I can't help but wonder though if they end up giving undo advantage to races with the +1/2 use for 3+int/day powers favored class bonus. I wonder if it might be better to give the beguiler a "stygian pool" instead of uses per day of stygian step and have those powers draw off of that.The only race that currently has that favoured class bonus is the Vishkanya who aren't the most optimized choice for orders based around spellcasting like the baleful shadow; IMHO they are a much better fit mechanically (as well as fluff-wise) as ghastly claw or wandering heart beguilers.
I guess saves are king for the baleful shadow and anything that cuts into Int will be pretty non-optimized. Fair enough.
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Mark pointed me back here telling me you've made some changes to the conversion. While I'm sad you've departed from the old standby of the class knowing all its spells, I can definitely understand your reasoning for doing so. The new spell list looks really neat and I'd still look forward to seeing what kind of spells known my players would build up. One thing I would beg of you is to add mage hand to the spell list. From the beginning this class was one that cried out to be paired with the arcane trickster PrC and the only thing holding them back is that one spell not being on their list. Before this expanded spell list, I could see the reasoning for keeping mage hand off the list, but now it seems like it would be a simple add that would be well within the themes of the class.
I absolutely adore the new concept for the baleful shadow order. The order powers from old version really did seem like it wasn't anywhere near as unique as the other groups. That said, I think there are some things that could stand to be cleaned up a little and clarified:
- Stygian step is really interesting. I think you definitely hit on a good point about the lighting conditions to prevent multiclassing shenanigans. Honestly you could drop this limitation at 5th level (the second time there's no BAB bump) and it'd hold off the martial dips. However, when I first read the fluff sentence I had a bit of a different picture for the idea than the crunch bore out. What I had in mind was more akin to being under the protection of a blink spell for the duration of their move action. This provides similar protections against AOOs while also letting them blink through walls and such. Maybe at 9th level you could let them spend two uses to become incorporeal for that move action. You also don't really need the text about not granting new forms of movement as it's only ethereal creatures that gain the "any direction glide" movement, not blinking nor incorporeal creatures.
- As I had suggested earlier, the arcane trickster really goes well with this order. I would be nice if wraith strike counted as a sneak attack for the purposes of qualifying for feats and PrCs so you could theoretically build a beguiler 10/arcane trickster 10 without having to waste 3 levels multiclassing in rogue to qualify.
- I like both the shadow tricks and peerless tricks. Very cool ways to customize your stygian step. One thing I'd like some more clarification on is whether or not stygian jump qualifies a beguiler to take the dimenional agility feat chain. If not it seems like it has relatively little worth, particularly since you can get it for free with dimensional step; if so it would have significant worth and might even be worthwhile to combine with dimensional step.
- I'd definitely back a change to the aspect of mastery to treat concealment and perception as if her space were one step darker.
The quality of your work continues to astound me and I must say it has been a pleasure to help you craft this class.
Honestly, I don't see the value in taking levels in arcane trickster. Your BAB craps out with the slow progression and you miss out on the high level beguiler powers. In return for giving up superb protections offered by the aspect of mastery and the ability for cloaked casting to cut through SR you end up with what? Sneak attack damage on area of effect spells through shadow evocation (typically a will save on top of a reflex save; not worth it to me since reflex saves are the most common good saves in the game). Sure 7d6 extra damage to anybody in the fireball's area is exciting, but I'd rather be doing 5d6 extra damage on an intensified scorching ray that cuts through spell resistance.
I really feel like PrCs are a trap for this class, the endgame is just too tempting and anything that doesn't grant full casting really slows the class down. With the new stygian step this class is already verging on what everybody wants to do with their shadowdancer, it can out death attack an assassin (although what can't?), and wraith strike combined with cloaked casting beats the arcane trickster/beguiler mix out of the water IMHO. If you want to run an arcane trickster you can still do the very common build: wizard (teleportation sub-school) 3 + 2 classes that grant sneak attack dice (the new brawler archetype snakebite striker is great for this since it has full BAB) + arcane trickster 10 + wizard X; with the most powerful 9th level casting in the game, that build would still be able to blow a fully specced out beguiler out of the water.
I really feel like PrCs are a trap for this class, the endgame is just too temptingTo be fair, isn't that true for most classes in pathfinder?
Most, but not all. Look at the wizard in my build example. What does he lose by not taking those 12 levels of wizard? Well if he takes the magical knack trait he doesn't lose any CL. He loses 1 7th level, 1 8th level and 2 9th level spells per day (which is definitely somewhat painful). He misses out of 3 bonus feats. He doesn't lose any of his school power evolutions (although he does lose 360 feet/day teleport from dimensional steps and 30 feet/use from shift). He also ends up with a higher BAB as well as decent weapon/armor proficiencies and potentially useful extraordinary abilities from multiclassing. On the whole I'd call that a win. The reason the wizard can do this is because he doesn't really have a capstone to work towards, while the beguiler essentially has two. I stand by my statement: I'd only want to multiclass with this beguiler if I was taking a dip into it with another build.
Honestly, I don't see the value in taking levels in arcane trickster. Your BAB craps out with the slow progression and you miss out on the high level beguiler powers. In return for giving up superb protections offered by the aspect of mastery and the ability for cloaked casting to cut through SR you end up with what? Sneak attack damage on area of effect spells through shadow evocation (typically a will save on top of a reflex save; not worth it to me since reflex saves are the most common good saves in the game). Sure 7d6 extra damage to anybody in the fireball's area is exciting, but I'd rather be doing 5d6 extra damage on an intensified scorching ray that cuts through spell resistance.
I really feel like PrCs are a trap for this class, the endgame is just too tempting and anything that doesn't grant full casting really slows the class down. With the new stygian step this class is already verging on what everybody wants to do with their shadowdancer, it can out death attack an assassin (although what can't?), and wraith strike combined with cloaked casting beats the arcane trickster/beguiler mix out of the water IMHO. If you want to run an arcane trickster you can still do the very common build: wizard (teleportation sub-school) 3 + 2 classes that grant sneak attack dice (the new brawler archetype snakebite striker is great for this since it has full BAB) + arcane trickster 10 + wizard X; with the most powerful 9th level casting in the game, that build would still be able to blow a fully specced out beguiler out of the water.
While it's definitely not an optimized build, it can be a useful setup for roleplaying. In fact, I could see this beguiler working for most of the PrCs it would qualify for. It's not necessarily going to be the strongest build, but it can add even more fun flavor to an already pretty interesting class.
Just had a thought, does the beguiler keep gaining savvy preparation spell slots if she takes levels in a PrC that grants additional spellcasting levels? With a cleric's domain spells it makes sense to continue the progression, since everything is granted at 1st level, but with the description of this ability it seems dependent on beguiler class levels. Also would those PrC levels grant access to second prepared slots?
I'd recommend giving them both slots. Given their inclusion in the spells known by level table I'd say they're fully a part of the beguiler's spellcasting.
I think the ex-beguiler section might use a bit of a rewrite since it was framed around the old, all-in spell list system.
I still think the ex-beguiler section could clarify what happens with order spells when a beguiler leaves an order and when he gains a new order. I'm really digging the blinkblade, that sounds like a really badass weapon. Any particular reason behind adding the sawtooth saber to the weapon proficiency list? It seems an oddly martial option given their other proficiencies (beguilers don't even get longswords which the sawtooth saber is built on).
I still think the ex-beguiler section could clarify what happens with order spells when a beguiler leaves an order and when he gains a new order.It works much like any other beguiler spell, spells that are known remain even without order or guild, but they cannot be learned until a new order accepts the beguiler.
It still seems like that could warrant a mention in the text. Just a sentence that says something like "upon leaving an order, all order spells the beguiler does not already know are permenantly removed from the beguiler's spell list". IMHO it bears clarification since there aren't really any other mechanics in the game that remove spells from spell lists like that.
Has anybody played this class at table? Can anybody give me a sense of where the power level of it is? I like the look of the class, but I'm worried it might be a bit OP to get past my DM. Also is the link in the October 27th post the most recent version of the class?
Anybody?
thx
Any word from them, I'm anxious to hear their experiences?
Oh cool, I guess misread your first post. Hopefully the discussion in this thread will be enough to convince my DM. If she does say yes, where on Golarion do you think would be a good place for a guild to be based?
That would be super helpful
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I've been playing the newest version of the baleful shadow order in one game and I have a player playing a wandering heart beguiler in another game I DM. I was part of some extensive play testing with LT Silverstar as well, so I'm fairly familiar with the way the class plays at the table. In my opinion I'd say the class is as balanced as any other full caster class. Most of the reasons for this are found earlier in this thread, but I'll provide some examples of how things can play out with this beguiler.
In a one-on-one battle, if you put any of the beguilers up against a wizard, cleric or sorcerer the beguiler is likely to lose. As an example, during our play testing we took a group of six level twenty beguilers on a mission to assassinate a monarch while he sat in judgement of our employer and walk out with all seven heads still attached to our necks. We did a fairly good job of sneaking past the mundane guards and traps laid out, we even managed to get a sniper through security check point (think airport security with detect magic instead of x-rays) with the butcher's crook crossbow. We managed to kill the king secretly, but our attempts to escape (by magically disguising ourselves to appear to be said king) were foiled by trueseeing. We didn't know a level 20 wizard had been manipulating the king and she immediately sent the entire castle's guard against us. Attempts to enchant soldiers to our cause were dispelled and time stop allowed the wizard to self-buff and summon additional assistance. Long story short, six players were locked down by a single well-played wizard.
One-on-one match-ups against martial characters tend to go in the beguiler's favor. There are a decent number of options in the enchantment/illusion bag to turn martials against one another or just befuddle them while you escape. I didn't quite expect the wandering heart beguiler to be a very combat proficient order, but with my player I've found that I have to watch him carefully or else he could breeze through my encounters. He's found an incredible variety of ways to circumvent my plans and short-cut tasks using his enchantment skills, but as a DM I have a decent number of tricks to counteract his shenanigans.
On the whole I'd say this conversion fits in well with the continuum of balance that the pathfinder system offers, falling a little below the sorcerer in terms of overall power.
Thanks so much I'll pass that info along to my DM.
Just heard back from my DM and she's ok'd me to use this! I'm excited to try out the arcane hand order. She had a few ideas for how to fit the guild into our current game, so we'll work off of that. Thanks for all your hard work ertw.
Glad to hear that you got the go-ahead to use the beguiler and hope you have fun with it. Sorry I haven't been able to get the guild description out, I've been traveling for most of the holiday and I'm still working on it.
That's cool. I'd still like to see your ideas when you're done with them.
I'll definitely post it when I finish.
Awesome! :D
That's a really interesting list, can't wait to see some of these fleshed out. Particularly interested in how the aspis consorts work and why there are two guilds in cheliax and the shackles. Also I love anything Razmir in Golarion. I'm surprised to see so many baleful shadow guilds and so few arcane hand guilds. I had thought arcane hand would have been the most common.
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I apologize for not saying anything before, but I do like this conversion a lot and plan on using the Beguiler of the Wandering Heart.
I admit, I do wish there was an Order for a merchant style Beguiler with or one with a connection to the nobility or elite of a city.
Still working on this, but haven't been able to make much headway as of late (life is busy, getting ready for new baby to arrive any day now).
Hey, congratulations! When is the baby due?
Hey, congratulations! When is the baby due?Thanks! She was due this past Monday, but first babies are often a little late so we're stuck playing the waiting game.
Awesome, good luck!
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I just found this thread from the other one higher up on this boards. I just wanted to say this is a really great looking conversion. I'm excited to use it for a few NPC in my upcoming campaign.
Can't wait to go over that tonight when I get home. Looks really cool.
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I just found this myself and I'm very excited to trying this conversion out. I'm going to point my DM to this thread and propose a character to him sometime soon.
Thanks for all the work you put into this class! I'll update on any forthcoming progress after the game starts. :)
Most, but not all. Look at the wizard in my build example. What does he lose by not taking those 12 levels of wizard? Well if he takes the magical knack trait he doesn't lose any CL. He loses 1 7th level, 1 8th level and 2 9th level spells per day (which is definitely somewhat painful). He misses out of 3 bonus feats. He doesn't lose any of his school power evolutions (although he does lose 360 feet/day teleport from dimensional steps and 30 feet/use from shift). He also ends up with a higher BAB as well as decent weapon/armor proficiencies and potentially useful extraordinary abilities from multiclassing. On the whole I'd call that a win. The reason the wizard can do this is because he doesn't really have a capstone to work towards, while the beguiler essentially has two. I stand by my statement: I'd only want to multiclass with this beguiler if I was taking a dip into it with another build.I really feel like PrCs are a trap for this class, the endgame is just too temptingTo be fair, isn't that true for most classes in pathfinder?
Being an entire level of spells behind is a really big deal for that wizard. Absolutely not worth anything he has gained. Looking at it from the 20th level perspective is extremely misleading because it assumes he just has less spells, when actually he is behind on spells.
I mean, it's not awful..... but it's not a win by any measure.
Most, but not all. Look at the wizard in my build example. What does he lose by not taking those 12 levels of wizard? Well if he takes the magical knack trait he doesn't lose any CL. He loses 1 7th level, 1 8th level and 2 9th level spells per day (which is definitely somewhat painful). He misses out of 3 bonus feats. He doesn't lose any of his school power evolutions (although he does lose 360 feet/day teleport from dimensional steps and 30 feet/use from shift). He also ends up with a higher BAB as well as decent weapon/armor proficiencies and potentially useful extraordinary abilities from multiclassing. On the whole I'd call that a win. The reason the wizard can do this is because he doesn't really have a capstone to work towards, while the beguiler essentially has two. I stand by my statement: I'd only want to multiclass with this beguiler if I was taking a dip into it with another build.I really feel like PrCs are a trap for this class, the endgame is just too temptingTo be fair, isn't that true for most classes in pathfinder?Being an entire level of spells behind is a really big deal for that wizard. Absolutely not worth anything he has gained. Looking at it from the 20th level perspective is extremely misleading because it assumes he just has less spells, when actually he is behind on spells.
I mean, it's not awful..... but it's not a win by any measure.
Okay, that's a fair point about the 20th level perspective, but I still think the wizard is better off for going the prestige class route than the beguiler.
For most wizards being behind a level of spells is a big deal, but an arcane trickster is likely built around getting sneak attack to go off. That means a good source of denying your opponent his dex until you can cast a spell (either the 1st level teleportation school power or the 1st level spell vanish will do the trick) and a weaponlike spell to set it off. The most common ones of these are shocking grasp and snowball (both 1st level spells which can be intensified before you even dip out of wizard) or scorching ray (2nd level). All of these tools are there before you start stalling in terms of levels. Most higher level damage spells commonly used for blasting (eg. fireball) are area effect or don't give an attack roll, so they can't trigger a sneak attack. Yes the wizard is delayed on his utility spells to help his survivability, but he gets most of the tools he needs for his one trick pony early enough to not matter. The beguiler on the other hand doesn't get the only spell he can use for arcane trickster sneak attacks (shadow evocation) until 10th level, has a worse sneak attack progression throughout the build, and gives up his two most powerful order powers (including the level 20 capstone).
Sure the wizard won't be the most effective character in the game, but he definitely ends up better off than the beguiler in this case.
Just to keep you guys updated, I've been working on the formatted version of the Beguilers of the Inner Sea Region document. I've added two prestige classes specifically for Golarion's beguilers, still working on some feats, equipment, and magic items to with them. You can find that at: bit.ly/innerseabeguilers.
This is really awesome work, ertw! I'm excited to see the rest of it.
Can't wait to go over that tonight when I get home. Looks really cool.
So here are my impressions:
- The guilds themselves are fantastic, tons of options and variations to fit beguilers of all stripes. You really do have a way with flavor that is incredibly compelling.
- I think the beguiling discipline ability of the hellknight deceiver is really interesting, finally something that might make me reconsider my opinions about PrCs for beguilers. The focus on two-bladed swords is interesting, fitting with the idea of the hellknight orders' favored weapons, and these abilities finally might actually make the two-bladed sword work (I never understood why they'd deny finesse to a weapon built to be used with a high dex combat form like TWF). The only thing that seems kind of out of place is armored mage, a beguiler in medium armor seems uncharacteristic.
- I haven't quite gotten a feel for the stygian skirmisher. I see what you're trying to do, trading magic for BAB, but I'm just not sure how well it fits. Baleful shadow and ghastly claw beguilers seem like prime candidates for this PrC, but baleful shadow gets denied the defining ability for the class. Still it's a very interesting mesh of the current and previous versions of baleful shadow. The combat schools are a really cool idea, but contingency blade seems like an odd choice for a high level ability since it steps away from the specialization created at prior levels of the class.
Anyways, I'm looking forward to seeing what else you've got in store for us. Great work!