Do skills change their base ability modifier designation.....

[Jacob Saltband]

Do skills change their base ability modifier designation when a character using a trait, feat, etc. can apply a different ability modifier to that skill?

Just asking opinion on this.

[Humphry B ManWitch]

please elaborate more and show examples.

[Pan]

^^ That.

[williamoak]

I'm assuming this is another way of saying "if a lore warden takes pragmatic activator/clever wordplay, does UMD/diplomacy/etc get on the lore warden's class skill list".

As far as I know, RAW the answer is no. At my own table I would rule yes (for the lore warden example). But I would need more examples of what you mean jacob.

[Humphry B ManWitch]

Lets Discuss

Clever Wordplay:

Your cunning and logic are more than a match for another's confidence and poise.

Benefit: Choose one Charisma-based skill. You attempt checks with that skill using your Intelligence modifier instead of your Charisma modifier.

this feat dose not change the Skill. it just lets you use your intelligence to attempt the skill rather than your charisma.

[Humphry B ManWitch]

Again with this feat

Pragmatic Activator:

While some figure out how to use magical devices with stubborn resolve, your approach is more pragmatic.

Benefit: You may use your Intelligence modifier when making Use Magic Device checks instead of your Charisma modifier.

[Jacob Saltband]

Here are 2 examples where a change of ability modifier is used.

Conversion Inquisition

Charm of Wisdom (Ex): You use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Charisma modifier when making Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.

Pragmatic Activator

You may use your Intelligence modifier when making Use Magic Device checks instead of your Charisma modifier.

These 2 are the ones I know of so far but there might be more. I anyone esle know of more could you post them?

So the question still is: Do skills change their base ability modifier designation when a character using a trait, feat, etc. can apply a different ability modifier to that skill?

[Humphry B ManWitch]

Scholastic (Ex):

Lore wardens gain 2 additional skill ranks each level. These ranks must be spent on Intelligence-based skills. All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens.

This ability replaces the lore warden’s proficiency with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields.

so in this case Clever wordplay & Pragmatic Activator although your able to use intelligence for the skill it has not changed the skill. i.e if your intelligence is lowered to below your charisma you can start using your charisma instead unlike if it was changed to intelligence permanently.

[ArmouredMonk13]

Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

this feat dose not change the Skill. it just lets you use your intelligence to attempt the skill rather than your charisma.

No, it doesn't change the skill. It does however allow you to base it off of your Intelligence instead of your Charisma.

[Humphry B ManWitch]

Conversion Inquisition:

Charm of Wisdom (Ex): You use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Charisma modifier when making Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.

Yes this one actively changes the skill

[Humphry B ManWitch]

so with all these we need to know what the Argument is like are you truing to say that your Lore warden ability works (which it wouldn't in my opinion) or something else?

[Jacob Saltband]

Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

so with all these we need to know what the Argument is like are you truing to say that your Lore warden ability works (which it wouldn't in my opinion) or something else?

For me? I'm just wondering how these changes should be seen. I personally have no stake in what the out come is.

[Pan]

Cagey as ever.

[Humphry B ManWitch]

Also it matters which format you are playing in a home game your DM is going to be the final arbitrator. in PFS I would always assume RAW and got for the least confusion method as table variance can certainly change your characters usefulness

[Talcrion]

This argument seems completely irrelevant. The end result is the same and if you have no kind of tricky gimmick you are pulling who really cares if it changes those three little letters on your skill sheet or not O.o.

Unless I'm missing your point here. I'm assuming you are thinking of trying to combine it with something that ssays like, All int skills get X, and something that is like, you can use your int in place of your cha. Do I get the X to my Cha skills?

I'd say no as it does not say you change it , simply that you can use it that way if you wish.

[Jacob Saltband]

Just to inform thoses who feel every thread I start has some ulterior motive for asking the questions I ask.

I never even heard of some of these traits, feats, etc, before the threads on them were started.

So my 'ulterior' motive for starting this thread was to ask for peoples opinions how these traits etc work.

[Jacob Saltband]

I could see taking pragmatic activator if my character had umd as a class skill but my int was higher then my cha to get that extra point or two if I had nothing else to spend my traits on.

[Harrowed Wizard]

Never even thought about it until now, but lets say I have a character that has Conversion Inquisition, letting use Wisdom instead of Charisma for the three big social skills.

Would a Circlet of Persuasion no long work for those skills for that character since that character is using Wis, not Cha for those skills OR are they still considered Cha skills regardless so the character would still get the +3 bonus to those skills?

[blashimov]

I allow circlet of persuasion to work for bards who versatile performance things, but not inquisitors who use wisdom instead of charisma.

I'd like to see a same cost same effect item that boosts __ score based checks like the circlet, but I have no idea if that'd be balanced. Or, it might be balanced, but at that point almost a gold tax because everyone would buy one for their favorite ability.

[darkwarriorkarg]

Jacob Saltband wrote:

I could see taking pragmatic activator if my character had umd as a class skill but my int was higher then my cha to get that extra point or two if I had nothing else to spend my traits on.

Anything that can drop charisma like Alchemist or wizard...

[Jacob Saltband]

Dot.

[KahnyaGnorc]

The way I see it:

"You use <Score> instead of <Score> for <Skill>."

does not equal

"<Skill> is now a <Score>-based skill for you."

[Ravingdork]

Exactly when and where would that ever become pertinent, KahnyaGnorc?

[Jiggy]

Ravingdork wrote:

Exactly when and where would that ever become pertinent, KahnyaGnorc?

Circlet of persuasion gives a +3 bonus to all "Charisma-based checks".

And I think there was something about the Lore Warden fighter archetype doing something with all "Intelligence-based skills", though I'm too lazy to look it up right now. ;)

[KahnyaGnorc]

Ravingdork wrote:

Exactly when and where would that ever become pertinent, KahnyaGnorc?

Reading the OP and replies, it seemed to be what this thread was asking . . .

[Ravingdork]

So the question is whether or not those abilities make the given skills into Y-base skills rather than X-based skills.

I'd say so, yes. It is a bit ambiguous though.

[Jacob Saltband]

Jiggy wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Exactly when and where would that ever become pertinent, KahnyaGnorc?

Circlet of persuasion gives a +3 bonus to all "Charisma-based checks".

And I think there was something about the Lore Warden fighter archetype doing something with all "Intelligence-based skills", though I'm too lazy to look it up right now. ;)

The Lore Warden get all Int-based skills as class skills.

[Jacob Saltband]

Ravingdork wrote:

So the question is whether or not those abilities make the given skills into Y-base skills rather than X-based skills.

I'd say so, yes. It is a bit ambiguous though.

The ambiguity is the reason for the thread. I believe its the reason for ALOT of threads actually.

[Ron Feldman]

I only see ambiguity in the use of the phrase "Charisma-based" or "Int-based" in descriptions of items, feats, etc. which modify types of skills.

Clarity comes from examining the explanation of the Skills descriptions: "Key Ability: The abbreviation of the ability whose modifier applies to the skill check."

For instance, take the description of "Circlet of Persuasion" and replace the phrase "Charisma-based skills," with "skills for which the Charisma modifier is applied to the skill check."

Now look at the Lore Oracle's Lore Keeper ability: "Instead of encyclopedic knowledge, you learn most of your information through tales, songs, and poems. You may use your Charisma modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier on all Knowledge checks."

For the Lore Oracle, Charisma is "the ability whose modifier applies to the skill check," so the Circlet of Persuasion modifies Knowledge checks for the Lore Oracle.

This phrase "x-based skills" is also used throughout the Ability Scores section of the CRB.

While this short-hand for indicating what type of skill is modified by the Circlet might be concise and its intention seems clear in the Ability Scores section, it is unfortunately coining a new phrase without defining it, and is therefore ambiguous for cases like the Lore Oracle with a Circlet of Persuasion.

If the Ability Scores section of the CRB would specifically be FAQed so as to define a "stat-based skill check" along the lines of the explanation of the Key Ability of skills, the ambiguity would be resolved.