Beguiler conversion for Pathfinder


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Ertw, have you considered drawing up archetypes for other classes to go in the Beguilers of the Inner Sea document?


SylverFox wrote:
Ertw, have you considered drawing up archetypes for other classes to go in the Beguilers of the Inner Sea document?

I hadn't really considered it since the guild is pretty much entirely composed of beguilers. What kinds of archetypes were you thinking about?


ertw wrote:
SylverFox wrote:
Ertw, have you considered drawing up archetypes for other classes to go in the Beguilers of the Inner Sea document?
I hadn't really considered it since the guild is pretty much entirely composed of beguilers. What kinds of archetypes were you thinking about?

The idea came to me when I came across somebody posting an idea that the stygian slayer shouldn't have gotten its spell like and spell completion abilities, but instead should have just been given 4-level casting abilities. It got me thinking about what a slayer would look like if he was under the employ of a beguiler guild and picked up some tricks along the way. Supposedly the guild would have use from time to time to contract outside the guild, these archetypes could represent that (sort of half-members of the guild, the kind of people the guild likes to hire, ect.)


That's actually a very clever fix for the disappointment that is the stygian slayer.


SylverFox wrote:
ertw wrote:
SylverFox wrote:
Ertw, have you considered drawing up archetypes for other classes to go in the Beguilers of the Inner Sea document?
I hadn't really considered it since the guild is pretty much entirely composed of beguilers. What kinds of archetypes were you thinking about?
The idea came to me when I came across somebody posting an idea that the stygian slayer shouldn't have gotten its spell like and spell completion abilities, but instead should have just been given 4-level casting abilities. It got me thinking about what a slayer would look like if he was under the employ of a beguiler guild and picked up some tricks along the way. Supposedly the guild would have use from time to time to contract outside the guild, these archetypes could represent that (sort of half-members of the guild, the kind of people the guild likes to hire, ect.)

I can see what you're getting at, I'll put some thought into the matter. It would likely be a small handful of archetypes, mostly martial classes.


ertw wrote:
SylverFox wrote:
If you're still looking for ideas, you could make a beguiler who focuses on using illusions to provoke and escalate fear effects for the half BAB prestige class.

I'm a little weary as escalating fear builds as they can be incredibly effective at locking down enemies in combat; if it's keyed off a beguiler's illusion spells that could potentially be way too powerful.

It might work well as an archetype/order, but there would have to be significant limits and trade-offs, but I'm just not sure there's enough sacrifice in a 10 level PrC to justify that kind of power.

I came across the Soulless Gaze feat the other day. It's stacking effects might work well as framework for a fear-based beguiler order.


SylverFox wrote:
ertw wrote:
SylverFox wrote:
If you're still looking for ideas, you could make a beguiler who focuses on using illusions to provoke and escalate fear effects for the half BAB prestige class.

I'm a little weary as escalating fear builds as they can be incredibly effective at locking down enemies in combat; if it's keyed off a beguiler's illusion spells that could potentially be way too powerful.

It might work well as an archetype/order, but there would have to be significant limits and trade-offs, but I'm just not sure there's enough sacrifice in a 10 level PrC to justify that kind of power.

I came across the Soulless Gaze feat the other day. It's stacking effects might work well as framework for a fear-based beguiler order.

I can see this working pretty well.

Level 1: Beguiler gains the ability to make demoralize checks through his illusions as a standard action. There are obviously going to have to be limits on this, you don't want an illusory wall to be making intimidate checks. You probably want some kind of range on it too. Also maybe at higher levels the spell level is added as a bonus to the check and the action required for the check might get reduced to a move action.

Level 7: Fear effects begin to advance with further demoralization like the two feat version of soulless gaze.

Level 14: Not sure here. Maybe a spell-like mass castigate once per day?

Level 20: Give the beguiler and his illusions either a fear aura or fear gaze attack.


Maybe the level 14 power could grant the illusions the fear aura? I still wonder if this might work well as a Cha-based archetype. You could switch out the feint class features for reduced action demoralizes. Also maybe the level 1 ability might require that the target of the demoralize must be flat-footed against the beguiler to make it a little less strong?


SylverFox wrote:
Maybe the level 14 power could grant the illusions the fear aura? I still wonder if this might work well as a Cha-based archetype. You could switch out the feint class features for reduced action demoralizes. Also maybe the level 1 ability might require that the target of the demoralize must be flat-footed against the beguiler to make it a little less strong?

Losing feint options cuts into ways to make enemies flat-footed. A fear aura on the illusions at level 14 could definitely work well though.


Those are some really interesting ideas, guys. Give me a little time to see what I can put together for this.


There are still plenty of ways for a beguiler to make an opponent flat-footed, but I do see your point.


I just want to say I love your Beguiler. Are you going to make any additional archetypes?


I noticed that the occult classes were put up on the srd this weekend. Looking them over, the mesmerist has a real beguiler type feel to it. Does that make this conversion obsolete?


UsagiTaicho wrote:
I just want to say I love your Beguiler. Are you going to make any additional archetypes?

I'm really glad you're enjoying the conversion. Aside from the Tomebound Beguiler archetype I posted a while back, I've also got on a few new orders in the works.

Barry Bluejeans wrote:
I noticed that the occult classes were put up on the srd this weekend. Looking them over, the mesmerist has a real beguiler type feel to it. Does that make this conversion obsolete?

I haven't had an opportunity to go over occult adventures myself, so I can't exactly speak to the mesmerist, but I don't think that this conversion will be obsolete unless people stop looking for a direct beguiler conversion.


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Barry Bluejeans wrote:
I noticed that the occult classes were put up on the srd this weekend. Looking them over, the mesmerist has a real beguiler type feel to it. Does that make this conversion obsolete?

While it has some of the same feel, the mesmerist doesn't really get to the heart and soul of the beguiler. It's an outstanding enchanter, but it misses out on a lot of the rogue-like qualities of the beguiler. If that's all you're looking for, you'd do better playing an enchanter wizard rather than either the mesmerist or this beguiler. Honestly, I think Ertw hit the mark way closer than paizo with this one.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Barry Bluejeans wrote:
I noticed that the occult classes were put up on the srd this weekend. Looking them over, the mesmerist has a real beguiler type feel to it. Does that make this conversion obsolete?
While it has some of the same feel, the mesmerist doesn't really get to the heart and soul of the beguiler. It's an outstanding enchanter, but it misses out on a lot of the rogue-like qualities of the beguiler. If that's all you're looking for, you'd do better playing an enchanter wizard rather than either the mesmerist or this beguiler. Honestly, I think Ertw hit the mark way closer than paizo with this one.

To be fair, I don't think Paizo was particularly aiming to duplicate the beguiler so much as to create their own thing. That said, it's somewhat validating that a lot of the choices I've made to the original beguiler have been echoed in their execution of the mesmerist.


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I agree with PS 100%, I'd much rather play this beguiler than a mesmerist.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Barry Bluejeans wrote:
I noticed that the occult classes were put up on the srd this weekend. Looking them over, the mesmerist has a real beguiler type feel to it. Does that make this conversion obsolete?
While it has some of the same feel, the mesmerist doesn't really get to the heart and soul of the beguiler. It's an outstanding enchanter, but it misses out on a lot of the rogue-like qualities of the beguiler. If that's all you're looking for, you'd do better playing an enchanter wizard rather than either the mesmerist or this beguiler. Honestly, I think Ertw hit the mark way closer than paizo with this one.

But still maybe the beguiler could be rewritten as a mesmerist archetype? It could add in some of those "rogue-like qualities" without needed in a whole new class?


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Barry Bluejeans wrote:
But still maybe the beguiler could be rewritten as a mesmerist archetype? It could add in some of those "rogue-like qualities" without needed in a whole new class?

I suppose it could, but you'd likely have to change so much from the mesmerist that it'd essentially be a different class already. If people want to play a mesmerist, more power to them, but I'll keep working on this beguiler conversion for those who want to play a beguiler.


ertw wrote:
I'll keep working on this beguiler conversion for those who want to play a beguiler.

Well said!


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SylverFox wrote:
I agree with PS 100%, I'd much rather play this beguiler than a mesmerist.

Looks like you're right, I asked my beguiler player to convert his character over to mesmerist and after two sessions he's asking to go back to the beguiler.


I was just pointed to your beguiler in another thread and it was exactly what I was looking for in a mage/rogue hybrid. I just wanted to pop into your thread and thank you for all the work you've put into this class. The conversion is absolutely gorgeous!


I'm glad to hear you're enjoying the beguiler. I hope you'll share some of your experiences with it.


Well I can't wait to see the additional archetypes you're working on.


Hey, I know this is a little irregular but Penumbral and ertw you guys have a really great eye for balance and flavor and I was wondering if you could take a look at a few things I've put together recently that haven't got much attention:
The Storm Kindler base class
The Crimsonscale Enforcer racial archetype for Bloodrager
Sorry if this is overstepping, but I'd really appreciate your input.


I'll try to take a look tomorrow and leave you some comments.

Dark Archive

@SylverFox
Heh, I think a PM would have been a better place to ask but PS seems willing.


ertw wrote:

I'm going to be running a game for some friends in the near future and one of my players asked if they could use the Beguiler class from PHB2. I've had a lot of fun with this class in the past and wanted to give it a bit of a flavour boost to bring it more inline with Pathfinder classes. My first draft of the conversion can be found here. After discussing that with a few people I've come up with an updated draft, changes are highlighted in yellow:

Pathfinder Beguiler Conversion

I was hoping to get some comments and criticism on the class. What did I get right? What could be made better?

I just made this account to tell you how awesome this beguiler looks. I was sooooo let down by the mesmirist after getting hype about it being paizo's spiritual successor to the beguiler, but this is perfection. It's an absolutely perfect blending of what made the old beguiler great and what makes pathfinder great! Awesome work, friend!


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Hey guys, sorry I've been away for a while. Life's been busy and haven't had much time to put pen to paper on anything beguiler related, but fear not because I'm still always mulling over new ideas in my head.

@ChattarBox I'm glad you're enjoying the conversion. Please feel free to post some of your experiences with it after you've played a bit!

@SylverFox I don't mind your asking for help, but as JonathonWilder pointed out PMs would probably be more appropriate in the future. Sadly I don't have much time to look over your stuff, but it looks like PS gave you some good suggestions.

@UsagiTaicho Fear not, I'm still working on refining the new order and PrC stuff down to a distilled idea, here's a sneak peak at what I've got planned:

New order and PrC spoilers:

Order of the Counterfeit Blood

The order of the counterfeit blood is my take on JonathanWilder's suggestion of a noble beguiler. A counterfeit blood beguiler begins play with an aristocratic alter-ego (whether this person is a work of fiction, or a stolen identity is up to the player). As she progresses her ability to blend into this noble persona becomes more and more powerful, eventually making the disguise undetectable and unassailable even through magical means.

Order of the Petrified Mind

The order of the petrified mind is based on SylverFox's suggestion of a fear based beguiler. The idea is to follow the framework Penumbral Shadow put together for a beguiler who can demoralize at range through her illusions.

Whispering Initiate

The whispering initiate is the 1/2 BAB PrC that Penumbral Shadow asked for. These beguilers work under the sole purview of their local guild's spymistress (known in every local guildhall only as the Whispering Sister). They choose to focus solely on their arcane skills rather than also developing their martial abilities; adding a stable of divination and abjuration spells to their spell lists. As they level up, they gain the ability to sense when they are being spied upon by divination magic, eventually learning how to discern where and whom is doing the scrying. Along the way they also gain the ability to fool those that would spy on them with powerful illusions focused directly on the scrying sensor.


ertw wrote:

Order of the Counterfeit Blood

There is no word to adequately describe my excitement.


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Order of the Counterfeit Blood:

Order of the Counterfeit Blood:

Nobility (as well as the wealth that comes with name and title) has always been an area of keen interest for beguiler guilds across Golarion, especially in aristocratic havens such as Cheliax or Taldor. Those beguilers that are specially trained to infiltrate these circles make up this highly specialized order. Counterfeit blood beguilers are unparalleled experts in deception, disguise, and forgery; using their arcaine mastery to suppliment their extraordinary skills.

Preferred Alignments: Any.

Class Skills: Knowledge (nobility), and Linguistics

Order Spell List: 1st-Undetectable Alignment, 2nd-Grace (APG), 3rd-Chameleon Stride (APG), 4th-Modify Memory, 5th-Spell Resistance, 6th-Brilliant Inspiration (APG), 7th-Vision, 8th-Euphoric Tranquility (APG), 9th-Shapechange.

Order Powers: Using mastery over both mundane and arcane trickery, a counterfeit blood beguiler is one of the most potent infiltrators on the face of Golarion.

Alter Ego (Ex): At 1st level, a counterfeit blood beguiler gains the ability to fabricate an aristocratic alter ego comprised of both a mundane disguise and forged documents attesting to her fabricated identity. This alter ego can be a fictional identity constructed by the beguiler, or can be a facimile of a real noble (although she must have significant familiarity with the real noble on which her alter ego is based). She begins play with an existing alter ego, as well as a specialized set of tools which allow her to craft a new alter ego with 1 week of work and 200 gp of material components, after which time this new alter ego replaces the former.

A beguiler adds 1/2 her level to Bluff, Disguise, and Linguistics checks made to maintain her identity. This includes such events as assuaging the suspicions of a person questioning her identity, deceiving a person familiar with the real noble her alter ego is imitating, or ensuring the inscrutability of forged documents.

Polymorphic Facade (Su): At 7th level, a beguiler can magically assume the appearance of her alter ego. She gains a +10 competence bonus on Disguise checks made to appear identical to a real noble. This ability functions as alter self, except that the beguiler does not adjust her ability scores and can remain in this form indefinitely. The beguiler is now able to craft a new alter ego with 1 day of work and 100 gp of material components.

Once per day, the beguiler also gains the ability to add the glammered special ability to her armour for 1 hour per level, or to her weapon for 10 minutes per level. At 10th level, and every three levels thereafter, she gains an aditional daily use of this ability.

Resistant Facade (Su): At 13th level, a beguiler gains exceptional resistance to divination and abjuration magic designed to penetrate her disguise. If the beguiler is subject to an effect which would dispell or see through her polymorphic facade (eg. banish seeming or true seeing), she is able to use any spell resistance she possesses to prevent the effect from piercing her disguise. Furthermore, if the spell penetrates her spell resistance, she can still exclude herself from the effect by making a Will saving throw (using her Intelligence modifier instead of her Wisdom modifier) even if the spell would not typically permit a saving throw.

At 15th level, the beguiler can extend this protection to any spell of the glamer or polymorph school she casts; however the beguiler still uses her own spell resistance, Will save and Intelligence modifier for the saving throw on behalf of objects or other creatures she has cast upon.

At 19th level, the beguiler's polymorphic facade becomes immune to such spells.

Paragon's Aspect (Su): At 20th level a counterfeit blood beguiler's alter ego becomes indescernable from her own identity. A magical aura surrounds her at all times, subtly altering the thoughts of any individual within 75 feet. This aura functions as modify memory, implanting a vague notion that they have heard of a beguiler's alter ego before (if she is disguised in a fictional identity) or that the beguiler's alter ego was travelling through this area (if she is impersonating a real noble). Any intelligent creature within this aura which fails on a Will save (DC 20 + the beguiler's Intelligence modifier) is affected by this aura and suffers a -5 penalty on any attempt to detect the beguiler's lies, disguise, or forgeries. Creatures which succeed on this saving throw are not made aware that they were potentially subject to a magical effect, but cannot be affected by this aura again for 1 day. The beguiler is now able to craft a new alter ego with 1 hour of work and does not require any costly material components.


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This is easily the most polished product I've seen for a homebrew or semi-homebrew class. I'd rank it higher than most of the official Paizo classes, especially some of the more recent ones that could probably have used another few editing passes, so I just wanted to say: well done.

I've mostly just skimmed through the thread, but I've seen a few mentions of a Beguilers of the Inner Sea document with additional Guilds and a few PrCs designed for Beguilers. Is that compiled anywhere online? I haven't been able to find a copy, although it's certainly possible I'm just being blind.


RPZip wrote:
This is easily the most polished product I've seen for a homebrew or semi-homebrew class. I'd rank it higher than most of the official Paizo classes, especially some of the more recent ones that could probably have used another few editing passes, so I just wanted to say: well done.

Thank you so much for your kind words. It means a lot to hear that people are enjoying something I've put so much work into.

RPZip wrote:
I've mostly just skimmed through the thread, but I've seen a few mentions of a Beguilers of the Inner Sea document with additional Guilds and a few PrCs designed for Beguilers. Is that compiled anywhere online? I haven't been able to find a copy, although it's certainly possible I'm just being blind.

The Beguilers of the Inner Sea document can be found at bit.ly/innerseabeguilers, though it hasn't been updated since May. I haven't had much time to work on BotIS over the past months, but I've posted a few additions to that PDF in this thread: the tomebound beguiler archetype and the counterfeit blood order. I have some other things in the works, but nothing ready to be posted yet.


Wow! The counterfeit blood is really cool. I'm going to be seeing my gaming group this evening so I'll see if anybody has any thoughts/comments and get back to you.


Sorry Mark hasn't been able to get back to you, it's our end of term crush at school. He's asked me to pass our comments along about the counterfeit blood beguiler. We all loved the idea and flavor of the order, very cool albeit a little situational.

Alter ego: Why is this limited to nobility? I could definitely see situations where it might be more appropriate to infiltrate by pretending to be a servant/cook/etc.

Polymorphic facade: Really love this ability. The real centerpiece of the order.

Resistant facade: I really like the idea behind this, but the language feels a bit clunky. Phrases like "see through her polymorphic facade" seem like they leave a lot of room for interpretation. Immunity to trueseeing is pretty powerful, but at level 19 I think it works well.

Paragon's aspect: Another really cool power. We really appreciated the penalty to those that fail their save in the aura instead of the typical luck bonus.

Overall it's really great stuff and with those few tweaks we think it'd be an awesome addition to your beguiler.


Hey I just found your work here through a link on EN World and wanted to say you've put together a gorgeous conversion.
One question I do have is why is the charlatan's cant so limited? In the end it's the DM who hands out any information gathered by the cant, so it wouldn't be any difference balance-wise to make it more useful (even if it still had a limited vocabulary, but more than "I want to talk" and "ok" or "no"). It seems like this might be a vestige of an earlier version where you were a lot more prescriptive about the guild as a whole (as had been mentioned back on page 2: post #56). I wouldn't see any big issues with even making it a class specific language like druidic.


Awesome! Nice work on the Counterfeit Blood. It's got a really flavorful name (which I love!) and the Paragon's Aspect ability is amazing!


LT Silverstar wrote:

Sorry Mark hasn't been able to get back to you, it's our end of term crush at school. He's asked me to pass our comments along about the counterfeit blood beguiler. We all loved the idea and flavor of the order, very cool albeit a little situational.

Alter ego: Why is this limited to nobility? I could definitely see situations where it might be more appropriate to infiltrate by pretending to be a servant/cook/etc.

Polymorphic facade: Really love this ability. The real centerpiece of the order.

Resistant facade: I really like the idea behind this, but the language feels a bit clunky. Phrases like "see through her polymorphic facade" seem like they leave a lot of room for interpretation. Immunity to trueseeing is pretty powerful, but at level 19 I think it works well.

Paragon's aspect: Another really cool power. We really appreciated the penalty to those that fail their save in the aura instead of the typical luck bonus.

Overall it's really great stuff and with those few tweaks we think it'd be an awesome addition to your beguiler.

Thanks for your thoughts, I'll take a look at what needs tweaking and see what changes I could make.

King Lobster wrote:

Hey I just found your work here through a link on EN World and wanted to say you've put together a gorgeous conversion.

One question I do have is why is the charlatan's cant so limited? In the end it's the DM who hands out any information gathered by the cant, so it wouldn't be any difference balance-wise to make it more useful (even if it still had a limited vocabulary, but more than "I want to talk" and "ok" or "no"). It seems like this might be a vestige of an earlier version where you were a lot more prescriptive about the guild as a whole (as had been mentioned back on page 2: post #56). I wouldn't see any big issues with even making it a class specific language like druidic.

Thanks for your kind words about the conversion. I haven't looked at the charlatan's cant for quite some time, but I think the way it was written originally was intended to keep it from being too much of a power bump. I can definitely take a look at it again to see if it could use an update.

UsagiTaicho wrote:
Awesome! Nice work on the Counterfeit Blood. It's got a really flavorful name (which I love!) and the Paragon's Aspect ability is amazing!

I'm really glad you enjoyed it! This was a pretty fun order to put together and when I came up with the name I knew I had a winner.


Thanks for posting that Luke. I'd just like to add that while I really love the idea you've got going for the counterfeit blood beguiler, but a lot of the language seems less precise than your usual standard. I feel like maybe the divergence between the "true noble" and "imaginary noble" makes the language really rough. Maybe it could work if you only had imaginary characters as potential alter egos?

King Lobster wrote:

Hey I just found your work here through a link on EN World and wanted to say you've put together a gorgeous conversion.

One question I do have is why is the charlatan's cant so limited? In the end it's the DM who hands out any information gathered by the cant, so it wouldn't be any difference balance-wise to make it more useful (even if it still had a limited vocabulary, but more than "I want to talk" and "ok" or "no"). It seems like this might be a vestige of an earlier version where you were a lot more prescriptive about the guild as a whole (as had been mentioned back on page 2: post #56). I wouldn't see any big issues with even making it a class specific language like druidic.

That's pretty much how we've been running the cant at our tables anyways, so I feel like this is a reasonable change.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:

Thanks for posting that Luke. I'd just like to add that while I really love the idea you've got going for the counterfeit blood beguiler, but a lot of the language seems less precise than your usual standard. I feel like maybe the divergence between the "true noble" and "imaginary noble" makes the language really rough. Maybe it could work if you only had imaginary characters as potential alter egos?

King Lobster wrote:

Hey I just found your work here through a link on EN World and wanted to say you've put together a gorgeous conversion.

One question I do have is why is the charlatan's cant so limited? In the end it's the DM who hands out any information gathered by the cant, so it wouldn't be any difference balance-wise to make it more useful (even if it still had a limited vocabulary, but more than "I want to talk" and "ok" or "no"). It seems like this might be a vestige of an earlier version where you were a lot more prescriptive about the guild as a whole (as had been mentioned back on page 2: post #56). I wouldn't see any big issues with even making it a class specific language like druidic.
That's pretty much how we've been running the cant at our tables anyways, so I feel like this is a reasonable change.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought like that. I look forward to seeing what your new take on it ertw.


Had a little time this weekend and tried to clean up the counterfeit blood beguiler a little bit. Unfortunately the game jargon isn't really well suited to some of the ideas I've got, so there's still a fair deal left to reasonable interpretation.

Order of the Counterfeit Blood:

Alter Ego (Ex): At 1st level, a counterfeit blood beguiler gains the ability to fabricate an alter ego comprised of both a mundane disguise and forged documents attesting to her fabricated identity; while typically aristocratic in nature, the beguiler can produce an alter ego to fit into any social situation. She begins play with an existing alter ego, as well as a specialized set of tools which allow her to craft a new alter ego with 1 week of work and 200 gp of material components, after which time this new alter ego replaces the former.

A beguiler adds 1/2 her level to Bluff, Disguise, and Linguistics checks made to maintain her identity (minimum +1).

Polymorphic Facade (Su): At 7th level, a beguiler can magically assume the appearance of her alter ego. She gains a +10 competence bonus on Disguise checks made to appear identical to a real noble. This ability functions as alter self, except that the beguiler does not adjust her ability scores and can remain in this form indefinitely. The beguiler is now able to craft a new alter ego with 1 day of work and 100 gp of material components.

Once per day, the beguiler also gains the ability to add the glammered special ability to her armour for 1 hour per level, or to her weapon for 10 minutes per level. At 10th level, and every three levels thereafter, she gains an aditional daily use of this ability.

Dauntless Deception (Su): At 13th level, a beguiler gains exceptional resistance to divination and abjuration magic designed to see through or dispell her magical disguise (eg. banish seeming or true seeing). If the beguiler is subject to a spell from these schools (or any effect that functions as a spell from these schools) she is able to use any spell resistance she possesses to prevent the spell from affecting her polymorphic facade, even if the spell normally bypasses spell resistance. Furthermore, even if the spell penetrates her spell resistance, she can still exclude herself from the effect by making a Will saving throw (using her Intelligence modifier instead of her Wisdom modifier) even if the spell would not typically permit a saving throw.

At 15th level, the beguiler can extend this protection to any spell of the glamer or polymorph subschool she casts; however the beguiler still uses her own spell resistance and saving throw on behalf of objects or other creatures she has cast upon.

At 19th level, the beguiler's polymorphic facade becomes immune to spells from the divination and abjuration schools.

Paragon's Aspect (Su): At 20th level a counterfeit blood beguiler's alter ego becomes indescernable from her own identity. A magical aura surrounds her at all times, subtly altering the thoughts of any individual within 75 feet. This aura functions as modify memory, implanting a vague notion of familiarity with the beguiler's alter ego. Any intelligent creature within this aura which fails on a Will save (DC 20 + the beguiler's Intelligence modifier) is affected by this aura and suffers a -5 penalty on any attempt to detect the beguiler's lies, disguise, or forgeries. Creatures which succeed on this saving throw are not made aware that they were potentially subject to a magical effect, but cannot be affected by this aura again for 1 day. The beguiler is now able to craft a new alter ego with 1 hour of work and does not require any costly material components.


The counterfeit blood beguiler looks absolutely perfect! Getting excited to see the petrified mind too!


SylverFox wrote:
The counterfeit blood beguiler looks absolutely perfect! Getting excited to see the petrified mind too!

Glad you like it!

I've also just updated the main conversion document (bit.ly/pathfinderbeguiler) with the new, less restricted Charlatan's Cant, as well as new spells on the spell list from Occult Adventures.


ertw wrote:
Had a little time this weekend and tried to clean up the counterfeit blood beguiler a little bit. Unfortunately the game jargon isn't really well suited to some of the ideas I've got, so there's still a fair deal left to reasonable interpretation.

I think the changes you've made have made it a lot cleaner now. Great work!


I've been following this conversion for a while now (first saw it on reddit then followed the conversation here), but haven't had a chance to play with it yet. The other day I was discussing it with a friend and we both agreed that the ghastly claw order seems to have lost its focus.

I remember when I first saw this there were mountains of complaints that the ghastly claw was too much of a stand out, that the others all kind of faded into the background when placed beside it. Over that time each of the other orders have been polished, but the ghastly claw seems to have been left behind. Its original role as a combat-focused beguiler has been stepped all over by the baleful shadow. While I see you kind of meant to have ghastly claw be more melee focused while the baleful shadow is more magic focused, key abilities like spellkill put both back into direct contention.

I think ghastly claw needs a bit of a rethink, not much, but something other than spellkill for the third tier order power. For example you could go more in the necromancy direction by giving them automatic threnodic spell for all their casting, or more combat focused by letting them use their beguiler level as BAB a few times per day. I'm not sure, but something really needs to help this really cool order.


I'm not so sure that the ghastly claw needs a power boost. Yes the baleful shadow and ghastly claw are both more combat centric orders, but BS is more focused towards doing damage to larger groups while the GC is about dealing massive damage to one target.


I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Penumbral Shadow, the balance of the ghastly claw beguilers was a pretty tricky thing; I wouldn't want to give it more power at the risk of upsetting this balance.


ertw wrote:
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Penumbral Shadow, the balance of the ghastly claw beguilers was a pretty tricky thing; I wouldn't want to give it more power at the risk of upsetting this balance.

I'm not looking for more power, just different. I guess what I meant to say is that spellkill seems out of place in the current ghastly claw order because of the overlap of "magical combat beguiler" from the new baleful shadow. I really feel like the ghastly claw would benefit from a more melee/martial option than spellkill. It would definitely contribute to giving them a more unique story.


CuttDeep wrote:
ertw wrote:
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Penumbral Shadow, the balance of the ghastly claw beguilers was a pretty tricky thing; I wouldn't want to give it more power at the risk of upsetting this balance.
I'm not looking for more power, just different. I guess what I meant to say is that spellkill seems out of place in the current ghastly claw order because of the overlap of "magical combat beguiler" from the new baleful shadow. I really feel like the ghastly claw would benefit from a more melee/martial option than spellkill. It would definitely contribute to giving them a more unique story.

The beguiler's spellcasting really makes any combat oriented beguiler a "magical combat beguiler" though.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
CuttDeep wrote:
ertw wrote:
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Penumbral Shadow, the balance of the ghastly claw beguilers was a pretty tricky thing; I wouldn't want to give it more power at the risk of upsetting this balance.
I'm not looking for more power, just different. I guess what I meant to say is that spellkill seems out of place in the current ghastly claw order because of the overlap of "magical combat beguiler" from the new baleful shadow. I really feel like the ghastly claw would benefit from a more melee/martial option than spellkill. It would definitely contribute to giving them a more unique story.
The beguiler's spellcasting really makes any combat oriented beguiler a "magical combat beguiler" though.

I guess the idea I have in my head is that the ghastly claw beguiler would use his spells for infiltration and then use his combat skills and paralyzing touch to take down his opponents while the baleful shadow beguiler is more along the lines of slinging shadow evocations for fun and profit.

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