The challenge: Replicate an effect in the bible with the mechanics available to a level 20 wizard.
Can a level 20 wizard create his own plane of existence, then create a human man & woman in a garden filled with animals of his choice?
Can a level 20 wizard cause a world engulfing flood?
Can a level 20 wizard inflict the 7 plagues upon egypt for defying Moses?
Can a level 20 wizard create an army of beings with the versatility of angels?
These effects all occur in the plane that you created and seeded with life.
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A JUDO-Christian God?
It reminds me of the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, and makes me think he is in a grapple with several different opponents at once....and winning. xD
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In order:
1. Yes a wizard can make is own plane of existence and he can make simulacrums of a human and women and simulacrums of animals of his choice.
2. World Engulfing flood... yes but it'd take coordination with a lot of simulacrums of themselves.
3. Again... probably could if he coordinated with enough simulacrums.
4. At the risk of being a broken record Simulacrum can do this (by say... making angels).
So yes... to an extent. (Now if we had 3.0 epic magic and the life seed...)
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He needs to multiclass monk for the saves.
: P
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Fun!
First, this all assumes the Wizard has used his favored tricks for infinite money and immortality, as this will be expensive and time consuming.
1) Greate Create Demiplane and Permanency for the plane. Polymorph Any Object can turn sacks of hair and whatnot into life. For the full Adam, one must cast Fabricate on some dust to turn it into a statue, then cast Stone to Flesh on the statue "a life force or magical energy" available. I don't know what that is, but as part of the spell mechanics it should be allowable. Follow it up by knocking Adam out with Forgetful Slumber, coup de grace, take a rib and "Polymorph Any Object" it into Eve, then bring Adam back with a Wish.
2) When creating the sky with Greater Create Demiplane include sealed but permanent gates to the elemental plane of water. When ready, remove the covers on the gates to "open the windows of heaven." Control Weather can be added for ambiance.
3.1) Polymorph Any Object or Mirage Arcana cast repeatedly for the river of blood, if using an illusion use a bunch of AoEs to kill all the fish.
3.2) Kidnap and dominate a bunch of 5th level casters, make them invisible, then have them all cast Rain of Frogs and concentrate on it all day. For the traditional traditional Midrashic version where it is "Plague of Frog," bring a Froghemoth along (or be a Conjurer 20 and use Summon Froghemoth) and cast all the swarms into its mouth.
3.3-9) Summon Swarm, Summon Swarm, Plague Storm, Plague Storm, Control Weather, Summon Swarm, Darkness (or a preset trick with the demiplane's lighting choice).
3.10) A bunch of summoned or charmed invisible creatures, walking around shanking first born sons. Detect Relations will help in finding them.
4) Constructs, dominated people with a pile of magic items, or actual Angels and Planar Binding.
So a bit more work than Jesus the 9th Level Cleric, but theoretically doable. Although alternatively:
1-4) Modify Memory, Dominate Person to make someone write it all down.
EDIT: well done, Mort!
A wizard not-so-much, though not because the theoretical potential isn't there. The main difficulty they'd run into is with the presumed limits inherent in the Wealth-by-level system combined with their limited number of spells per day - ultimately the God of the Bible has unlimited access to the kind of power the wizard struggles to achieve by 20th level, and can wreck PF's action economy. The wizard'd run out of money, spells, and/or time first.
If the wizard broke those limits, then yes, they could. As Anzyr said, most of it would focus around the creation of simulacra and the effects that simulacra can create. Thus, it wouldn't exactly be the wizard creating those things per se.
If I were attempting to design a "closest-approximation" Judeo-Christian "God-like" figure in Pathfinder, however, I'd do so by taking a Solar as my base creature, applying the Advanced Template a few times, increasing hit dice (for higher amounts of skill points, and nothing else), and granting a slightly modified variant of the Balor Lord and Pit Fiend bonus abilities, apply all the mythic simple templates (but ignoring the mythic ranks that go with them) and grant 10 mythic tiers of Heirophant. I'd also grant said entity about a bajillion orange prism ioun stones to increase the caster level of the effects.
In fact, I recently began compiling a "god template" for just such a fun "thought project" (though I wasn't considering Biblical effects).
Pardon the mess, it's a copy/paste of a work in progress
other gods
HD 25 (gestalt with cleric/oracle; replace with cleric with druid, as appropriate)
darkvision (see in darkness), low-light vision
constant: see alignment (all), detect snares and pits, discern lies, true seeing
at will: aid, animate objects,
blasphemy,
commune, continual flame, create undead,
dimensional anchor, dispel (magic [greater], evil), dominate person
fireball,
hold (monster) [mass], (un)holy aura, holy smite, holy word
imprisonment, invisibility,
magic circle,
persistent image, plane shift, power word (stun)
remove (curse, disease, fear), resist energy, restoration [lesser]
scorching ray, scrying (greater), speak with dead, summon monster VII
telekinesis, teleport [greater] (self+50lbs only), trap the soul
waves of fatigue, wall of fire
7/day: cure critical wounds, see invisibility
3/day: blade barrier, charm (monster) [mass], earthquake, flame strike, heal, permanency,
resurrection, waves of exhaustion
1/day: blasphemy, fire storm, implosion, meteor swarm, restoration [greater], power word (blind, kill), prismatic spray, wish37 29 30
36 26 27darkvision 60, lowlight vision
aura: protective aura
AC +19 natural
22HD, regeneration 15/evil artifacts, evil effects, and evil spells
saves: +4 v. poison, +4 v. evil
uncanny dodge
DR 15/cold iron, epic, and evil
immune energy (acid, cold, electricity, fire), petrification, poison
SR hd+12
speed: 50, fly 150 (good)bonus feats: cleave [great], combat reflexes, deadly aim, dodge, great fortitude, improved initiative, improved sunder, iron will [improved], lightning reflexes, mobility, multi-attack, power attack, quicken spell-like ability, toughness, two weapon fighting [greater, improved], vital strike [improved], weapon focus
skills: appraise, acrobatics, bluff, craft, diplomacy, disguise, escape artist, fly, heal, intimidate, knowledge (arcana, history, nature, nobility, planes, religion), perception, sense motive, spellcraft, stealth, survival, use magic device; +8 perception
languages: abyssal, celestial, draconic, infernal; truespeech; telepathy 100 ft.
SQ: change shape (alter self), vorpal strike (any slashing weapon), whip mastery (light weapon/lethal damage)
+5 full plate, +5 dancing disrupting (un)holy vorpal greatsword/warhammer, +5 composite longbow (automatically creates a slaying arrow of your choice when drawn; needs no ammunition); double treasuremaster of souls: as a standard action, you can slay a living creature within 30 ft. (fortitude DC 10+1/2 HD+CHA mod negates); whenever you kill a creature, you gain the effect of a heal spell, the body of any creature you slay (including in this manner) immediately transforms into any combination of 8 HD of outsider under your control, so long as the creature or creatures is not above CR 8, and the souls of the creature can be turned into a ghost under your control (maximum number of controlled ghosts equal to your charisma modifier plus your hit dice). You can free or destroy ghosts you no longer want as a full-round action (either turns them into petitioners of their alignment, but destroying them eliminates their memories and personality).
master of magic: you gain 60 levels of spell-like abilities of 1st-4th level at will; you gain 60 levels of spell-like abilities of 5th-8th level (9/day each); you gain two 9th level spell-like abilities (1/day each)
And yes, at it's base it's just a solar/balor/pit fiend with the Balor Lord/Duke templates applied and modified slightly. Haven't gotten 'round to the mythic templates, yet. I was also working on a more powerful version in another thread of mine. I'm considering if/when to integrate the two.
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Brings new meaning to the term "god-wizard." :D
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As Mort showed, it's all pretty doable (if you use a Mythic wizard it's even more so). I think it's kinda amusing in that it makes some of the gaming world's most powerful wizards look unimaginative by comparison.
Now I like to think that all the big immortal wizards out there actually are running around as gods on their own ginormous demiplanes, and futzing around with the written campaign worlds of their origin as a kind of vacation.
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I wasn't aware that Christianity had a Judo god running around. Could a level 20 Wizard replicate his skills? Depends on how seriously he took his grappling classes.
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I wasn't aware that Christianity had a Judo god running around. Could a level 20 Wizard replicate his skills? Depends on how seriously he took his grappling classes.
I'd suggest that he take at least ten levels of eldritch knight to get there instead of straight 20th level wizard. Better base attack bonus.
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I wasn't aware that Christianity had a Judo god running around.
Genesis 32:22-32. God wrestles with Jacob. Unsurprisingly, he wins. Now we don't know what Jacob was, but there's no obvious indication that I can remember to suggest he's a Tetori monk. And it takes God all night to put him down, suggesting that it's not a walkover.
Given a few simple buffs like Bull's Strength and Mage's Transformation, he should be able to win. Use Limited Wish to get Paragon Surge and he can get Improved Grapple.
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Jacob probably wrestled an avatar. At least an avatar has less that 100 levels.
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The challenge: Replicate an effect in the bible with the mechanics available to a level 20 wizard.
Can a level 20 wizard create his own plane of existence, then create a human man & woman in a garden filled with animals of his choice?
Can a level 20 wizard cause a world engulfing flood?
Can a level 20 wizard inflict the 7 plagues upon egypt for defying Moses?
Can a level 20 wizard create an army of beings with the versatility of angels?
These effects all occur in the plane that you created and seeded with life.
Yes.
Although I'd rule it would take billions of years. It takes time for the elements to obey.
Fun!
First, this all assumes the Wizard has used his favored tricks for infinite money and immortality, as this will be expensive and time consuming.
1) Greate Create Demiplane and Permanency for the plane. Polymorph Any Object can turn sacks of hair and whatnot into life. For the full Adam, one must cast Fabricate on some dust to turn it into a statue, then cast Stone to Flesh on the statue "a life force or magical energy" available. I don't know what that is, but as part of the spell mechanics it should be allowable. Follow it up by knocking Adam out with Forgetful Slumber, coup de grace, take a rib and "Polymorph Any Object" it into Eve, then bring Adam back with a Wish.
2) When creating the sky with Greater Create Demiplane include sealed but permanent gates to the elemental plane of water. When ready, remove the covers on the gates to "open the windows of heaven." Control Weather can be added for ambiance.
3.1) Polymorph Any Object or Mirage Arcana cast repeatedly for the river of blood, if using an illusion use a bunch of AoEs to kill all the fish.
3.2) Kidnap and dominate a bunch of 5th level casters, make them invisible, then have them all cast Rain of Frogs and concentrate on it all day. For the traditional traditional Midrashic version where it is "Plague of Frog," bring a Froghemoth along (or be a Conjurer 20 and use Summon Froghemoth) and cast all the swarms into its mouth.
3.3-9) Summon Swarm, Summon Swarm, Plague Storm, Plague Storm, Control Weather, Summon Swarm, Darkness (or a preset trick with the demiplane's lighting choice).
3.10) A bunch of summoned or charmed invisible creatures, walking around shanking first born sons. Detect Relations will help in finding them.
4) Constructs, dominated people with a pile of magic items, or actual Angels and Planar Binding.
So a bit more work than Jesus the 9th Level Cleric, but theoretically doable. Although alternatively:
1-4) Modify Memory, Dominate Person to make someone write it all down.
Great answer! Is there any advantage in creating one's own demiplane that lets the Wizard cause world altering effects (like the flood) easier?
Great answer! Is there any advantage in creating one's own demiplane that lets the Wizard cause world altering effects (like the flood) easier?
Well, the demiplane is smaller, so you need less effort to cover the all of it.
Other than that, it really depends on what you mean or what you're looking for.
The short answer is "yes", as in, "there are plenty of things that a plane could help with" (such as the time trait, basically allowing time to flow twice as fast for you compared to "normal" time outside of it - basically granting you twice as much "time" to do things compared to others), but really how beneficial any given effect is entirely varies with what you're attempting to accomplish.
Each specific miracle would basically need it's own set-up.
The reason Mort's answer works is because,
First, this all assumes the Wizard has used his favored tricks for infinite money and immortality, as this will be expensive and time consuming.
(The thing I alluded to above, with things such as "wealth by level" and "action economy".)
Which, as we can see from Laz' posts, most people wouldn't accept in a game.
The question is, by RAW, could a wizard pull it off? Sure. But the amount of time and pre-planning it would take would be ludicrous.
It would require eons of creating demiplanes, carefully controlling all that goes on within, planning for ages of human history, carefully crafting cities like Sodom and Gomorrah, and ensuring they descend into debauchery on a pretty tight schedule, so that your very-nicely-timed chained mass meteor swarms/fabricate spells (and specially customized flesh to stone variant flesh to salt - found in the 3.5 book Sandstorm - utilized by your invisible, intangible-but-not-ethereal nearby hand-crafted angel on any back-lookers) would all go off correctly.
Part of the problems you'd run into with the wizard-as-god method include the fact that, in the rules as currently exist, the wizards have worlds with people that can also cast magic. That means that their will can relatively easily be thwarted at many steps along the way, their miracles basically ruined entirely (of course, this could be a great reason to actively silence any such practices...).
If you presume a wizard is the only one, has found immortality/infinite money/etc, and are alone in their ability to master magic, it works much better.
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Magic Jar and Ethereal Jaunt?
So what about the NT stuff? Holy Spirit and impregnating a virgin with divine power? Then existing as both an incarnate human with his power and a non-incarnate concept, and as a spirit at the same time?
1) Wish can probably handle the impregnating - kind of similar to a transmutation effect, really.
2) It doesn't exist in PF, but 3.5 had a ritual that was capable of being performed called Channeling which would effectively allow a creature to incarnate a non-fiend. Some 3rd Edition deities had a power called Avatar, that created a lesser copy of the deity, thus, channeling the avatar could function fairly well. In Pathfinder, it might be more akin to a modified variant of the Simulacra effect, except, instead of a statue of ice and snow, the simulacra is a child of yourself - a kind of clone while the wizard wasn't incarnate itself. This would be the only method I could fathom to come close to such a state. You might be able to pull of something by way of Astral Projection.
Magic Jar and Ethereal Jaunt?
I think this is a joke (in which case it's pretty funny), but it occurs to me that I may be missing something clever, so I'm asking about it.
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I knew this was either a thread that would end badly or evolve into humor depending on who got to it after the OP. Humor won! Huzzah!
A JUDO-Christian God?
It reminds me of the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, and makes me think he is in a grapple with several different opponents at once....and winning. xD
Hiyahhhh!
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So what about the NT stuff? Holy Spirit and impregnating a virgin with divine power? Then existing as both an incarnate human with his power and a non-incarnate concept, and as a spirit at the same time?
Depends on which form of Christianity one ascribes two. While most of the Churches that sprung from the foundings of the Nicaea Creed (Such as Catholicism and its various offshoots) believe in the Concept of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Ghost as one being) others on the other hand believe instead in the Theology of the Godhead stating that the aforementioned thee personages are three separate entities entirely (Such as the Mormans believe)
...whelp, that's my theology lesson for today.
Magic Jar and Ethereal Jaunt?I think this is a joke (in which case it's pretty funny), but it occurs to me that I may be missing something clever, so I'm asking about it.
The impregnating is pretty simple. You don't need a wizard for that. Valeros could manage it, and probably has. Grab a Hat of Disguise and the wings off a dead hippogriff if you can't manage Disguise Self and Minor Image.
Magic Jar allows you to possess the baby, so that's a duality. Ethereal Jaunt gets you to be the Holy Spirit, in that you're not material any more. Trinity sorted.
Now a pedant might argue that yo can't be the Father and the Holy Spirit at the same time, except that it's unclear what physical state the Father is, so their being exactly the same (instead of merely ineffably the same) isn't ruled out. Ineffable isn't a condition listed in the PRD.
Ah. Taking the "impregnating a virgin with holy power" to mean "she was a virgin before she was impregnated" and ignoring the "holy power" part. That was more or less what I thought, otherwise. Thanks!
So if you were a level 20 Wizard watching the progress of the child you implanted in the girl, what spells would you use to make him replicate a Christ-like life?
There's no other casters or Detect magic to foil you, so how would you go about creating a Christ without being discovered?
Invisible ring gates tied to invisible immovable rods. Everywhere. You can get line of effect/sight to almost anywhere. It would also duplicate people "hearing the voice of god" when our wizard forgets to be quiet around his portable holes. :D
So if you were a level 20 Wizard watching the progress of the child you implanted in the girl, what spells would you use to make him replicate a Christ-like life?
There's no other casters or Detect magic to foil you, so how would you go about creating a Christ without being discovered?
consistent maximized Hypnotism on the child while he's growing up.
Reference the invisible ring-gate trick above, the easiest thing is to simply have a semi-permanent zone of silence (this can be done by way of wish-> hallow (to self)+zone of silence targeted so it doesn't escape the ring-gates).
As far as Christ's miracles by way of wizard... hm. Tougher, sort of.
If you've got an army of simulacra you're fine, but presuming no other casters...
Well, Wish, of course, could cover a multitude of sins (or, in this case, miracles).
Create food and water, water walk, control weather, resurrection are all on the menu with that one spell. In fact, from what I can fathom, that'd be pretty much exactly all you'd need. Jesus never did too many miracles in a single day, and the largest, the feeding the five thousand, could be done with the create food and water, which can be accessed by limited wish as well - in fact, many of the smaller miracles could use that spell; the fact that you've got, now, three spell-slots to fill with "miracle replications" means you've got about three times (or more, due to ability bonus spells per day) the number of spell slots as you previously had - that great obviates the need of relying on orange prism ioun stones to augment caster level, though it would take 84 castings of a 20th level caster to actually cover all 5,000 people... though, of course, that would be 5,000 people for a day, which presumes three meals, thus about 15k people at a single meal, which is what most guesstimates of "feeding the five thousand" are (because it was five thousand men... plus women and children).
Of course, if a given would-be-divine-wizard actually crafted a magic trap of create food and water, he could just do that at will.
Alternately, though this is a really strange stretch of the rules, he could create a spell trap that duplicates wish each time he triggers it, and has a reset of "instantaneous" (which only requires access to create wondrous item and the ability to cast wish). It would be expensive - 90,000 gold for being a ninth level spell, and 2,500,000 gold for the expensive material component, for a total of 2,590,000 gold - and time-consuming, at 5,180 days to complete.
(Actually, upon review ^ stuff might not be true. There is a very odd line that RAW makes this just silly and free, thus I'm sure it's not RAI. I'll have to look into it, but you get the idea.)
Regardless, it's probably what you'd want to do in order to create a Christ figure.
If you took a while to do some spell research you could probably grant someone a spell-like ability as an instantaneous transmutation effect. Give the christ figure wish at 3/day with some minor spell effects to duplicate the other miracles at either 5/day or at-will. Done.
You do, though, run into some issues if you try to duplicate the trinity as all members are god. Perhaps this could involve a modified lich ritual to Voldemort your soul into other beings rather than an object as a magic jar effect without a receptacle. Essentially, you place a piece of your soul that you're in constant telepathic contact with regardless of planar boundaries into another being whom you then constantly control yet each part can act quazi-independently and can each have their own personality quirks similar to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit godhead in the Bible. But, it's all the same 20th level wizard.
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It's astoundingly easy with mythic rules. Take divine source at rank 3 and 6 to pick up the Divine subdomain. Boom, now you have miracle as a spell-like ability once per day by 9th tier. Laugh all the way to the bank.
Ah. Taking the "impregnating a virgin with holy power" to mean "she was a virgin before she was impregnated" and ignoring the "holy power" part. That was more or less what I thought, otherwise. Thanks!
She could probably be a virgin afterwards as well, given CLW. Or Heal, or Regenerate, according to your GM.
You could use Ethereal Jaunt to do the impregnation and avoid any difficulties of virginity, but it takes some precision. I'll leave the details to the reader.
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Regenerate would be necessary, as it usually is when a piece of your body is ripped asunder to the point that it will never actually heal naturally.
Ethereal Jaunt is an all or nothing spell, I believe. Either your whole body is in the Ethereal Plane or none of it is. Even if you were to have a force-based 'tool', it still couldn't extend onto the Material Plane as such implements could into the Ethereal.
If ethereal jaunt gives you a clear line of sight, though, you could potentially cast a force effect into the appropriate area.
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Force effects and abjurations affect an ethereal creature normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can't attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things.
So, not really. I think Dust Form might actually do it, though.
At one round per level, he'd have to be fast! (And lucky, considering the whole "50% damage" thing, if that can logically be applied beyond the base damage... but if not, he's unfortunately still "considered incorporeal" which... eh, you've already covered.)
Either way, Regeneration seems like it would probably have to be involved.
Not really. The spell doesn't say what happens if you take something into the Ethereal plane and drop it. Presumably it reverts to material when the spell expires, and does so in its current location. So assuming you can place said material accurately enough, and the space for it is considered to be empty, you're OK.
Might be a little undignified, of course.
Not really. The spell doesn't say what happens if you take something into the Ethereal plane and drop it. Presumably it reverts to material when the spell expires, and does so in its current location. So assuming you can place said material accurately enough, and the space for it is considered to be empty, you're OK.
Might be a little undignified, of course.
First, I was actually specifically responding to Cerebus Seven (i.e. agreeing that C<X>W and Heal wouldn't cover it to "regain virginity", physically speaking) and the Dust Form spell he linked above, instead of Ethereal Jaunt.
Second, that's a lot of presumptions, and also requires a lot of assistance from the woman (and her anatomy) in question by holding very still... if it counts as unoccupied space which, with the game rules, is very unlikely. Plus, that aim would have to be rather incredible, because, frankly, I'm not sure if it would or wouldn't continue "forward", round up into its own little ball, or "wiggle" itself scattered due to the movement of the cells, or something else altogether in a place with no gravity and no air... it would require a deep understanding of the nature of the ethereal plane, as well as lots of practice. And he'd still have to be pretty fast. And there's always the chance that it wouldn't take.
Given that ethereal jaunt is a transmutation, it's got some precedent, though.
Point being that Ethereal Jaunt is a very "iffy" thing in this case (because of all the guesses and presumptions), and there are better methods for making her a virgin... although few of those other methods prevent her from losing the "never having known a man" kind of virginity.
If you really wanted, I could see using polymorph any object on her to cause her to physically "give off" an egg, get some sperm, fabricate them together, and polymorph any object the zygote back into her (especially if she was under a deep slumber effect, or similar) to ensure she's got both forms of virginity intact while pregnant; as the second polymorph any object would override the first, thus you wouldn't have to worry about some strange remaining mutation, but the question, to me, is if the second polymorph any object would leave her eternally pregnant with an eternal zygote... or would you be able to make it so the spell was refined to the fact that her body was pregnant and actively functioning normally for that pregnancy. I wonder, then, if you could undo the PaO effect for the birth-time to keep her a physical virgin even after she gives birth.
Probably worth mentioning that the game originally (or, original versions of the game) drew upon the Bible as a source for various spells and magical effects, and even magical items.
Sticks to snakes, and all that.
So, duh. Of course spellcasters in the game can replicate the feats of the Judeo-Christian god. The game was intentionally designed to do so.
This is the worst idea for a thread in the history of bad threads.
Oh my, no. There are far worse ideas. This one is just very potentially problematic due to the possible offense it may generate.
Regenerate would be necessary, as it usually is when a piece of your body is ripped asunder to the point that it will never actually heal naturally.
So let me get this straight. Regeneration revirginates? Oh, the implications...
This is the worst idea for a thread in the history of bad threads.Oh my, no. There are far worse ideas. This one is just very potentially problematic due to the possible offense it may generate.
Not -may-. It's very offensive.
But nobody cares about offending Christians. Right?
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Regenerate would be necessary, as it usually is when a piece of your body is ripped asunder to the point that it will never actually heal naturally.So let me get this straight. Regeneration revirginates? Oh, the implications...
Bad news for regenerating Jews.
So what about the NT stuff? Holy Spirit and impregnating a virgin with divine power? Then existing as both an incarnate human with his power and a non-incarnate concept, and as a spirit at the same time?
This one is simple:
They are three different entities.God the father (original)
God the son (Clone)
and the holy spirit (an underling/summon)
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No.
The area of effect of greater create demiplane cast at 20th level is 400 10' cubes. About the size of a small office building.
God created the earth and heavens. God has an infinite area of effect. An army of 20th level wizards are like tiny ants compared to God.