Beguiler conversion for Pathfinder


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JHeats wrote:
I'm a big fan of this conversion, in fact I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I went for about a month before I realized it wasn't an official paizo product. Have you ever considered making a psionic archetype for the beguiler? It seems like a pretty natural fit.

I'm glad to hear you're enjoying the conversion. I had briefly considered making the whispering initiate a psychic archetype, but reconsidered as that's really more of the mesmerist's area.

And since we're at the top of the page again here are the most recent links for newcomers:

Beguiler Conversion - main conversion document
Beguilers of the Inner Seas - Golarion themed options for your beguiler


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ertw wrote:
JHeats wrote:
I'm a big fan of this conversion, in fact I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I went for about a month before I realized it wasn't an official paizo product. Have you ever considered making a psionic archetype for the beguiler? It seems like a pretty natural fit.

I'm glad to hear you're enjoying the conversion. I had briefly considered making the whispering initiate a psychic archetype, but reconsidered as that's really more of the mesmerist's area.

And since we're at the top of the page again here are the most recent links for newcomers:

Beguiler Conversion - main conversion document
Beguilers of the Inner Seas - Golarion themed options for your beguiler

Psionics and Psychic magic are two different systems.

I believe JHeats referred to Ultimate Psionics published by Dreamscarred Press and other relevant books.


I know that this thread has been kind of dormant lately, but I just noticed that the Wandering Heart order has had an update. I really like it and it definitely feels like it continues to put them out as the premier enchanters among the Beguilers.

Now it seems that the only orders/archetypes that haven't had a major facelift since the first builds that Luke and I playtested the Beguiler are the Arcane Hand and the Theurgic Brigand. I know Arcane Hand was looked upon as the weakest order of them all before the other orders got updates. I was curious if you have any plans to give the Arcane Hand a new coat of paint?


I'm a fan of the class, but I seem to be having some form of issue with the PDF. When I mouse over the text, it changes the mouse to the symbol for text, yet I can't highlight it or copy+paste it at all. I also can't Ctrl+F the PDF, and there don't seem to be any bookmarks, and given the sheer size of the PDF that'd be extremely helpful.

Is this some form of error on my end? I've opened it both in my browser and downloaded a copy, and it persists in both.

Also, what does the Morithil Blade actually do? It just says it makes shadows, not that it changes the light level of areas at all. Is this intentional?


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Hey everybody, sorry again for the late replies; as I've said life has been busy and I haven't had much time for pathfinder or the beguiler for a while now.

Mashallah wrote:
I believe JHeats referred to Ultimate Psionics published by Dreamscarred Press and other relevant books.

In that case, I'd also prefer not to step on Deamscarred's toes, especially since they have some similar classes like the dread.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Now it seems that the only orders/archetypes that haven't had a major facelift since the first builds that Luke and I playtested the Beguiler are the Arcane Hand and the Theurgic Brigand. I know Arcane Hand was looked upon as the weakest order of them all before the other orders got updates. I was curious if you have any plans to give the Arcane Hand a new coat of paint?

I've had both of those on my mind lately for exactly that reason. I still like where I have the theurgic brigand, but I'm considering a few more talent options (including ones that give them a vigilante-style social identity and access to social talents). As for the arcane hand, it definitely needs work; I have a few approaches I've been mulling over, but I'd be open to any suggestions.

Robed Wizard wrote:

I'm a fan of the class, but I seem to be having some form of issue with the PDF. When I mouse over the text, it changes the mouse to the symbol for text, yet I can't highlight it or copy+paste it at all. I also can't Ctrl+F the PDF, and there don't seem to be any bookmarks, and given the sheer size of the PDF that'd be extremely helpful.

Is this some form of error on my end? I've opened it both in my browser and downloaded a copy, and it persists in both.

Unfortunately the fonts that I use for the conversion can't be embedded in the PDF, so they instead go into the document as images; that's why you aren't able to highlight, copy, or search. I've tried to fix it, but every time I do it interferes with the formatting of the document. I can definitely look into bookmarks.

Robed Wizard wrote:
Also, what does the Morithil Blade actually do? It just says it makes shadows, not that it changes the light level of areas at all. Is this intentional?

The morithil blade casts shadows as if it were a torch, but does not actually cast light itself; it doesn't do anything in complete darkness, but in a lit room it will create areas of shadow. This is useful for a number of abilities/spells that require shadows to activate. Beyond this, a few beguiler abilities (such as the baleful shadow's wraith strike ability) key on morithil blades.


ertw wrote:
I've had both of those on my mind lately for exactly that reason. I still like where I have the theurgic brigand, but I'm considering a few more talent options (including ones that give them a vigilante-style social identity and access to social talents). As for the arcane hand, it definitely needs work; I have a few approaches I've been mulling over, but I'd be open to any suggestions.

Glad to hear that you're still thinking about the beguiler. I like the sounds of your ideas for the Theurgic Brigand, but don't really have any ideas off the top of my head for an update of the Arcane Hand.


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Hi ertw,
I've been a fan of your beguiler since I found it linked in /pfg/. One problem that I've run into is that I like to copy and paste my abilities into my character sheet and the google doc doesn't allow for this. It's a bit tedious to retype everything, do you think you could release a version of the google doc that can be copied and pasted?


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TT_wilde wrote:

Hi ertw,

I've been a fan of your beguiler since I found it linked in /pfg/. One problem that I've run into is that I like to copy and paste my abilities into my character sheet and the google doc doesn't allow for this. It's a bit tedious to retype everything, do you think you could release a version of the google doc that can be copied and pasted?

Glad you're enjoying the class. I've put together a version of the conversion with embedded fonts, the formatting is wonky because of the font change, but you should be able to copy and paste whatever you need; you can find that here.


Any updates on the Arcane Hand and Theurgic Brigand?


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Before I get into my plans for the arcane hand, I'd just like to mention that I was recently interviewed by the modifier podcast about my experiences in putting together this beguiler conversion. It was a really fun (and somewhat surreal) experience, and if anybody is interested in listening that episode can be found here.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Any updates on the Arcane Hand and Theurgic Brigand?

Still haven't had much time to work it out properly, but I have a general idea of where I want to take the arcane hand. Essentially I'm looking at replacing false theurgy (which will be moving over to a brigand talent) with a modified casting option; essentially the beguiler would have two altered modes of casting which I've given the working titles of subtle and spectacular casting.

When casting a spell subtly, the beguiler would weave the verbal and somatic components of her spell into normal conversation through whispered incantations and subtle gestures; this would render the spell undetectable by spellcraft and automatically qualify for cloaked casting bonuses. The downside to subtle casting is that it would lower the DC and CL of the spell by -2, although enchantment spells would not be subject to this penalty.

A spell which is cast spectacularly is one in which the beguiler makes great efforts to deceive the observer of the power of the spell which she is casting through bombastic incantation and wild gesticulations. Spells cast in this way would gain a +1 bonus to DC and CL; the bonus would increase to +2 for illusion spells and shadow subschool spells would have a 20% increase in their effects "realness" on a successful save.

I'm also thinking about retooling stealspell a little to make it more unique to the beguiler, blending it a little with the savvy preparation class feature.


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Glad to see this project isn't dead, even if it is a little dormant. My group has been on hiatus between campaigns for the past few months, but lately I've been itching to put together one of those gun toting beguilers you mentioned months ago.


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SylverFox wrote:
Glad to see this project isn't dead, even if it is a little dormant. My group has been on hiatus between campaigns for the past few months, but lately I've been itching to put together one of those gun toting beguilers you mentioned months ago.

Thanks for the encouragement. Even though I haven't had time to sit down and flesh out the ideas I've had, I'm still thinking about the beguiler every day and toying with new ideas. I'm actually glad you posted in this thread, as I've been thinking about a potential new archetype and I was wondering if you would be alright with me co-opting the term flurry of blades you coined in Secret Wizard's racial archetypes thread as part of the archetype?


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ertw wrote:
I was wondering if you would be alright with me co-opting the term flurry of blades you coined in Secret Wizard's racial archetypes thread as part of the archetype?

Absolutely feel free to use it.


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A few days ago the topic came up on /pfg/ of how you could make the mesmer from Guild Wars 2 in pathfinder and I suggested that this conversion might make a good baseline for it. For those unfamiliar the mesmer specializes in using illusions both offensively and defensively. I put together a basic outline and I was hoping to get some thoughts:

Order of the Shattered Looking Glass

1st level order power would grant a mirror image-like spell-like ability (useable 3+Int times per day), but as he leveled up they would become more "real." The Beguiler would get +1 to attack and damage rolls which would increase by +1 at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 (like a Slayer's studied target). Maybe this bonus would have a maximum equal to the number of images present.

7th level order power would allow the beguiler to shatter any number of these images as a swift action to do a fixed amount of damage to everybody the Beguiler threatens (Reflex for half). Maybe at higher levels it could impose a negative condition on those in the area instead of the damage.

13th level order power would allow some of the images to actually make attacks. One attack at Beguiler's highest BAB at 13th level, a second attack at highest BAB-5 at 16th level (as long as two images exist), a third attack at highest BAB-10 at 19th level (as long as three images exist).

Not sure about the capstone order power yet.

Would this idea be interesting to anybody?


JammyPanda wrote:

A few days ago the topic came up on /pfg/ of how you could make the mesmer from Guild Wars 2 in pathfinder and I suggested that this conversion might make a good baseline for it. For those unfamiliar the mesmer specializes in using illusions both offensively and defensively. I put together a basic outline and I was hoping to get some thoughts:

Order of the Shattered Looking Glass

1st level order power would grant a mirror image-like spell-like ability (useable 3+Int times per day), but as he leveled up they would become more "real." The Beguiler would get +1 to attack and damage rolls which would increase by +1 at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 (like a Slayer's studied target). Maybe this bonus would have a maximum equal to the number of images present.

7th level order power would allow the beguiler to shatter any number of these images as a swift action to do a fixed amount of damage to everybody the Beguiler threatens (Reflex for half). Maybe at higher levels it could impose a negative condition on those in the area instead of the damage.

13th level order power would allow some of the images to actually make attacks. One attack at Beguiler's highest BAB at 13th level, a second attack at highest BAB-5 at 16th level (as long as two images exist), a third attack at highest BAB-10 at 19th level (as long as three images exist).

Not sure about the capstone order power yet.

Would this idea be interesting to anybody?

This is an intriguing idea, even though the shadowgraft skirmisher kind of touches on the idea of using illusions offensively but your concept is pretty unique. I especially like the shatter ability. I think it might work better as an archetype rather than an order because the more martially minded beguiler options typically use the diminished spellcasting feature to balance it out.

For the capstone, I'd suggest something like making one of the illusions permanent giving it its own set of iterative attacks that mirror your own.


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Apparently I'm still a kid underneath it all, because I only jumper in here to get the 666th post.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Apparently I'm still a kid underneath it all, because I only jumper in here to get the 666th post.

LOL I think I'm still a kid too :P


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I'm dropping in to announce that I've updated the main conversion document. This update doesn't include the changes for the arcane hand or theurgic brigand, but does have some minor tuning for the elusive wildling (in light of Paizo's feyspeaker druid archetype) as well as a new series of variant rules for a few items that people have consistently complained about regarding my conversion including options for returning the beguiler to an all spells known casting mechanic (with significantly shortened spell list) and options for beguilers that don't require the organization of the beguilers' guild.

PS Sorry I haven't been around to respond to your idea JammyPanda. I'll try to drop in to comment on it in the next few days.


ertw wrote:
I'm dropping in to announce that I've updated the main conversion document. This update doesn't include the changes for the arcane hand or theurgic brigand, but does have some minor tuning for the elusive wildling (in light of Paizo's feyspeaker druid archetype)

I get the increase of the skills per level, but what prompted the change from summon nature's ally to witch patrons?

ertw wrote:
as well as a new series of variant rules for a few items that people have consistently complained about regarding my conversion including options for returning the beguiler to an all spells known casting mechanic (with significantly shortened spell list) and options for beguilers that don't require the organization of the beguilers' guild.

This is very cool, I know I've seen people complaining about those aspects of your conversion fairly often and now there's a solution! I really like that you've left a lot of the different factors open to interpretation, so a player and DM can work things out together to really allow people to tune these changes to their own personal tastes.

One thing I'd say is that your claim that the all spells known spellcasting option renders the savvy preparation ability useless isn't 100% accurate. Even with full knowledge of your spell list, you could still technically use savvy preparation to prepare some spells with metamagic baked in. Unless you intend to remove savvy preparation completely for that system, I'd reword that sentence to mention the metamagic options.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

What happened to the Hellknight beguiler archetype?

EDIT: Nevermind, different doc.


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SylverFox wrote:
I get the increase of the skills per level, but what prompted the change from summon nature's ally to witch patrons?

Ever since the change from the pack companions to the single magical beast companion I felt that the summon spells weren't a great fit for the feel of the new version of the elusive wildling. I was considering nature-type domain spells, but felt the nature patrons were a bit of a better fit for the mysterious aspects of the wildling's magic. Also, if somebody still wants the summoning options, the animals patron is a good option since it has many of those spells.

SylverFox wrote:
One thing I'd say is that your claim that the all spells known spellcasting option renders the savvy preparation ability useless isn't 100% accurate. Even with full knowledge of your spell list, you could still technically use savvy preparation to prepare some spells with metamagic baked in. Unless you intend to remove savvy preparation completely for that system, I'd reword that sentence to mention the metamagic options.

That's an aspect I hadn't thought about. I'll rework that point to call out the potential for a beguiler to still use savvy preparation for metamagic as you said.

Kryzbyn wrote:

What happened to the Hellknight beguiler archetype?

EDIT: Nevermind, different doc.

Glad you found it. I try to keep all the Golarion specific options in the Beguilers of the Inner Seas document.


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ertw wrote:
SylverFox wrote:
One thing I'd say is that your claim that the all spells known spellcasting option renders the savvy preparation ability useless isn't 100% accurate. Even with full knowledge of your spell list, you could still technically use savvy preparation to prepare some spells with metamagic baked in. Unless you intend to remove savvy preparation completely for that system, I'd reword that sentence to mention the metamagic options.
That's an aspect I hadn't thought about. I'll rework that point to call out the potential for a beguiler to still use savvy preparation for metamagic as you said.

I've now updated the beguiler conversion document to reflect this change.


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JammyPanda wrote:

A few days ago the topic came up on /pfg/ of how you could make the mesmer from Guild Wars 2 in pathfinder and I suggested that this conversion might make a good baseline for it. For those unfamiliar the mesmer specializes in using illusions both offensively and defensively. I put together a basic outline and I was hoping to get some thoughts:

Order of the Shattered Looking Glass

1st level order power would grant a mirror image-like spell-like ability (useable 3+Int times per day), but as he leveled up they would become more "real." The Beguiler would get +1 to attack and damage rolls which would increase by +1 at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 (like a Slayer's studied target). Maybe this bonus would have a maximum equal to the number of images present.

7th level order power would allow the beguiler to shatter any number of these images as a swift action to do a fixed amount of damage to everybody the Beguiler threatens (Reflex for half). Maybe at higher levels it could impose a negative condition on those in the area instead of the damage.

13th level order power would allow some of the images to actually make attacks. One attack at Beguiler's highest BAB at 13th level, a second attack at highest BAB-5 at 16th level (as long as two images exist), a third attack at highest BAB-10 at 19th level (as long as three images exist).

Not sure about the capstone order power yet.

Would this idea be interesting to anybody?

Sorry about the wait, but I just had time to sit down and go over this. I think I could use parts of this with the new archetype I mentioned on the 18th. I'm still in the process of drawing up the outline, but I'll try to post the basic idea over the next few days after I've had a chance to map it all out.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

OMG yes please! I've been trying to homebrew a mesmer for a couple years, but couldn't get the illusory pets to feel right.

Would be super cool. May have to give them diminished casting, though, and maybe some bumps to melee ability.


ertw wrote:
JammyPanda wrote:

A few days ago the topic came up on /pfg/ of how you could make the mesmer from Guild Wars 2 in pathfinder and I suggested that this conversion might make a good baseline for it. For those unfamiliar the mesmer specializes in using illusions both offensively and defensively. I put together a basic outline and I was hoping to get some thoughts:

Order of the Shattered Looking Glass

1st level order power would grant a mirror image-like spell-like ability (useable 3+Int times per day), but as he leveled up they would become more "real." The Beguiler would get +1 to attack and damage rolls which would increase by +1 at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 (like a Slayer's studied target). Maybe this bonus would have a maximum equal to the number of images present.

7th level order power would allow the beguiler to shatter any number of these images as a swift action to do a fixed amount of damage to everybody the Beguiler threatens (Reflex for half). Maybe at higher levels it could impose a negative condition on those in the area instead of the damage.

13th level order power would allow some of the images to actually make attacks. One attack at Beguiler's highest BAB at 13th level, a second attack at highest BAB-5 at 16th level (as long as two images exist), a third attack at highest BAB-10 at 19th level (as long as three images exist).

Not sure about the capstone order power yet.

Would this idea be interesting to anybody?

Sorry about the wait, but I just had time to sit down and go over this. I think I could use parts of this with the new archetype I mentioned on the 18th. I'm still in the process of drawing up the outline, but I'll try to post the basic idea over the next few days after I've had a chance to map it all out.

Awesome! I'm excited!


ertw wrote:

Still haven't had much time to work it out properly, but I have a general idea of where I want to take the arcane hand. Essentially I'm looking at replacing false theurgy (which will be moving over to a brigand talent) with a modified casting option; essentially the beguiler would have two altered modes of casting which I've given the working titles of subtle and spectacular casting.

When casting a spell subtly, the beguiler would weave the verbal and somatic components of her spell into normal conversation through whispered incantations and subtle gestures; this would render the spell undetectable by spellcraft and automatically qualify for cloaked casting bonuses. The downside to subtle casting is that it would lower the DC and CL of the spell by -2, although enchantment spells would not be subject to this penalty.

A spell which is cast spectacularly is one in which the beguiler makes great efforts to deceive the observer of the power of the spell which she is casting through bombastic incantation and wild gesticulations. Spells cast in this way would gain a +1 bonus to DC and CL; the bonus would increase to +2 for illusion spells and shadow subschool spells would have a 20% increase in their effects "realness" on a successful save.

Would these basically act like metamagic feats?

ertw wrote:
I'm dropping in to announce that I've updated the main conversion document. This update doesn't include the changes for the arcane hand or theurgic brigand, but does have some minor tuning for the elusive wildling (in light of Paizo's feyspeaker druid archetype) as well as a new series of variant rules for a few items that people have consistently complained about regarding my conversion including options for returning the beguiler to an all spells known casting mechanic (with significantly shortened spell list) and options for beguilers that don't require the organization of the beguilers' guild.

I almost always see one of those two reasons given when people want to play a beguiler that but doesn't like your take on it, so I think this is really great since it'll open up the conversion to a wider audience. I think Sylver hit the nail on he head that approaching these rules as suggestions was a stroke of genius since it lets people adjust it to their expectations of a pathfinder beguiler.


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Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Would these basically act like metamagic feats?

No, they won't increase spell level or casting time. They also can't be used in conjunction with metamagic feats until level 20. You can check it out now because...

I just updated the main conversion document with the arcane hand and theurgic brigand updates. Changes include:

  • False theurgy replaced by artful invocation ability allowing a beguiler to cast subtly and spectacularly.
  • Stealspell replaced by spell mimic ability allowing a beguiler to memorize a small number of spells that she has observed and prepare them using savvy preparation.
  • New brigand talents: pidgin adept, and social status.
  • New advanced talents: false theurgy, and stealspell.
  • New piece of beguiler equipment: witchfire essence.


ertw wrote:
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Would these basically act like metamagic feats?

No, they won't increase spell level or casting time. They also can't be used in conjunction with metamagic feats until level 20. You can check it out now because...

I just updated the main conversion document with the arcane hand and theurgic brigand updates. Changes include:

  • False theurgy replaced by artful invocation ability allowing a beguiler to cast subtly and spectacularly.
  • Stealspell replaced by spell mimic ability allowing a beguiler to memorize a small number of spells that she has observed and prepare them using savvy preparation.
  • New brigand talents: pidgin adept, and social status.
  • New advanced talents: false theurgy, and stealspell.
  • New piece of beguiler equipment: witchfire essence.

Awesome, I'll look the changes over and post my thoughts after discussing them with the group.


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Love, love, LOVE witchfire essence! I love the idea of creating chaos by throwing a bottle of invisible fire through the window of my enemy's hideout.

Social status is a cool tool for a theugic brigand in an urban campaign and would probably make her a great asset to a theif-based party by giving them a legitimate face.

Pidgin adept sounds really cool. Maybe something interesting in a seafaring-type campaign when setting up trade in new lands filled with foreign cultures.

I like the tradeoffs of artful invocation, they basically let you tailor your spellcasting to the situation and the ability to learn spells for the long term with spell mimic definitely pulls up the power level of the Arcane Hand due to massively increased versatility.

Overall I really like the changes and I'm really excited to see your new ideas based on JammyPanda's ideas.


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So the changes to the Arcane Hand seem like a decent increase to its power level. In particular the spell mimic brings some good, long term versatility to the Beguiler which isn't matched by anything save the Tomebound Beguiler's capstone. Stealspell was nice, but it didn't give you anything beyond the one combat you used it on. Artful invocation power is a nice flavorful option to tune your casting to its purpose.

We like the new brigand talents, but that's pretty expected since they're mostly drawn from earlier Beguiler abilities. Pidgin adept seems super situational. I don't think those situations would come up often enough to justify taking it, especially since a Theurgic Brigand can take the tongues spell.

Witchfire sounds like fun, not much more to say about that.


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Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Pidgin adept seems super situational. I don't think those situations would come up often enough to justify taking it, especially since a Theurgic Brigand can take the tongues spell.

Thanks for you comments. I see your point about pidgin adept being situational, but there are probably campaigns (like the type SylverFox mentioned) where it'd be useful. I figured that it doesn't hurt to have it as an option for those who want a less spell-based or supernatural type of linguistic facility.


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Oh, I forgot to mention I updated the conversion document again to include a new alchemical substance: Writ of Obedience.


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ertw wrote:
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Pidgin adept seems super situational. I don't think those situations would come up often enough to justify taking it, especially since a Theurgic Brigand can take the tongues spell.
Thanks for you comments. I see your point about pidgin adept being situational, but there are probably campaigns (like the type SylverFox mentioned) where it'd be useful. I figured that it doesn't hurt to have it as an option for those who want a less spell-based or supernatural type of linguistic facility.

Alright, I can follow that. I guess pidgins don't waste spell slots if you're going to be dealing with a lot of people without common language. It'd also have an edge in an antimagic field :p

ertw wrote:
Oh, I forgot to mention I updated the conversion document again to include a new alchemical substance: Writ of Obedience.

I really like that. I can totally see my beguiler slipping that into a noble's drink ten minutes before trying to charm him. One question: the description seems like it has all the trappings of a poison, but it's never called out as such expressly. Was this on purpose? How would a person with immunity to poison react to a dose of the Writ?


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I really like that. I can totally see my beguiler slipping that into a noble's drink ten minutes before trying to charm him. One question: the description seems like it has all the trappings of a poison, but it's never called out as such expressly. Was this on purpose? How would a person with immunity to poison react to a dose of the Writ?

It was originally designed as a poison, but I shifted it over to an alchemical mixture while writing it up. I hadn't been thinking about things like poison immunity. I'll have to give that a bit of thought.


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Alright I've uploaded a new version of the conversion document that adds the following to the writ of obedience's description:

Quote:
While this substance acts like a poison in many ways, it is not affected by any abilities relating to poisons and their use.

On another subject: I've been considering adding a series of templates akin to those from Path of War to the variant rules section to give beguiler-like options to existing classes. I have a vague idea of which classes I'd like to include, but I'd like some input from people here:

What kind of classes would you like to see get some beguiler-like options? What kind of options/features would you like to see exported in this way?


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ertw wrote:

On another subject: I've been considering adding a series of templates akin to those from Path of War to the variant rules section to give beguiler-like options to existing classes. I have a vague idea of which classes I'd like to include, but I'd like some input from people here:

What kind of classes would you like to see get some beguiler-like options? What kind of options/features would you like to see exported in this way?

Definitely the slayer and rogue. You could use the stygian slayer and eldritch scoundrel archetypes as a base as both are pretty interesting ideas that were IMHO poorly executed. Features would definitely include spellcasting (4th level casting for slayer, 6th level casting for rogue) and maybe access to order powers coming into effect at a reduced rate.


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Penumbral Shadow wrote:
ertw wrote:

On another subject: I've been considering adding a series of templates akin to those from Path of War to the variant rules section to give beguiler-like options to existing classes. I have a vague idea of which classes I'd like to include, but I'd like some input from people here:

What kind of classes would you like to see get some beguiler-like options? What kind of options/features would you like to see exported in this way?
Definitely the slayer and rogue. You could use the stygian slayer and eldritch scoundrel archetypes as a base as both are pretty interesting ideas that were IMHO poorly executed. Features would definitely include spellcasting (4th level casting for slayer, 6th level casting for rogue) and maybe access to order powers coming into effect at a reduced rate.

I agree these two definitely need to be in there. IIRC I suggested a potential slayer archetype in this thread a while ago, but nothing ever came of it. As for other options that might be less obvious: an alchemist/investigator archetype could be pretty interesting, you could do something with another arcane class to teach them some of your beguiler tricks (though you might want to stay away from spontaneous casters since their innate magic might be hard to gel with beguiler training and modification), mesmerist seems like an obvious one. If you're willing to go more afield into DSP's portfolio, I'd love to see your take on a beguiler inspired dread, harbinger or stalker.


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SylverFox wrote:
If you're willing to go more afield into DSP's portfolio, I'd love to see your take on a beguiler inspired dread, harbinger or stalker.

F&~& yes, I'd love to see psionic or initiating beguilers.


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Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Definitely the slayer and rogue. You could use the stygian slayer and eldritch scoundrel archetypes as a base as both are pretty interesting ideas that were IMHO poorly executed. Features would definitely include spellcasting (4th level casting for slayer, 6th level casting for rogue) and maybe access to order powers coming into effect at a reduced rate.
SylverFox wrote:
I agree these two definitely need to be in there. IIRC I suggested a potential slayer archetype in this thread a while ago, but nothing ever came of it.

Slayer and rogue are 100% on the list acting as enforcers and agents for the guild.

SylverFox wrote:
As for other options that might be less obvious: an alchemist/investigator archetype could be pretty interesting, you could do something with another arcane class to teach them some of your beguiler tricks (though you might want to stay away from spontaneous casters since their innate magic might be hard to gel with beguiler training and modification), mesmerist seems like an obvious one.

I do have some thoughts for wizard and cleric options. Alchemist is one I hadn't considered. I'll have to think on the best way to incorporate that idea. Mesmerist I'm not crazy about simply because of the tendency for overlap between the two classes.

JHeats wrote:
SylverFox wrote:
If you're willing to go more afield into DSP's portfolio, I'd love to see your take on a beguiler inspired dread, harbinger or stalker.
F%&* yes, I'd love to see psionic or initiating beguilers.

I'm on the fence about these options. I'm not super familiar with the psionics and Path of War subsystems, so it might be hard for me to balance. I'm also a little wary of building around other third party properties; some players may have trouble convincing their GMs to allow the beguiler because it's homebrew and adding other 3PPs into the mix won't necessarily make it easier. I'll still keep it in mind, but I won't guarantee anything.


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ertw wrote:
I do have some thoughts for wizard and cleric options.

Cleric seems a strange choice, but I'm kind of excited to see what you do with it.

ertw wrote:
Alchemist is one I hadn't considered. I'll have to think on the best way to incorporate that idea.

You can't go wrong with poisons thematically (even if they're not typically very strong in the mid or late game). Maybe something like the Gloom Chymist's gloom bombs, but triggering an effect like shatterglass or witchfire. I figured with your new flair for alchemical mixtures you might have some good ideas.

ertw wrote:
Mesmerist I'm not crazy about simply because of the tendency for overlap between the two classes.

I guess I can see that.

ertw wrote:
I'm on the fence about these options. I'm not super familiar with the psionics and Path of War subsystems, so it might be hard for me to balance. I'm also a little wary of building around other third party properties; some players may have trouble convincing their GMs to allow the beguiler because it's homebrew and adding other 3PPs into the mix won't necessarily make it easier. I'll still keep it in mind, but I won't guarantee anything.

As long as you're posting ideas here or playtesting them, I think plenty of people would be willing to help you with any balance concerns you have. As for stacking homebrew and 3PPs, as long as it's an optional rule and not an integral part of the conversion I don't think many people would have problems just saying yes to the beguiler but no to the initiating or manifesting options (or even no to the whole template system).


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SylverFox wrote:
ertw wrote:
I'm on the fence about these options. I'm not super familiar with the psionics and Path of War subsystems, so it might be hard for me to balance. I'm also a little wary of building around other third party properties; some players may have trouble convincing their GMs to allow the beguiler because it's homebrew and adding other 3PPs into the mix won't necessarily make it easier. I'll still keep it in mind, but I won't guarantee anything.
As long as you're posting ideas here or playtesting them, I think plenty of people would be willing to help you with any balance concerns you have. As for stacking homebrew and 3PPs, as long as it's an optional rule and not an integral part of the conversion I don't think many people would have problems just saying yes to the beguiler but no to the initiating or manifesting options (or even no to the whole template system).

I suppose you're right. As I said, I'll keep an open mind about it.


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SylverFox wrote:
As long as you're posting ideas here or playtesting them, I think plenty of people would be willing to help you with any balance concerns you have. As for stacking homebrew and 3PPs, as long as it's an optional rule and not an integral part of the conversion I don't think many people would have problems just saying yes to the beguiler but no to the initiating or manifesting options (or even no to the whole template system).

I'd definitely be willing to offer crits and suggestions for these.


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Oh and if you do a harbinger archetype, please please please make charisma its initiating ability.


JHeats wrote:
Oh and if you do a harbinger archetype, please please please make charisma its initiating ability.

LOL seconded!


SylverFox wrote:
JHeats wrote:
Oh and if you do a harbinger archetype, please please please make charisma its initiating ability.
LOL seconded!

Am I missing a joke here? I was leaning towards including the harbinger with the slayer and fighter which would gain 4-level Int based prepared casting.


ertw wrote:
SylverFox wrote:
JHeats wrote:
Oh and if you do a harbinger archetype, please please please make charisma its initiating ability.
LOL seconded!
Am I missing a joke here? I was leaning towards including the harbinger with the slayer and fighter which would gain 4-level Int based prepared casting.

It's a reference to the fact that the DSP dev that wrote the harbinger often posts in the pathfinder thread on 4chan and insists that he'll never make a harbinger that runs on charisma (even though many feel that the harbinger's whole schtick makes more sense tied to charisma than intelligence).


ertw wrote:
SylverFox wrote:
JHeats wrote:
Oh and if you do a harbinger archetype, please please please make charisma its initiating ability.
LOL seconded!
Am I missing a joke here? I was leaning towards including the harbinger with the slayer and fighter which would gain 4-level Int based prepared casting.

Piggybacking on what JHeats said, a Cha-based harbinger makes more sense as PoW:E lays the class out. I actually think a beguiler archetype for the harbinger makes a lot of sense as an Int-based caster like you're suggesting.


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Quick tease of the templates I'm working one:

Beguiler Class Template Descriptions:

Deceptive Acolyte: These cunning spellcasters find beguilers to be natural allies, a relationship that affords them access to the beguilers' expanded portfolio of magic. Empowered by divine or otherworldly forces, the deceptive acolyte is a class template for the cleric, druid, and witch classes.

Ghastly Enforcer: A basic facility with a beguiler's power makes these fearsome combatants all the more equipped to defend the guild and enforce its will when needed. The ghastly enforcer is a class template for the fighter, harbinger, and slayer classes.

Guild Envoy: Their facility with their own arcane or psionic powers have prompted the guild to impart knowledge of some important abilities to these powerful allies. The guild envoy is a class template for the arcanist, dread, and wizard.

Stygian Saboteur: Masters of the strange, shadowy alchemy practiced by beguilers, they are capable of inflicting unexpected afflictions upon their victims. The stygian saboteur is a class template for the alchemist, investigator, and rogue classes.

Trickster Operative: Wielding a limited form of the beguilers' magic, these agents of the guild are nearly as difficult to pin down as a beguiler. The trickster operative is a class template for the bard, rogue, and vigilante classes.


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Really pumped for these options, especially the enforcer and acolyte.


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ertw wrote:

Quick tease of the templates I'm working one:

** spoiler omitted **

Excited to see the details on these!

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