Hmm... That is interesting. I'm going to build a tiger animal companion in a few minutes - 6 HD, so we can compare the two.
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Okay, what am I missing. I know I am missing something, but what am I missing. All of the sudden, handle animal looks like one heck of a skill.
Well, DM discretion for one... it states in the book that prices and availability can vary widely at the DMs discretion. Any DM that allows a group to have a 6 HD non-class/feat pet prior to the appropriate level is not paying attention.
Then there is training, it is not an animal companion so it gets no extra tricks, limiting what it can do. Also since it is not an Animal Companion it is a Move action to "handle" and a full round action to "push". And if handle animal is not a class skill, unless you have a great CHA mod, you are looking at a close to 50-50 control chance with a handle roll, not to mention it can get worse with any damage. Push attempts without a lot of handle animal are almost out of the question.
As drogos mentioned, getting an amimal that is not a companion to actually fight is much more challenging. That and many gms simply wouldnt allow you to obtain a tiger that would allow you to mount it outside of an animal companion.
Big Cat “Tiger” Animal Companion (6 HD)
Issues I see with the purchased pet. Animals without an int of 3+ cannot put ranks into swim, acrobatics, stealth, or perception. There is no way to get the pet’s skills that high without putting ranks into those skills.
*6 HD occurs at both level 6 and 7. The difference is that tigers advance to large at Level 7.
Level 6 Master
N Medium animal
Init: +8; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+4 Dex, +5 natural, 0 size)
hp 33 (6d8+6)
Fort +6, Ref +9, Will +4
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +7 (1d6+2 plus grab), bite +6 (1d6+2 plus grab)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 claws +7, 1d6+2)
STATISTICS
Str 15, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 2+1 =3, Wis 15, Cha 10
Base Atk +4; CMB +6 (+10 grapple); CMD 20 (24 vs. trip)
Feats Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (claw), Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Acrobatics (1+4+3+4): +12, Perception (3+2+3) +8, Stealth (1+4+3+4/8) +12 (+16 in areas of tall grass), Swim (1+1+3) +5; Racial Modifiers +4 Acrobatics, +4 Stealth (+8 in tall grass)
Animal Companion Bonus: Link, Share Spell, Evasion, Devotion
------------Level 7 Master
N Large animal
Init +7; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+3 Dex, +7 natural, –1 size)
hp 45 (6d8+18)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +12 (1d8+6 plus grab), bite +11 (1d8+6 plus grab)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 claws +12, 1d8+6)
STATISTICS
Str 23, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 2+1 = 3, Wis 15, Cha 10
Base Atk +4; CMB +11 (+15 grapple); CMD 24 (28 vs. trip)
Feats Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (claw), Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Acrobatics (1+3+3+4) +11, Perception (3+2+3) +8, Stealth (1+3+3+4/8) +11 (+15 in areas of tall grass), Swim (1+6+3) +10; Racial Modifiers +4 Acrobatics, +4 Stealth (+8 in tall grass)
Animal Companion Bonus: Link, Share Spell, Evasion, Devotion
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There is plenty more of issues with a Purchased Tiger (or any other beast, actually), you have to feed it regularly, you will find yourself spending three times the price of the tiger just in food in less than a month. Fail to feed him, and you and your group will have a CR 6 encounter instead of an ally.
What I am trying to say is whoever made the stat block for the tiger for sale did it wrong.
Big Cat “Tiger” Animal Companion (6 HD)
Issues I see with the purchased pet. Animals without an int of 3+ cannot put ranks into swim, acrobatics, stealth, or perception. There is no way to get the pet’s skills that high without putting ranks into those skills.
citation please? I wasn't aware of that limitation. I'm not doubting, just curious! I have a druid in my game and now I want to double check her stat sheet!!
Oops, you're right Zedth.
Huh?
Animal Skills
Animal companions can have ranks in any of the following skills: Acrobatics* (Dex), Climb* (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Fly* (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Perception* (Wis), Stealth* (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim* (Str). All of the skills marked with an (*) are class skills for animal companions. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can put ranks into any skill.
Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth, and Swim are class skills for animals.
I agree that whoever priced the trained tiger at 500 gp GROSSLY underpriced it. A heavy warhorse is 300 gold, and it's not remotely as bad-ass as a tiger. An untrained elephant clocks in at 1,000 gp and an untrained mastodon clocks in at 2,000. Trained ones apparently aren't normally for sale.
A trained hippogriff, which is a much weaker Int 2 critter at CR 2 but capable of flying, clocks in at 5,000 gold.
A combat-trained griffon, a CR 4 critter, clocks in at 8,000 gp, though both Ultimate Equipment and the bestiary entry note that griffons are intelligent (they're Int 5) and that trying to buy one can amount to trying to engage in slavery. I hadn't read the PF griffon entry until now and that is pretty amusing.
The tiger price is probably missing a zero. It hasn't been corrected because the Player's Companion Books don't usually get corrected.
That being said, your combat trained attack tiger still has some issues - combat-training is the specific package that allows it to bear a rider. Combat-training excludes the necessary additional training required to get the critter to attack even a weak supernatural foe (like zombies, a nuglub gremlin, a quasit, or a grindylow). So you're looking at a DC 25 handle animal check to get that tiger to kill a CR 1 or 1/2 nuisance. Depending on your campaign, this might be a bit of a problem.
Now, you can get around that by giving up on training it to be a steed. The fighting and guarding training packages leave room for the extra Attack training.
There is plenty more of issues with a Purchased Tiger (or any other beast, actually), you have to feed it regularly, you will find yourself spending three times the price of the tiger just in food in less than a month. Fail to feed him, and you and your group will have a CR 6 encounter instead of an ally.He will feed on the monsters and will help the party find food as we hunt in the wilderness.
This is a really really really bad idea. The general consensus I've gotten from the origonal post is the propensity to treat the "trained combat tiger" like its some soet of surry pet.
But the general tging from the rules us you can expect a non ac tiger to act like a rl tiger. This means feeding it humanoidd which look a lot like you is basically suicide.
In rl people trained to deal with the animals get killed by tigers just becsuse some instince kicks in. Betting your life on finding enough meat every day is basically suicide.
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It all depends on your take on fantasy, your gm and your gaming style.
In the right environment tigres may be pretty common. With magic they might be pretty easy to train, thus you might get them pretty cheap, as the price stated. This subject has been raised before. A heavy warhorse can be pretty awesome in a fight, a tiger is better.
If tigers are that easy to come by then should they be part of NPC basic equipment? If that's your world mechanics, encounters become somewhat harder. Is the mount the encounter, do you always consider it in the CR? After all, take out the rider, the mount is out of the fight... (A heavy horse is CR2 by itself).
You have to think what you are doing to the game and what consequences that might have. Some things in game don't have to balance power with cost, in many games you simply won't be able to get a trained tiger. In those you can, enjoy, but be prepared for how the gm will balance things.
Also be prepared for if someone controls it and turns it on you, +4 will save is pretty poor...
Now I suppose a GM could make his world where lions, tigers, bears, rocs, wolves, etc... are dangerous to those around them at all times. However, if that is the case, it would be the case for these beast whether animal companion or not. Animal Companions have to eat too.
Many gms do put limits on animal companions both practically and roleplay wise in terms of bringing them into towns and such, but animal companions have a big advantage here over just a tiger. A tiger is a tiger, an animal companion (tiger or not) a magical and empathic link to a druid. The idea that an animal companion is more controlled and generally safer then a 'trained' tiger is pretty solid. Simple training does not make a wild animal safe, or domesticated. Magic certainly could though.
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There is plenty more of issues with a Purchased Tiger (or any other beast, actually), you have to feed it regularly, you will find yourself spending three times the price of the tiger just in food in less than a month. Fail to feed him, and you and your group will have a CR 6 encounter instead of an ally.He will feed on the monsters and will help the party find food as we hunt in the wilderness.This is a really really really bad idea. The general consensus I've gotten from the origonal post is the propensity to treat the "trained combat tiger" like its some soet of surry pet.
But the general tging from the rules us you can expect a non ac tiger to act like a rl tiger. This means feeding it humanoidd which look a lot like you is basically suicide.
In rl people trained to deal with the animals get killed by tigers just becsuse some instince kicks in. Betting your life on finding enough meat every day is basically suicide.
Non ac tiger and real tiger both have Int 2 (until 3rd level when most people raise the Int to 3). There is otherwise no difference between the two.
So the argument you are making against the tiger mount could be made against the wolf animal companion mount and I suspect any other mount that is meat eating.
This is not real world. This is Pathfinder. Beast are ridden like people in the real world ride bicycles. People take their pet wolves into taverns to eat with them.
Now I suppose a GM could make his world where lions, tigers, bears, rocs, wolves, etc... are dangerous to those around them at all times. However, if that is the case, it would be the case for these beast whether animal companion or not. Animal Companions have to eat too.
Yes, yes, a beast like a tiger, wolf and even an impatience warhorse are anti-social and can attack bystanders and even their owners. They demand high amounts of food and, if their owners do not provide food for them, they will leave or simply attack any potential food source nearby. But not a Animal Companion, you know why? Because they have a LINK with their humanoid companion. This ability allows them to understand their master's needs (hence the free action to handle animal), they frequently fetch food for themselves and come back to their humanoids friends.
Of course, unfortunatelly, nothing of this is written in rules, you can have your bicicle pets on your games.
Driver 325 yards you pointed out the irrelevance of animal companions before 7th level because of the cheap tiger. If you point this out as a problem with the hopes to find a solution, the unreliable loyality and food costs for non animal companion creatures can be a suitable solution. If it's just to gloat your findings, congratulations, point taken, and i'll move on.
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So it's settled then, one more forum user satisfied! I'll admit that it was a bit enlightening for me too, thanks for posting.
Oh, just a quick edit to further aid the topic: You can also charm the animal, you can handle him to him allow be charmed. That way you need not to be concerned with handle animals, as long the spell is in effect. Dominate Animal serves the same purpose, only better.
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The benefits of having a AC is pretty well spelled out in the rules. One of those advantages (absent GM fiat) is not that an AC mount is any more tame than another combat trained mount (possibly excluding animal companions with an intelligence of 3 or above).
The rules call out that the AC is both closely bonded and loyal to the PC. Neither of which applies to the random tiger you just bought at the market. That trained tiger is perfectly capable of turning on the handler or group. They are cheap probably because they are just plain dangerous to have around.
If you want something loyal either take an AC or a cohort with the leadership feat.
Agreed. I've got a character with a horse companion (pretty much stuck with it, being a medium-sized cavalier). Horses are actually pretty decent at 4th level, but are pretty pathetic at levels 1 and 2. A store-bought warhorse is better at those levels.
The boon companion feat tax is pretty obnoxious for rangers, too. "Either blow a feat or look forward to your companion dying every other game night." is a bit of a raw deal, mostly due to having to wait until 5th level to get the feat.
Of course there's rolling a 1 on that handle animal check and getting dragged off stage by your neck like a sparkly gazelle...
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Of course there's rolling a 1 on that handle animal check and getting dragged off stage by your neck like a sparkly gazelle...
If there was a 1 in 20 chance every time I fed or played with or just hung around with one of the jaguars, tigers or lions we raised for a local zoo when I was younger, that I'd get maimed or eaten, I wouldn't have lasted the first week, let alone six years doing that sort of thing.
It's certainly not something to be blasé about, but it's no more dangerous than working around heavy machinery, or vehicles, which are just able to cripple and / or kill you.
That said, tigers do have a reputation (unlike lions, who are pretty predictable, in my experience) for 'saving it up' and 'reaching their limit' and mauling someone who mistreated them a year or more ago...
Of course there's rolling a 1 on that handle animal check and getting dragged off stage by your neck like a sparkly gazelle...A "1" is not an auto-fail on skill checks. You can roll a 1 and still succeed on your skill check.
It was a Siegfried and Roy reference.