Beguiler conversion for Pathfinder


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ertw wrote:
I'm glad you're enjoying my work. I hadn't thought about converting the warmage and dread necromancer, but I may give it a shot when this conversion is put to bed.

You've got a good framework to build these other two classes on with this beguiler conversion. Surprise and cloaked casting get replaced with two synergistic powers for the warmage/dread necro and the orders turn into different paths for each of them (maybe the warmage is split into different elemental schools of fire/lightning/ice/acid and the dread necro would split into a variety of undead-type transformations). I'd give the warmage a spell list heavy one evocation and abjuration, while the dread necro would get necromancy and divination (avoiding conjuration and transmutation since those schools are where most broken spells can be found).


I was thinking of something along fairly similar lines. Good point about leaving conjuration and transmutation out for these casters. For the warmage I might give them an at-will blasting ability which is attuned to a specific element that gains specific effects/shaping abilities in lieu of orders (sort of like a less versatile warlock with full casting). For the dread necromancer it would be the standard transformative progression, each with a different focus.


One thing to bear in mind, though, is that a War Mage might get some utility out of older "conjuration" spells - there may well have been some conjuration in 3.5 that really should have been evocation. I don't recall all the new spells created and presented with them, however, so I'm giving more general advice than something specific. Also, the necromancer may be interested in a line of spells called "summon undead" or something like that (basically summon monster... but undead), though I'm not sure if that's dipping too deeply into the conjuration thing either, or if there's a PF variant already.

Anyway... /ramble.


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Tacticslion wrote:

One thing to bear in mind, though, is that a War Mage might get some utility out of older "conjuration" spells - there may well have been some conjuration in 3.5 that really should have been evocation. I don't recall all the new spells created and presented with them, however, so I'm giving more general advice than something specific. Also, the necromancer may be interested in a line of spells called "summon undead" or something like that (basically summon monster... but undead), though I'm not sure if that's dipping too deeply into the conjuration thing either, or if there's a PF variant already.

Anyway... /ramble.

That's a good point. Much like the beguiler's spell list, the warmage and dread necromancer would still have a smattering of thematically appropriate spells from all schools, just with a major focus on two; so conjuration and transmutation spells would be in there, but likely mostly among the lower spell levels.


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Here's a start for the warmage:
Selectable PDF


ertw wrote:

Here's a start for the warmage:

Selectable PDF

Oh, man... Haven't even looked through all of this yet, but I like where it's going. Warmage is another class I've been interested in for a while. Are you going to make a separate thread to get more feedback? I would follow that one as well.


If I hadn't dotted this already, I'd do so again.


So I couldn't wait:

I'm confused about how you can use Arcane Blast at level 1 vs level 9. Isn't it already used in place of an attack?

I also found the Ricocheting Blast to be confusing. Does it only ricochet when a target has a successful save? And for that matter, I thought Arcane Blast targets don't get a saving throw.

Energy Substitution will open up a world of possibilities. Acidballs, Electricity Prisons, Gusts of Earth! I love it!

Have you thought about playing more with Elemental Aura? Maybe as a spell-like ability x times per day and/or constant at level 20? (Although there are already quite a few level 20 perks) Doesn't seem overly powerful, but I think would add a certain intimidating essence to the warmage.

Maybe bonus languages based on the respective element? Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran.

I really liked the class skills for each circle, btw. I thought Acrobatics was especially creative :) Initially I was thinking Knowledge (Nature) might be better for Standing Stone, but after reading the description I definitely agree with Survival.

For the Rolling Thunder Elemental Dynamic using flight could grant the Scent Ability. You know... cuz all dem smells in the air and stuff.

Maybe you could add a sentence in the Standing Stone Arcane Evolution description to explain why their damage is acid? I understand why (now), but it just seems random when you're not familiar with the energy types. Something about the naturally dangerous/reactive chemicals of the earth or something? Idk.

Also, do you plan on making any archetypes or think you'll just stick with the 4 elemental circles?

Great work, regardless.

Typos I noticed:

Furthermore each circle is not well attuned to an conflicting element;

At 20th level, a warmage is named a champion of his circle, as he undergoes a metamorphosis; his body is sizzles with energy and his eyes glow bright with arcane power.

In these cases, the governing body consists of a council of eight appointed masters (two from each circle), and overseen by a praetor who casts the deciding vote in the case of deadlock.

Spells marked with 4 appear in the Advanced Race Guide and are only available to beguilers of the appropriate race.

^haha :)

The following are circles are each dedicated to one of the four fundamental elements (air, earth, fire, and water).

The circle of the standing stone diligently studies the element of earth. Like their patron element rolling thunder warmages are usually shrewd and slow to act.

Elf: The wagmage gains 1/6 of a new circle spell.


StealthDiabeetis wrote:
I'm confused about how you can use Arcane Blast at level 1 vs level 9. Isn't it already used in place of an attack?

At 1st level the arcane blast can only be used as a standard action. This means that, like spells, it can't be used as part of a full-attack action that grants multiple attacks. At 9th level (though I ought to reduce that to 8th level, since that's where a warmage gets his second attack on a full-attack), he can use it in a full-attack action, so he'd make his arcane strike with the +6 BAB and then could make a melee/ranged attack with his weapon with a +1 BAB.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
I also found the Ricocheting Blast to be confusing. Does it only ricochet when a target has a successful save? And for that matter, I thought Arcane Blast targets don't get a saving throw.

The ricocheting blast only ricochets when the target successfully saves (and takes half damage). The secondary target essentially takes the remainder of that damage (unless they save and then the spell can ricochet again). While the regular arcane blast doesn't get a saving throw all the shape evolved blasts grant a Reflex save for half damage (since they change it into an area attack rather than a targeted strike).

As an example an 8th level warmage with a 4d10 blast can target two foes with his split blast. If the first target fails his save she takes all 4d10 of damage; however, if the second target successfully saves she takes half of the 4d10 damage (roughly 2d10) and the blast can ricochet to a third target. If that third target fails to save she takes 2d10 damage (half of the last target's dice), but if she does save she only takes half of that (roughly 1d10) and the blast can ricochet again to a fourth target. The fourth target is the final target since the damage dice can't be halved again, so she takes either the full 1d10 or half of it depending on her save. The net result regardless of saves is in the region of 8d10 damage all told, but the more saves that are made, the more distributed that damage is.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Energy Substitution will open up a world of possibilities. Acidballs, Electricity Prisons, Gusts of Earth! I love it!

That was really the idea that I opened up with when I was planning out the class. It really opens up the class to a realm of unique damage dealing options.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Have you thought about playing more with Elemental Aura? Maybe as a spell-like ability x times per day and/or constant at level 20? (Although there are already quite a few level 20 perks) Doesn't seem overly powerful, but I think would add a certain intimidating essence to the warmage.

I had considered something like that, but put the idea on the backburner since, as you pointed out, there are quite a few goodies involved in the capstone. It might work well in place of the conditions that are ignored 25% of the time.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Maybe bonus languages based on the respective element? Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran.

I was totally planning to do that, but forgot to put it in! Thanks for reminding me.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Maybe you could add a sentence in the Standing Stone Arcane Evolution description to explain why their damage is acid? I understand why (now), but it just seems random when you're not familiar with the energy types. Something about the naturally dangerous/reactive chemicals of the earth or something? Idk.

The connection between earth and acid has been pretty enshrined in the cosmology of 3.5 and Pathfinder's settings which is why I had figured it didn't really need explanation.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Also, do you plan on making any archetypes or think you'll just stick with the 4 elemental circles?

I've tossed a few ideas for archetypes around in my head, but haven't yet found one that seems as worthwhile as the theurgic brigand or elusive wildling were for the beguiler. I'd be open to ideas if anybody had one.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Great work, regardless.

Thanks for your great comments and I'll go over those typos you pointed out.


I love the arcane blast idea. Like you said, it gives the warmage the classic tool of a warlock, but with significantly fewer options. I especially like that it's tied to a warmage's element, so he has to figure out different approaches if he faces something that is resistant to his element. The use of damage die as spell level is really cool, especially with the metamagic options.

The idea of the circles is just like the beguiler orders, it adds so much extra flavor and customization that was missing from the D&D class. This synergizes really well with the arcane blast, energy resistance and energy substitution.

You didn't really make any changes to warmage edge and that ability always struck me as underpowered. It's nice that Int is now the warmage's casting stat, but that's still only about 5-10 extra damage (which is peanuts at higher levels). I've seen a few conversions where people have changed it so it does Int*spell level extra damage, but that seems a bit strong. Maybe something like Int*half spell level would be more balanced.

Energy substitution is epic, like StealthDiabeetis said lots of fun options here. I especially like that it's not until level 18 that the warmage can change energy types from his favored element.

Solo tactics/teamwork feats and evasion are an interesting addition. They build on the idea of military discipline and combat versatility built into the class.

One thing I wasn't crazy about is that the warmage gets heavy armor proficiency. The class feels like it ought to be more of a Dex based build using mobility to avoid being hit (as evasion would imply). I can see two possible solutions.

  • Drop heavy armor and give them shield proficiency at 7 and medium armor at 13.
  • Remove the ability to use evasion and improved evasion in heavy armor.

I'd also second StealthDiabeetis's ideas of giving them elemental languages and elemental aura as part of their capstone. The save for elemental aura might be a bit low, you might want to boost it to the usual 10+1/2 level+Int formula. Maybe make the damage all or nothing, too.

Another thing that struck me is that the spell list seems like it's too big. It looks a lot bigger than the beguiler's (I guess there's more evocation and abjuration spells than illusion and enchantment). Maybe focus it down to avoid spells that basically have the same function with different elements.


Thanks for the clarifications, ertw.

I agree with Penumbral Shadow about the spell list size. I've found one of the challenges of playing my beguiler is trying to keep track of so many different spells. I love the flexibility and it's a good problem to have, but I could see it being excessive with the warmage. And with energy substitution you wouldn't really be missing out by losing redundant spell effects.

Also, I know you mentioned that warmage alignments tend to match the attitudes of the local government, but with all the talk of code and discipline, would it be more accurate to say they're prone to be Lawful?

Also for an archetype, would a religious type work? Someone who was converted or trained from a young age by the organization of a deity into some secretive brotherhood. They could use their own sort of divine substitution with less damage against non-preferred types or whatever. I'm not sure how it would work with balance and such. I just know there aren't many divine full casters and it sounds fun. Maybe one good aligned and one evil? Just a thought.


I think a lot of the points I would have made about the warmage have already been made so I'll cut ahead to the two issues I see.

1) Energy substitution is indeed an exciting option, but I think you've gone a bit broad on its scope. As an example of what I mean: what happens when you use it to change the descriptor of a light spell to fire? Does it become a damaging thing? Does it cause objects it's cast upon to burst into flames? To me the heading of all evocations and abjurations seems to be too big of a tent for this ability. I'd suggest maybe limiting its scope to spells from those schools that deal damage of one of the four energy types.

2) I worry a little about the favored class options for the half-elemental races (ifrits, oreads, sylphs and undines). An extra 2d10 damage could be really punishing, especially since arcane blast can be used alongside weapons during a full attack (an option I'm also a bit weary of even at 8d10 max damage). Imagine a level 20 oread dishing out a maximized blast of 100 damage (plus warmage edge) to a cone of enemies (that cuts through spell resistance) and then following up with weapon damage. That seems a bit OP to me, but I do like the idea that these four races would excel as warmages.

I would probably be a little better with this bump if the arcane blast was just a standard action that couldn't be used as part of a full attack. Maybe the ability to use it multiple times could be saved for rolling thunder (since they tend to target significantly less targets with their blast) in lieu of their warmage edge applying to everybody (or maybe just the two first targets, not on ricochets).

Otherwise I generally agree with the sentiment here. I agree that the spell list is too big and could be paired down a bit. Elemental languages would be great. I like the idea Penumbral Shadow had with respect to heavy armor and evasion; it's an interesting idea to make the warmage choose between being an arcane tank (with heavy armor, but at the cost of evasion) or a mobile caster (with evasion, but at the cost of heavy armor). The elemental-type immunities are an interesting choice for the capstone, but I think that the elemental aura StealthDiabeetis mentioned would be more thematically relevant.

One thing I just thought about while reading SD's mention about alignment. There's some elements that are more chaotic (air-fire) and some that are more lawful (earth-water) if that makes sense. I wonder if maybe the favored->neutral->opposed structure could turn into a favored->attuned->neutral->opposed structure (ex. for fire that would go fire->air->earth->water). This could make energy substitution more interesting as you could start with favored and attuned, then give neutral, then they finally get opposed with the level 18 power that lets them do everything.

For an archetype, the only thing that pops into mind is a positive/negative energy blaster, but that might end up looking a bit too much like a cleric.


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Sorry about my lack of responses, I've had company visiting and haven't had lots of time to work on the warmage. I'll definitely look into condensing the spell list.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
You didn't really make any changes to warmage edge and that ability always struck me as underpowered. It's nice that Int is now the warmage's casting stat, but that's still only about 5-10 extra damage (which is peanuts at higher levels). I've seen a few conversions where people have changed it so it does Int*spell level extra damage, but that seems a bit strong. Maybe something like Int*half spell level would be more balanced.

I'll have to run some numbers to see how that would work, the 1/2 spell level option might work out if I use LT Silverstar's ideas for limiting the arcane blast.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

One thing I wasn't crazy about is that the warmage gets heavy armor proficiency. The class feels like it ought to be more of a Dex based build using mobility to avoid being hit (as evasion would imply). I can see two possible solutions.

  • Drop heavy armor and give them shield proficiency at 7 and medium armor at 13.
  • Remove the ability to use evasion and improved evasion in heavy armor.

An interesting choice. I prefer the second option as it gives more build options for the same character.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Also, I know you mentioned that warmage alignments tend to match the attitudes of the local government, but with all the talk of code and discipline, would it be more accurate to say they're prone to be Lawful?

While I think there's probably a tendency toward lawful alignments, you'd definitely be able to find warmages of all alignments around the world.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Also for an archetype, would a religious type work? Someone who was converted or trained from a young age by the organization of a deity into some secretive brotherhood. They could use their own sort of divine substitution with less damage against non-preferred types or whatever. I'm not sure how it would work with balance and such. I just know there aren't many divine full casters and it sounds fun. Maybe one good aligned and one evil? Just a thought.

This gives me an idea for something of a cult-like society of warmages. Maybe something that was originally built up around the church of Nethys, but has since separated from most of those religious trappings. I'm thinking something built with less armour proficiencies, but more dexterity based abilities (think kensai vs. magus) with a smaller, more abjuration based spell list.

LT Silverstar wrote:
1) Energy substitution is indeed an exciting option, but I think you've gone a bit broad on its scope. As an example of what I mean: what happens when you use it to change the descriptor of a light spell to fire? Does it become a damaging thing? Does it cause objects it's cast upon to burst into flames? To me the heading of all evocations and abjurations seems to be too big of a tent for this ability. I'd suggest maybe limiting its scope to spells from those schools that deal damage of one of the four energy types.

A good point. I'll change the description of energy substitution to only include spells that deal elemental damage.

LT Silverstar wrote:
I would probably be a little better with this bump if the arcane blast was just a standard action that couldn't be used as part of a full attack. Maybe the ability to use it multiple times could be saved for rolling thunder (since they tend to target significantly less targets with their blast) in lieu of their warmage edge applying to everybody (or maybe just the two first targets, not on ricochets).

I like this idea, as I said above, it would better apply with the more damaging warmage's edge.

LT Silverstar wrote:
One thing I just thought about while reading SD's mention about alignment. There's some elements that are more chaotic (air-fire) and some that are more lawful (earth-water) if that makes sense. I wonder if maybe the favored->neutral->opposed structure could turn into a favored->attuned->neutral->opposed structure (ex. for fire that would go fire->air->earth->water). This could make energy substitution more interesting as you could start with favored and attuned, then give neutral, then they finally get opposed with the level 18 power that lets them do everything.

I see what you're getting at. Maybe lawful and chaotic isn't the right phrasing, it's more stable vs. dynamic from my viewpoint. I'll see how well that works into the class framework.

LT Silverstar wrote:
For an archetype, the only thing that pops into mind is a positive/negative energy blaster, but that might end up looking a bit too much like a cleric.

A negative energy blaster might work with the archetype I mentioned above. Right now in my mind it's kind of a toss-up between negative energy or force for the arcane blast damage type.


ertw wrote:
StealthDiabeetis wrote:
Also for an archetype, would a religious type work? Someone who was converted or trained from a young age by the organization of a deity into some secretive brotherhood. They could use their own sort of divine substitution with less damage against non-preferred types or whatever. I'm not sure how it would work with balance and such. I just know there aren't many divine full casters and it sounds fun. Maybe one good aligned and one evil? Just a thought.

This gives me an idea for something of a cult-like society of warmages. Maybe something that was originally built up around the church of Nethys, but has since separated from most of those religious trappings. I'm thinking something built with less armour proficiencies, but more dexterity based abilities (think kensai vs. magus) with a smaller, more abjuration based spell list.

LT Silverstar wrote:
For an archetype, the only thing that pops into mind is a positive/negative energy blaster, but that might end up looking a bit too much like a cleric.
A negative energy blaster might work with the archetype I mentioned above. Right now in my mind it's kind of a toss-up between negative energy or force for the arcane blast damage type.

That sounds really cool, maybe cut out armor proficiency completely and rely on mage armor and the like. It'd be cool to make it a force blaster that could deliver trips and bull rushes through his arcane blast (give him new CMs to use in place of blast evolutions). I might even suggest going as far as pulling out most damage spells and just giving them access to the cleric's inflict spells.


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Alright, I've put together your suggestions into the document as well as adding the new archetype and some magic items. I've also made a thread for the warmage which you can find here.


Dread necromancer conversion is posted now. You can find it here.


I've been thinking a little bit about the issue with spell list sizes that was brought up in the warmage thread for a little while. It's kind of a tight spot. On one hand these are highly specialized casters, why should they be denied access to certain spells in their area of specialization just to fit the mechanics of known spells. Given their limited spell portfolios, it seems too restrictive to give them a similar spells known progression to the sorcerer. On the other hand, giving them too expansive a spell list pushes the power level of these casters a bit farther than I think you would have originally intended. I've been thinking about this and I think I have a solution that's a bit of a hybrid of the two.

Give these classes a number of spells known, but give them more than the sorcerer. I think basically taking the sorcerer list and adding +6 to every entry would probably get you into the right ballpark. With this limitation, you can now expand these classes' spell lists to offer a broader range of spells, particularly in their specific portfolios. I've found in my playtesting with the beguiler I often used the same stable of spells over and over again, so a beguiler wouldn't be particularly hamstrung by this kind of system.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Give these classes a number of spells known, but give them more than the sorcerer. I think basically taking the sorcerer list and adding +6 to every entry would probably get you into the right ballpark. With this limitation, you can now expand these classes' spell lists to offer a broader range of spells, particularly in their specific portfolios. I've found in my playtesting with the beguiler I often used the same stable of spells over and over again, so a beguiler wouldn't be particularly hamstrung by this kind of system.

I was quite surprised to see this thread jump up again on my RSS feed list since I'd put these conversions aside for a little bit. I was definitely also having trouble reconciling the limits on the spell lists with the supposed mastery of their schools and I think this might be an interesting fit. I'll have to play around with it a bit, but I think it could probably work at a +5 of sorcerer's spells known rate with cantrips not increasing (so a beguiler would always know her nine cantrips). I really like this idea for a nice middle ground for the variant casters.


I gotta say this is brilliant, there's a bunch of conversions out there for beguiler and none come even close to this, the orders alone make beguiler so much better/versatile, I'm thinking of rolling with "Theurgic Brigand"

A few things though, I love most of that archetype but I don't really get the "Evil thug" part of it...seems to me like it's more just about having a natural talent and possibly some wanderlust as opposed to being a learned trait and being linked to a guild/order. Maybe call the archetype "Natural Trickster" or something.

On that note I'd say instead of Dr/1aw and prot vs law...maybe have it by DR/your alignment and Prot vs. opposite of your alignment or replace the abilities with something that focuses more on the wanderlust or "natural caster" aspect like SR and some movement related stuff.

Again though other than that it's BRILLIANT!!


Failedlegend The Eternal Gish wrote:
I gotta say this is brilliant, there's a bunch of conversions out there for beguiler and none come even close to this, the orders alone make beguiler so much better/versatile, I'm thinking of rolling with "Theurgic Brigand"

Thanks so much, I'm glad to hear people are excited about it!

Failedlegend The Eternal Gish wrote:

A few things though, I love most of that archetype but I don't really get the "Evil thug" part of it...seems to me like it's more just about having a natural talent and possibly some wanderlust as opposed to being a learned trait and being linked to a guild/order. Maybe call the archetype "Natural Trickster" or something.

On that note I'd say instead of Dr/1aw and prot vs law...maybe have it by DR/your alignment and Prot vs. opposite of your alignment or replace the abilities with something that focuses more on the wanderlust or "natural caster" aspect like SR and some movement related stuff.

While my intention wasn't to paint the theurgic brigand as an evil thug, the beguiler power set is often difficult to reconcile with a good alignment (resulting in a lot of characters who are neutral at best). On top of that, enchantment magic is likely considered unlawful amongst most civilizations. Like the rogue, even a lawful theurgic brigand (such as one who lives by her own code) will often find herself at odds with local guards/sheriffs/etc. While other beguilers have a guild to protect them from such forces, the theurgic brigand is on her own. It's that opposition to law enforcement, rather than a natural aversion to lawful alignments, that is embodied in the extra protections of DR/law and protection from law.


ertw wrote:
Failedlegend The Eternal Gish wrote:
I gotta say this is brilliant, there's a bunch of conversions out there for beguiler and none come even close to this, the orders alone make beguiler so much better/versatile, I'm thinking of rolling with "Theurgic Brigand"

Thanks so much, I'm glad to hear people are excited about it!

Failedlegend The Eternal Gish wrote:

A few things though, I love most of that archetype but I don't really get the "Evil thug" part of it...seems to me like it's more just about having a natural talent and possibly some wanderlust as opposed to being a learned trait and being linked to a guild/order. Maybe call the archetype "Natural Trickster" or something.

On that note I'd say instead of Dr/1aw and prot vs law...maybe have it by DR/your alignment and Prot vs. opposite of your alignment or replace the abilities with something that focuses more on the wanderlust or "natural caster" aspect like SR and some movement related stuff.

While my intention wasn't to paint the theurgic brigand as an evil thug, the beguiler power set is often difficult to reconcile with a good alignment (resulting in a lot of characters who are neutral at best). On top of that, enchantment magic is likely considered unlawful amongst most civilizations. Like the rogue, even a lawful theurgic brigand (such as one who lives by her own code) will often find herself at odds with local guards/sheriffs/etc. While other beguilers have a guild to protect them from such forces, the theurgic brigand is on her own. It's that opposition to law enforcement, rather than a natural aversion to lawful alignments, that is embodied in the extra protections of DR/law and protection from law.

I still don't really think the name and the law stuff suit the archtype but I see where your coming from so I won't bug ya about it but for my purposes the DM house ruled a few things to suit the campaign (playing a variant of Dark Sun) I'm a Beguiler/Swiftblade fighting against defiler's and yes the sheer fact that I use Arcane Magic is a source of contention with most people unless I convince them I'm a preserver...character is Lawful...other is either Neutral or Good I'm not really sure yet.

One cool thing the DM came up with is that in his world Preserver Arcanes use "Familiars" which are actually a small part of themselves (others can't see the familiar) and their essentially a mana battery that recharges with the spellcasters rest, meditation,etc. I chose a ferret :D It fits the "natural caster" feel of spontaneous casters quite well imo.

Note: The "familiar doesn't have any actual mechanical benefit it's just for RP unless you actually obtain a familiar somehow in which case you familiar somehow manifested physically.


Have you had a chance to look at the Advanced Class Guide? I got my copy today and there are a decent number of spells and feats that would work well with the beguiler. There was also a feat for the slayer that lets him coup de grace as a swift action (on a wider range of conditions like dazed) that made me chuckle when I remembered people complaining that the beguiler being able to coup de grace as a standard action was massively overpowered :P


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Have you had a chance to look at the Advanced Class Guide? I got my copy today and there are a decent number of spells and feats that would work well with the beguiler. There was also a feat for the slayer that lets him coup de grace as a swift action (on a wider range of conditions like dazed) that made me chuckle when I remembered people complaining that the beguiler being able to coup de grace as a standard action was massively overpowered :P

I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive, but I'm excited to hear that there are some fun toys to integrate into my beguiler. That slayer feat sounds monstrous, what kind of prerequisites does it have? How early would a slayer be able to take it?


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I've taken some time to work out a "known spells" version of the beguiler as Penumbral Shadow had suggested. I've also changed the nature of the order spells (now called savvy preparation). You can check them out with the following links.

Updated conversion documents:
Formatted PDF
Selectable PDF


ertw wrote:
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Have you had a chance to look at the Advanced Class Guide? I got my copy today and there are a decent number of spells and feats that would work well with the beguiler. There was also a feat for the slayer that lets him coup de grace as a swift action (on a wider range of conditions like dazed) that made me chuckle when I remembered people complaining that the beguiler being able to coup de grace as a standard action was massively overpowered :P
I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive, but I'm excited to hear that there are some fun toys to integrate into my beguiler. That slayer feat sounds monstrous, what kind of prerequisites does it have? How early would a slayer be able to take it?

It requires five sneak attack dice and the dastardly finish feat. A pure slayer doesn't qualify for the feat until level 16, but with multiclassing that can easily be brought down to level 9 or 10.

It'll be a few days before I can comment about the changes, but I'm excited to see them.


So I've looked over the new pdf and I love the new spell list. I think it expands on the different kinds of beguiler builds even more now that he can choose to load his spells known purely with illusions, enchantments or any kind of mix of the two.

Savvy preparation is really neat, but I'm on the fence about a few things. First, I think they should get a prepared spell slot for every spell level. While this would be ridiculously powerful on a wiz/sorc due to the breadth of their spell lists, I think for the beguiler it would just mean you didn't have to learn the highly situational spells on their list. Secondly, I love the idea of order preparation, since it basically draws on the cool casting mechanics seen in the arcanist and in 5E's prepared casters. On the other hand I'm not crazy about independent preparation. I get that it's the other side of the coin of order preparation (extra spell known vs. extra spell slot), but it seems like extra complication without much advantage.

Here's how I'd recommend changing it around:

  • Add a prepared spell slot at level 2 and every 2 levels thereafter (each time a beguiler gains a new level of spells). In the process you can remove the bit about preparing a spell of lower level than the slot.
  • Allow a beguiler to add his order spells to the beguiler spell list. Not to spells known but to the spell list so he can choose to learn them if he wants, or prepare them using savvy preparation.
  • Make all spells prepared in this slot work like order preparation, so they are essentially added to the beguiler's spells known for the day.
  • At level 20 you could give them a capstone slot that is powerful (maybe something like preparing with metamagic with the spell level increase decreased by 1, or prepare any wiz/sorc spell up to 3rd level).

That's just my two cents.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Savvy preparation is really neat, but I'm on the fence about a few things. First, I think they should get a prepared spell slot for every spell level. While this would be ridiculously powerful on a wiz/sorc due to the breadth of their spell lists, I think for the beguiler it would just mean you didn't have to learn the highly situational spells on their list.

I had considered giving to them one slot at every spell level, but was concerned it might be too powerful. You do raise a good point about the spell list though, so I might reconsider it.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

Secondly, I love the idea of order preparation, since it basically draws on the cool casting mechanics seen in the arcanist and in 5E's prepared casters. On the other hand I'm not crazy about independent preparation. I get that it's the other side of the coin of order preparation (extra spell known vs. extra spell slot), but it seems like extra complication without much advantage.

Here's how I'd recommend changing it around:

  • Add a prepared spell slot at level 2 and every 2 levels thereafter (each time a beguiler gains a new level of spells). In the process you can remove the bit about preparing a spell of lower level than the slot.
  • Allow a beguiler to add his order spells to the beguiler spell list. Not to spells known but to the spell list so he can choose to learn them if he wants, or prepare them using savvy preparation.
  • Make all spells prepared in this slot work like order preparation, so they are essentially added to the beguiler's spells known for the day.
  • At level 20 you could give them a capstone slot that is powerful (maybe something like preparing with metamagic with the spell level increase decreased by 1, or prepare any wiz/sorc spell up to 3rd level).

That's just my two cents.

Those are some good ideas. I especially like the idea about adding the order spell list as additional spells a beguiler can learn. I'm not sure if I want to add another capstone to the class; there's already the aspect of mastery, and the 20th level modification to cloaked casting.


ertw wrote:
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Savvy preparation is really neat, but I'm on the fence about a few things. First, I think they should get a prepared spell slot for every spell level. While this would be ridiculously powerful on a wiz/sorc due to the breadth of their spell lists, I think for the beguiler it would just mean you didn't have to learn the highly situational spells on their list.

I had considered giving to them one slot at every spell level, but was concerned it might be too powerful. You do raise a good point about the spell list though, so I might reconsider it.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

Secondly, I love the idea of order preparation, since it basically draws on the cool casting mechanics seen in the arcanist and in 5E's prepared casters. On the other hand I'm not crazy about independent preparation. I get that it's the other side of the coin of order preparation (extra spell known vs. extra spell slot), but it seems like extra complication without much advantage.

Here's how I'd recommend changing it around:

  • Add a prepared spell slot at level 2 and every 2 levels thereafter (each time a beguiler gains a new level of spells). In the process you can remove the bit about preparing a spell of lower level than the slot.
  • Allow a beguiler to add his order spells to the beguiler spell list. Not to spells known but to the spell list so he can choose to learn them if he wants, or prepare them using savvy preparation.
  • Make all spells prepared in this slot work like order preparation, so they are essentially added to the beguiler's spells known for the day.
  • At level 20 you could give them a capstone slot that is powerful (maybe something like preparing with metamagic with the spell level increase decreased by 1, or prepare any wiz/sorc spell up to 3rd level).

That's just my two cents.

Those are some good ideas. I especially like the idea about adding the order spell list as additional spells a beguiler can learn. I'm not sure if I want to add another capstone to the class; there's already the aspect of mastery, and the 20th level modification to cloaked casting.

The level 20 upgrade doesn't necessarily need to be anything too overpowered. You might even do something like giving a second prepared spell slot where the spell list is broadest (levels 1-3).


Another thing I just thought about:
Druidic tutelage naturally matches up with the every even level progression for savvy preparation, but will stolen knowledge get the same?


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
The level 20 upgrade doesn't necessarily need to be anything too overpowered. You might even do something like giving a second prepared spell slot where the spell list is broadest (levels 1-3).

That sounds like a decent middle ground; not overly powerful and it would echo the 3.5 beguiler spell list's emphasis on 2nd and 3rd level spells.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

Another thing I just thought about:

Druidic tutelage naturally matches up with the every even level progression for savvy preparation, but will stolen knowledge get the same?

I think the early entry and versatility (beyond illusion and enchantment) provided by the bard spell list are sufficiently powerful to leave it as is.


ertw wrote:
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
The level 20 upgrade doesn't necessarily need to be anything too overpowered. You might even do something like giving a second prepared spell slot where the spell list is broadest (levels 1-3).

That sounds like a decent middle ground; not overly powerful and it would echo the 3.5 beguiler spell list's emphasis on 2nd and 3rd level spells.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

Another thing I just thought about:

Druidic tutelage naturally matches up with the every even level progression for savvy preparation, but will stolen knowledge get the same?
I think the early entry and versatility (beyond illusion and enchantment) provided by the bard spell list are sufficiently powerful to leave it as is.

Sounds good!


Just had a thought: if saavy preparation gets a capstone, that might throw off the balance on the equivalent powers for the archetypes.


Updated savvy preparation. I included extra 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level slots in the level progression so it doesn't interfere with the archetypes.

Updated conversion documents:
Formatted PDF
Selectable PDF


Awesome! I wonder if it might be a bit tidier to list the savvy preparation spells as +1 or +2's on the spells known table (sort of like a cleric's domain spells are done) instead of listing each new slot on the class features table.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Awesome! I wonder if it might be a bit tidier to list the savvy preparation spells as +1 or +2's on the spells known table (sort of like a cleric's domain spells are done) instead of listing each new slot on the class features table.

That's a really good idea, let me see if it'll work (the spells known table has fairly narrow columns).


Here are the conversion documents with the new formatting for the savvy preparation spells:
Formatted PDF
Selectable PDF


That looks absolutely fantastic! Much cleaner.


I just noticed the stygian step beguiling trick, how long has that been in there? That is a really cool option! Was it inspired by the stygian slayer archetype?


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I just noticed the stygian step beguiling trick, how long has that been in there? That is a really cool option! Was it inspired by the stygian slayer archetype?

I added that in before the spells known. For a time I was considering replacing the black blade options for the baleful shadow with an at will, short range teleport, but settled on stygian step as a middle ground between the two ideas.


ertw wrote:
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I just noticed the stygian step beguiling trick, how long has that been in there? That is a really cool option! Was it inspired by the stygian slayer archetype?
I added that in before the spells known. For a time I was considering replacing the black blade options for the baleful shadow with an at will, short range teleport, but settled on stygian step as a middle ground between the two ideas.

Now that sounds really cool! Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the blackblade option for the baleful shadow, but it seems that you've put a lot of work into making the order powers unique while the bakeful shadow is a series of borrowed abilities with a few beguiler-specific twists. As nice as having a little more martial effectiveness than the other orders is, usually a baleful shadow beguiler probably gets more battlefield mileage out of shadow evocation. Giving them an at will (or even 3+int /day) teleport ability (actually maybe the stygian step ability might even be a better fit, so it just reduces AOOs while moving) and a sneak attack option really draws on the unique, core abilities of the beguiler.


The reason I didn't really pursue it was that teleportation is hard to balance; at will seems too powerful, while per day uses could be too limiting. You raise an interesting point about shadow evocation vs. black blade effectiveness; when you were playtesting did you find you went to shadow evocation first? When you did use the black blade what kind of beguiling tricks did you use most often?


ertw wrote:
The reason I didn't really pursue it was that teleportation is hard to balance; at will seems too powerful, while per day uses could be too limiting. You raise an interesting point about shadow evocation vs. black blade effectiveness; when you were playtesting did you find you went to shadow evocation first? When you did use the black blade what kind of beguiling tricks did you use most often?

Shadow evocation was definitely a much more effective tool for dealing damage, particularly spells like shocking grasp or scorching ray that required touch attacks (which allowed me to add wraith strike damage to the spell, weaponlike spells and all that). When I did focus on using the black blade, it was almost exclusively using black blade ascendancy to hit harder and gain extra attacks. The other beguiling tricks were interesting, but almost always too situational to override the need to kill whatever was in front of me.

I really like the idea of bringing the focus of the baleful shadow down to its shadow spells. To me it helps differentiate that order form ghastly claw. GC is a focused, single target damage dealer, while BS specializes in spreading damage around. Since wraith strike doesn't deal damage to crit-immune creatures there's still a blindspot for a DM to exploit. Here's how I'd build up this new BS beguiler:

  • level 1: Stygian Step - 3+int per day become incorporeal to resolve AOOs during move action. Allowing an early level beguiler to avoid AOOs isn't a big deal, especially since they can use acrobatics or invisibility already to get around this. At high levels 3+int is quite a few times, too, so it's almost as if the endgame beguiler has this ability at will.
  • level 7: Wraith Strike - same idea as currently exists. A delayed dice progression like the slayer would probably fit well here. Replace the d8 damage dice for black blade with d8 damage dice for shadow evocation (maybe powerful, but so is a 5d8 sneak attack on four attacks with a blackblade). Maybe match its range to the close range for spells.
  • level 14: Beguiling Tricks - trade out daily uses of stygian step for neat powers. Something like two uses to teleport (avoiding all chance of AOOs), or two uses and a standard action to pass through an opponent and deal wraith strike damage to him. Maybe even something that imitates combat manouvers.


That's an interesting setup, I hadn't considered putting wraith strike in as the 7th level power and I was worried that stygian step by itself would be too weak of a power to add at 7th or higher. Let me see what I might be able to put together around that framework.


Awesome!


Here's what I've come up with for the baleful shadow:

Order of the Baleful Shadow:
Stygian Step (Su): At 1st level, a beguiler can transform her body into an intangible cloud of shadows as part of a move action as long as she begins in an area dim light or darkness. During that move action, any attacks of opportunity which she provokes are resolved as if she were an incorporeal creature. She must declare use of this ability at the start of her move action. A beguiler can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier.

At 9th level, a beguiler can initiate a stygian step regardless of lighting conditions.

Wraith Strike (Su): At 7th level, a beguiler can summon energy from the plane of shadows to strike an unaware foe in a vital spot for extra damage.

The beguiler's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not). This extra damage is 1d4 at 7th level, and increases by 1d4 every three beguiler levels thereafter. Should the beguiler score a critical hit with a wraith strike, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as a wraith strike only if the target is within 40 feet. Any foe that is immune to sneak attack damage is also immune to this extra damage.

A beguiler can also apply wraith strike damage to any spell she casts of the shadow subschool, so long as that spell deals hit point damage and requires an attack roll; this includes damage dealt by striking an opponent with a weapon created by the shadow weapon spell. While making a wraith strike with one of these spells, she uses d6s to roll wraith strike damage instead of d4s. If her target disbelieves the illusion he takes no extra damage from this ability.

At 8th level, and every two beguiler levels thereafter, the range at which a beguiler can deal wraith strike damage increases by 5 feet.

Shadow Trickery (Su): At 13th level, a beguiler's bond to the plane of shadow deepens. She can now augment her abilities with a number of tricks fueled by stygian step power. She gains a single trick from the following list, and a subsequent trick every 3 levels thereafter. Unless otherwise noted, a beguiler can only use one trick per round.

Arcane Reflection: The beguiler can sacrifice a number daily uses of her stygian step ability as an immediate action when targeted by an evocation spell of 7th level or lower. The number stygian step uses expended must equal or exceed the level of the spell or they are wasted. When she does so, the spell's energy is transported to the plane of shadow and then reflected back at its caster as if by means of a greater shadow evocation spell; if he is vulnerable to wraith strike, the reflected spell deals this additional damage to the caster as well. A beguiler can use this trick even if she has already used a trick this round.

Baleful Touch: By expending one additional use of her stygian step ability as a standard action, a beguiler can pass through a single enemy during her stygian step. The beguiler makes a melee touch attack against this foe and, if she hits, deals wraith strike damage to him using d8 damage dice. This trick cannot be used against a creature that is immune to her wraith strike.

Cloak of Shadows: The beguiler can sacrifice two daily uses of her stygian step ability as a standard action to surround herself with shadowy energy. By doing so, she gains a deflection bonus to her AC equal to number of wraith strike damage dice until the end of her next turn.

Dispelling Touch: By expending one additional use of her stygian step ability, a beguiler can pass through a single enemy during her stygian step. If the beguiler successfully makes a melee touch attack against this foe, she can dispel a single spell currently affecting the target. The spell level of the targeted spell must be equal to or less than her number of wraith strike damage dice. Unlike the dispel magic spell, no caster level check need be made; the spell is automatically nullified.

Shadow Leech: The beguiler can sacrifice one daily uses of her stygian step ability as an immediate action upon successfully dealing wraith strike damage. Upon doing so, she deals an additional number of points of bleed damage equal to her number of wraith strike damage dice. She can only apply this bleed damage to a single foe per round.

Stygian Jump: By expending two additional uses of her stygian step ability, a beguiler can travel to her destination as if by means of a dimension door spell during her stygian step. This magical transport can only be used if the stygian step begins and ends in an area with at least some dim light. Her destination must be a location she would be able to reach using a single move action.


It looks good but I've got a few thoughts. I don't like the requirements on lighting for stygian step, it seems a needless limitation of the power and it disappears a few levels later. I also think there ought to be a few more shadow tricks, the blade bond ability it's replacing had 11 options to choose between, this one only has 6.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I don't like the requirements on lighting for stygian step, it seems a needless limitation of the power and it disappears a few levels later.

The lighting limitation is meant to act as a disincentive for martial characters to take a one level dip into beguiler in order to gain a way to bypass attacks of opportunity. It was part of the reason I ended up adding a save the the ghastly claw's paralyzing strike ability.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I also think there ought to be a few more shadow tricks, the blade bond ability it's replacing had 11 options to choose between, this one only has 6.

I can definitely put together a few more tricks.


Add the following to the list of tricks tricks:

More Tricks:
Dusk Aura: By expending one additional use of her stygian step ability as a swift action, a beguiler begins to exude an aura of shadow. For a number of rounds equal to her number of wraith strike damage dice, the space she occupies is treated as if it were under the influence of a darkness spell. This aura does not inhibit her vision in any way.

Extended Step: By expending one additional use of her stygian step ability, a beguiler can extend her stygian step until the beginning of her next turn. She is treated as incorporeal for this entire duration.

Incorporeal Anatomy: The beguiler can sacrifice one daily use of her stygian step ability as an immediate action when a foe confirms a critical hit against her, or if she is subject to a sneak attack. This negates any extra damage, instead acting as though she were hit normally.

At 19th level, a beguiler gains the ability to learn a peerless trick from the following list, in place of a shadow trick. Activating a peerless trick halves the beguiler's allotment of daily uses of stygian step; this must be done while her daily uses of stygian step are full. A peerless trick remains in effect until she regains her daily uses of stygian step, but its effects can be suppressed or restored as a swift action.

Clawing Shadows: Swirling shadows encircle the beguiler providing her with two illusory claw attacks dealing 1d3 slashing damage each. These are treated as secondary natural attacks. Any creature who is struck with these claws receives a Will save to disbelieve. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the beguiler's level + her Intelligence modifier. If the targeted creature successfully disbelieves the illusion of the claws, he takes no damage and the attack is wasted. These claws are completely separate from her body and do not interfere with the beguiler's normal use of her own appendages.

If the beguiler applies wraith strike damage to these claw attacks, she uses d6s as damage dice instead of d4s. If her target disbelieves the illusion he takes no extra damage from the wraith strike.

Dimensional Step: Coiling paths of shadowstuff leads the beguiler through the plane of shadows. If she so chooses, the beguiler's stygian step ability can act as if it were modified by the stygian jump trick without the required additional uses, even if she did not learn that trick. Her origin and destination must still meet the required lighting conditions for a stygian jump.

Keen Arcana: The beguiler's spells are guided to her opponents' weaknesses by a grim, supernatural insight. Her threat range is doubled for her shadow subschool spells which require an attack roll and deal hit point damage; this does not include weapons created by the shadow weapon spell. This benefit doesn't stack with any other effects that expand the threat range of her spells (such as the Improved Critical feat). Furthermore, the DC of the save to disbelieve these illusions is increased by 2.


ertw wrote:
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I don't like the requirements on lighting for stygian step, it seems a needless limitation of the power and it disappears a few levels later.
The lighting limitation is meant to act as a disincentive for martial characters to take a one level dip into beguiler in order to gain a way to bypass attacks of opportunity. It was part of the reason I ended up adding a save the the ghastly claw's paralyzing strike ability.

I guess that makes sense. I like the new tricks and I'm really digging the peerless tricks. I can't help but wonder though if they end up giving undo advantage to races with the +1/2 use for 3+int/day powers favored class bonus. I wonder if it might be better to give the beguiler a "stygian pool" instead of uses per day of stygian step and have those powers draw off of that. I also think the changes to the order weaken the capstone power since gaining partial concealment in normal light isn't that much a boon to a character who can turn incorporeal or darken any area around her. Maybe give them concealment in normal light and full concealment in dim light?


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I can't help but wonder though if they end up giving undo advantage to races with the +1/2 use for 3+int/day powers favored class bonus. I wonder if it might be better to give the beguiler a "stygian pool" instead of uses per day of stygian step and have those powers draw off of that.

The only race that currently has that favoured class bonus is the Vishkanya who aren't the most optimized choice for orders based around spellcasting like the baleful shadow; IMHO they are a much better fit mechanically (as well as fluff-wise) as ghastly claw or wandering heart beguilers.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I also think the changes to the order weaken the capstone power since gaining partial concealment in normal light isn't that much a boon to a character who can turn incorporeal or darken any area around her. Maybe give them concealment in normal light and full concealment in dim light?

That's definitely a concern I hadn't noticed. I'll take a look at maybe giving them the ability for their space to be considered one step darker for concealment and perception.

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