quickly create NPCs so you can move on to prep other things. It was a big help for me as I tended to re-create all the NPCs in the AP for my party due to a 25. pt buy and large size mandated tougher enemies.

Whew! Now that the above is out of the way.

I suggest running CotCT as a Pathfinder game, if only because of the support you will receive from the boards. Myself and others are still active on the CotCT boards, and there is lots of ideas and advice to be shared. Not only that, James Jacobs, the Creative Director of Pathdfinder, has an extremely strong presence across the boards, especially on his Ask *James Jacobs* ALL your Questions Here! thread. If you have questions or concerns about the AP you can ask them in the threads dedicated to each chapter, or you can ask them on his personal thread (though keep in mind to use the [ spoiler= *title* ] [ /spoiler ] tag if you have spoilers).

Running will also let you and your players learn and become more comfortable with Pathfinder. For the most part, Pathfinder and 3.5 are the same game. Outside of some class buffs, and the change to the Combat Maneuvers system, they really are completely compatible. Some spells and feats got changed with either a nerf or a buff, but most of those won't really impact how the game is going to be played.

Except archery. Archery is a very solid choice for a character in Pathfinder. A well-built archer can have a strong presence on the battleboard. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as archery was awful in 3.5, but some GMs find themselves acting as a deer in headlights when it comes to archery.

Converting CotCT to Pathfinder can be a lot, or a little, work depending on how much time you want to dedicate to it. If you're like me, it will be a lot of work, because I like putting my personal touch on just about every encounter in the game. I modified everything in the AP to some extent. If you just want to play it as written, you can take the 'easier' (though very vaild) approach of simply tossing in an extra enemy or two to buff up the encounters. For instance, instead of the encounter calling for 3 plague doctors, make it 4 or 5.

A total conversion also depends on how 'deep' into Pathfinder you want to delve. With the aid of the above resources (except Hero Labs which costs lots of money), you can play Pathfinder, essentially, for free. If you really want to delve deep into the Pathfinder game, you can do a lot on the conversion, which turns much of the AP into a re-write. For example, in the second chapter (Seven Days to the Grave) instead of the Plague Doctors being Rogues, you can make them Alchemists (think magical mad bombers) which fits their flavor a lot better.

The biggest hurdle when it comes to the conversions, is the NPCs. Curse of the Crimson Throne is a little heavy in encounters involving humans with class levels, rather than monsters. For the most part, this isn't a big deal if you decide to just go with what's written, but for people like me, I rebuilt every NPC with class levels in the game. Sometimes 4 or 5 times.

If you don't feel like re-building all of the NPCs, then you can, mostly, just run the AP as written. In this case, I would give enemies a little boost on HP (maybe a 50% increase) if only to help counter act the increase in power of the Pathfinder characters.

=====================================================

Now, outside of converting to Pathfinder, remaining in 3.5 is still a strong choice. One of the downsides is you might find less support (I myself don't even know where all my 3.5 content is anymore) but you will still receive it here. The forums are, first and foremost, a gaming forum, be it 3.5 2E, 4E, Pathfinder, Rifts what-have-you. If you need help or advice, you can find it here.

Running it in 3.5 will be easier, you also have the benefit of drawing from the tons of content published. Paizo hasn't been slouching on publishing character or GM options, but they haven't caught up to the 3.5 content yet.

The downside, is of course, that you may not have as much support, or help, from the Pathfinder players. You are also playing an edition that is receiving no further attention from it's publisher as well.

However, if you guys are comfortable playing 3.5 then keep right on playing it. Something you might do if you wish to convert in the future, is simply look over the PFSRD for changes in the rules, and maybe implementing them on a case by case scenario. For example, the Combat Maneuver system in Pathfinder is greatly simplified compared to the 3.5 system, and might warrant a look at.

Wow, this post went on a lot longer than I thought it would. I'm fairly certain I've rambled in a few places, but I hope I helped in your decision making.


I've been running the campaign in Pathfinder, with the help of free Pathfinder NPC conversions, and it's been great. Hasn't been a problem at all.

If you're running in Pathfinder you absolutely need to use the free conversions, or it will be too easy.

The real crux of the issue is whether you want to start playing Pathfinder or if you want to stay with 3.5.

Personally, I think Pathfinder is a much better (and balanced) game system with lots of fun options that 3.5 didn't have. And it's current, which means I get to enjoy playing PFS (so I don't have to GM all the time).

Most of the changes in Pathfinder were done to character creation (and re-balancing spells), so the combat and skill systems are almost identical. Basically anyone who knows 3.5 can play Pathfinder with no coaching.

Having said that, some of the changes are subtle (Ex. Sneak attack now affects almost every opponent), so it's likely you will be making some mistakes for awhile, but it's not a big deal.

Either way, welcome to the boards!


Most of monsters (or even all) have already been converted to Pathfinder in Bestiaries. The NPCs have been converted by various people. I'm using these conversions in my current CotCT campaign. Unfortunately, not all of NPCs have been converted, but NPC Codex is great for that sort of thing. I only convert important NPCs by myself.

Scarab Sages

Tels wrote:
The Archive of Nethys is, I believe, someones personal repository of knowledge that they update and maintain. Many of the things I've noticed that have been specifically removed from the PFSRD, are on the Archives of Nethys. As an example, the Dueling enhancement was removed from the PFSRD for some reason, but remains on the Archive of Nethys.

The Archives of Nethys is as much a personal repository as the d20pfsrd is. They both use the exact text from all of Paizo's books, with the main difference being that the d20pfsrd is not allowed to use the Community Use Policy (they are a commercial site with a store) while the Archives can. This means that a lot of the Golarion-specific flavor was removed from d20pfsrd, while it is still present on the Archives.

As for that Dueling link, it was called out separately because someone pointed out that the version in the Field Guide is significantly different from the other versions, and thus could be handy to have listed separately.

Regardless of the differences, keep in mind that both are third-party sites and not at all official resources when it comes to the Pathfinder RPG. Only the PRD is that. Both *are* very handy as references, but players should still endeavor to check the books/PRD to ensure certain material is correct before utilizing it.


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Karui Kage wrote:
Tels wrote:
The Archive of Nethys is, I believe, someones personal repository of knowledge that they update and maintain. Many of the things I've noticed that have been specifically removed from the PFSRD, are on the Archives of Nethys. As an example, the Dueling enhancement was removed from the PFSRD for some reason, but remains on the Archive of Nethys.

The Archives of Nethys is as much a personal repository as the d20pfsrd is. They both use the exact text from all of Paizo's books, with the main difference being that the d20pfsrd is not allowed to use the Community Use Policy (they are a commercial site with a store) while the Archives can. This means that a lot of the Golarion-specific flavor was removed from d20pfsrd, while it is still present on the Archives.

As for that Dueling link, it was called out separately because someone pointed out that the version in the Field Guide is significantly different from the other versions, and thus could be handy to have listed separately.

Regardless of the differences, keep in mind that both are third-party sites and not at all official resources when it comes to the Pathfinder RPG. Only the PRD is that. Both *are* very handy as references, but players should still endeavor to check the books/PRD to ensure certain material is correct before utilizing it.

Despite being official, the PRD is actually a bad resource in some ways because of the policy of only updating with official errata (that is, what makes it into the reprints of books) instead of all of the FAQs as well. For example, if one were to go by the 'book and PRD' then one could buy a Ring of Continuation and get 24 hour time stops, which was specifically changed in this FAQ. My personal beef with the PRD is that Paizos update policy on it invalidates the authority of the PRD because, despite being official, it is not the correct resource. I stopped using the PRD because I had to constantly check the FAQs to verify whether or not what was on it, was still correct, whereas on the PFSRD, one knew the information was correct, because they included the FAQs into the database.

As for the Archive, as far as I can tell, it is someone's personal collection of Paizo books in a database form. The PFSRD, however, is a 'public' database and contains more than just Paizo products.

The dueling enhancement on the PFSRD was, at one point, listed as 'Dueling-FG and Dueling' so one could differentiate. They took down the Field Guide version and never put it back up and I'm unsure if any other such things were left out.


Go with 3.5e, I say.


tim yeh wrote:
Lakesidefantasy wrote:

I would run it in 3.5 to avoid all the conversion work.

I am running it now and converting it to Pathfinder.

Not knowing too much about pathfinder, what do you do for conversion?

Basically what Tels said above, but then I'm a glutton for punishment and I don't trust anybodies work but my own.

You paint miniatures, so you probably don't have extra time. If I were you I would stick with Dungeons and Dragons (are it feels nice to say those three words again) and cherry pick fun stuff from Pathfinder. Like choosing alchemist for the Queen's Physicians, I made them into poisoner rogues, but to each his own.

Dark Archive

I have completed a conversion of the first book here on the boards
Whiterose's Curse of the Crimson Throne conversion (3.5 > Pathfinder)
Unfortunately RL has slowed down my conversion of the second book to something considerably slower than a crawl, but I am working on it.


Thanks Tels and everybody else for your input. From what I'm hearing it does not seem to me that converting to Pathfinder is an absolute necessity at the moment. I will go with 3.5 for this session while learning Pathfinder on the side.

At which AP does Pathfinder rule start to appear?

@Lakeside, just curious how did you know that I paint miniatures. In fact miniatures and the visual components of D&D is important to me and I've planned on spending a month to work on the minis and the dungeons for the 1st book. Our group usually play board games in between adventures so that I can work on the dungeons.


Curse of the Crimson Throne was written for 3.5, so Pathfinder rules never appear.

They would only appear if you take builds/suggestions off these boards, since most people run in PF.


Legacy of Fire is the last 3.5 AP, I believe Kingmaker is the first Pathfinder RPG Adventure Path.

If you feel like learning some of the changes to Pathinder, I recommend the Price of Immortality series. It's a three book series that starts with Crypt of the Everflame, then follows with Masks of the Living God, and finished with City of Golden Death. It's designed to take 4 characters using the Medium XP track from 1 - 8th I believe. It's got a variety of challenges from traps, to combat, to social encounters and dungeon crawls. It's kind of designed to introduce people to the various changes to Pathfinder and should be played as a kind of 'tutorial' by looking up the rules and changes as you run through the adventure.


No, Council of Thieves is the first. Kingmaker is the second.


Orthos wrote:
No, Council of Thieves is the first. Kingmaker is the second.

That's right. I often forget that one because I never hear anyone talk about it.


I mostly know cause I'm playing it right now =)


I am using 3.5 - mostly because I prefer the flavour.


yep also if you're group is familiar with 3.5 and not PF then stick with 3.5. Less work for everybody and really there is no substantial benefit to switch to PF if you're using this AP. Its a great AP (probably the best actually), happy gaming!


Jason S wrote:

I've been running the campaign in Pathfinder, with the help of free Pathfinder NPC conversions, and it's been great. Hasn't been a problem at all.

If you're running in Pathfinder you absolutely need to use the free conversions, or it will be too easy.

The real crux of the issue is whether you want to start playing Pathfinder or if you want to stay with 3.5.

Personally, I think Pathfinder is a much better (and balanced) game system with lots of fun options that 3.5 didn't have. And it's current, which means I get to enjoy playing PFS (so I don't have to GM all the time).

Most of the changes in Pathfinder were done to character creation (and re-balancing spells), so the combat and skill systems are almost identical. Basically anyone who knows 3.5 can play Pathfinder with no coaching.

Having said that, some of the changes are subtle (Ex. Sneak attack now affects almost every opponent), so it's likely you will be making some mistakes for awhile, but it's not a big deal.

Either way, welcome to the boards!

this was a very well written reply and i found to be informative, and as a GM that ran a Group of PF charatcers thru the original RoTRL AP, yes they are stronger and most encounters were not a challenge. also agree about D20PFSRD, found several good conversions that aided me.


I prefer Pathfinder to 3.5 at this point. Much less hassle of players bringing in some magazine or book and then Wild Shaping into an obscure variant of bat with free trip attacks or something. Conversions are easy enough to do for CotCT, especially if you've got access to something like Hero Lab to throw together new versions of opponents. I just had my group fight a certain rogue who I changed to a Slayer from the new playtest and it fared quite well.

If you have your heart set on 3.5, go with it, but I doubted Pathfinder when I first picked up the Core book and I've never turned back.

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