Casters vs Martials: The Errata Edition


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Renegadeshepherd wrote:

Here's food for thought...

Lets say for the sake of arguement and discussion that the insane DM actually let u buy, for one mission, a fighter that was the same level 10 as yourself for a paultry 1000 gold. FYI the same cost as the animate dead. In my opinion the DM is being VERY nice here.

But which would u rather have between another 10th level fighter OR 20 HD of undead of UR choice?

Yeah I thought so. The sheer amount of bodies being thrown at the martials is overwhelming and even if that wasn't bad enough the caster in the back is still casting whatever he wants while ur bashing skulls. Shoot, ill give u TWO level 10 fighters for that 1000, now what? It's closer to equal now but animate dead probably still wins because those undead stay urs for a lot longer.

Conclusion: martials stink, thanks paizo

1000 gp for a few days labor is actually pretty good pay.

Or, you know, the 10th level fighter could sit in town and make 5 gp a day, or be a caravan guard having to fight off hill giants and ogre raiders for 5 gp a day. Or tromp around town on patrol for 1 gp a day.

So, no, I don't think 1000 gp is overpriced for long term salary and wages.

And remember if you want skeletons and zombies of 'whatever monster you need best' you have to go FIND those bodies and monsters, and might even have to kill them. While you're out wandering around trying to find the perfect hydra, the fighter is doing other stuff, too. So, just like there are no rules for 'finding mercenaries', there are no rules for 'finding just the corpses I want to animate'.

So, realistically, the wizard is going to bite the bullet, make do with humanoid corpses that are easy to come by, raised in a desecrated area, with maybe a template or two added.

I'd happily take some level 10 guys who don't want to be stuck with caravan guard duty over that sort of thing.

As for WBL abuse...hey, while the wizard is out devoting time to doubling his wbl from crafting, the fighter is out adventuring during that same time period, and profiting more then 500 gp/day. Or maybe he's prize fighting in the gladiatorial games for five figure prizes. Two can play that game of time maximization.

If the DM is letting the wizard bend him over backwards and hosing the fighter, it's the DM's fault. The fighter has stuff he can be doing, too. Sure, it may not be MAGICAL...but he can still do it.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
As for WBL abuse...hey, while the wizard is out devoting time to doubling his wbl from crafting, the fighter is out adventuring during that same time period, and profiting more then 500 gp/day.

I might observe that "don't split the party" became a maxim for a reason.

Last time my fighter separated himself from the apron strings and went adventuring with half the party while the wizard and other half were doing downtime... he lost to a spellcasting foe that the CR system would rate far beneath us.

The wish and resurrection used to clean up the mess kind of cut into profit a small amount.

Now, not getting into major fights while the party is split is a good idea for the wizard too, of course. I suppose one might debate whether it is as important for him as the fighter, but in any case it is a good idea all around, both OOC and IC.


Kudaku wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:
But which would u rather have between another 10th level fighter OR 20 HD of undead of UR choice?
Fun fact: 1 000 GP would actually buy you 40 HD worth of undead, which is the maximum amount a 10th level spellcaster can control (unless he has Revoke Undead) - the price is 25 GP per HD. You'd have to use Desecrate or two Animate Dead spells to reach the cap though.

True but I was only trying to use one spell to dumb down the cater to make the point even more silly.


Aelryinth wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:

Here's food for thought...

Lets say for the sake of arguement and discussion that the insane DM actually let u buy, for one mission, a fighter that was the same level 10 as yourself for a paultry 1000 gold. FYI the same cost as the animate dead. In my opinion the DM is being VERY nice here.

But which would u rather have between another 10th level fighter OR 20 HD of undead of UR choice?

Yeah I thought so. The sheer amount of bodies being thrown at the martials is overwhelming and even if that wasn't bad enough the caster in the back is still casting whatever he wants while ur bashing skulls. Shoot, ill give u TWO level 10 fighters for that 1000, now what? It's closer to equal now but animate dead probably still wins because those undead stay urs for a lot longer.

Conclusion: martials stink, thanks paizo

1000 gp for a few days labor is actually pretty good pay.

Or, you know, the 10th level fighter could sit in town and make 5 gp a day, or be a caravan guard having to fight off hill giants and ogre raiders for 5 gp a day. Or tromp around town on patrol for 1 gp a day.

So, no, I don't think 1000 gp is overpriced for long term salary and wages.

And remember if you want skeletons and zombies of 'whatever monster you need best' you have to go FIND those bodies and monsters, and might even have to kill them. While you're out wandering around trying to find the perfect hydra, the fighter is doing other stuff, too. So, just like there are no rules for 'finding mercenaries', there are no rules for 'finding just the corpses I want to animate'.

So, realistically, the wizard is going to bite the bullet, make do with humanoid corpses that are easy to come by, raised in a desecrated area, with maybe a template or two added.

I'd happily take some level 10 guys who don't want to be stuck with caravan guard duty over that sort of thing.

As for WBL abuse...hey, while the wizard is out devoting time to doubling his wbl from crafting, the fighter is out...

Sit I think u missed my point entirely. 1000 is CHEAP. I double my power for 1000 gold to kill something guarding some treasure that is EASY double digits that value. Even when u divide the treasure by 6 if if we at level 10 got 6K worth of gold or loot I came out ahead in gold, experience, and everything else.

I don't have the numbers for level 10 loot but I bet I'd win that EVERY time. If the math on getting an NPC of the same strength as the party a stage is that easy then the system is broken and I need not worry for I can just hire an army for every problem. But on the other hand if u assume as I did that 1000 for a level 10 fighter was reasonable or underpriced then the caster STILL wins.

And even i have made some math errors and in loot and cost of a level 10 fighter for hire, it's still irrelevant as the caster could do BOTH where the fighter just has a hireling. So again caster wins. Show me something the fighter can do that the caster can't. NOTE: I keep saying caster as there are a handful of classes that can get those undead but that poor martial is just crying in the corner.


Add on: just looked at numbers and LV 10 gold per encounter on fast is 8200 and the wealth the character is expected to have accumulated before hand is 62,000. Yeah I think 1000 for a level 10 fighter is VERY underpriced.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

and yet if you hire him as a soldier with a +15 to his Profession/Soldier check, you only need to pay him 25 gp a week or so.

As for the expenditure/encounter imbalance, that's long been used by the purely pragmatic as a reason not to heal in combat. The encounter will be worth more then 5k, which is enough to raise anyone who dies, so kill the enemy and let the wounded person die, then get out of there with the loot, as opposed to healing someone and maybe losing the encounter.

For your 'don't split the party', I notice you didn't use the example for a spellcaster, who could be trashed by two giants, one with a ready action to hit him with a rock when he starts to cast, and the other just whacking on him...or who could be trashed by another spellcaster also waiting for him.

We're being hypothetical. The fighter will go out with his hirelings if he must, or fight low CR encounters against class-appropriate foes, neh? Aren't you supposed to tailor encounters to the PC?

:) Oh, right, we can only do that for casters. Silly me.

==Aelryinth


Assuming ur right about 25 gold then the game is just stupid at that point. Because then ur adventuring in person is just dumb and not economical. At 25 gold a man a 10th level character with leadership and his 62,000 goldcould hire an entire nation to go sack another nation.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

well, that IS what armies do, right? Except you also have to provide food, clothing, armor, weapons, transport, other supplies, and have something for them to do, otherwise they just sit around and eat up your gold.

62000 gold is hiring men with +5 to Profession soldier for 15 gp a week, you'd get a whopping 4000 men for one week, and then you're out of money and your army goes away.

:P

==Aelryinth


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Level 10 is when you can kill every greek mythological monster with ease, it's a dang shame that a level 10 fighter is just considered a 'caravan guard' thats cheap to hire...


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Aelryinth wrote:
and yet if you hire him as a soldier with a +15 to his Profession/Soldier check, you only need to pay him 25 gp a week or so.

And he'd do an excellent job training your nephew in which end of the sword is the pointy one. That CR-appropriate wizard though? Yeah, that's not in the job description. You can handle that one on your own.

Aelryinth, I'm finding it increasingly hard to take your arguments seriously.


When the wizard is crafting, he crafts for the WHOLE party not just himself.

Because like what gear does a wizard want or need? +6 int item, blessed book, Cloak of Resistance +5. AC items are a waste of time on characters without high-dex or heavy armor.

You know what wizard minions do? Support the WHOLE party.

The amount of spot-light being taken up is being over estimated.


OgreBattle wrote:

Level 10 is when you can kill every greek mythological monster with ease, it's a dang shame that a level 10 fighter is just considered a 'caravan guard' thats cheap to hire...

I find that statement suspect considering Charybdis and Scylla from The Odyssey at CR 13 and 16, respectively.


Aelryinth wrote:

well, that IS what armies do, right? Except you also have to provide food, clothing, armor, weapons, transport, other supplies, and have something for them to do, otherwise they just sit around and eat up your gold.

62000 gold is hiring men with +5 to Profession soldier for 15 gp a week, you'd get a whopping 4000 men for one week, and then you're out of money and your army goes away.

:P

==Aelryinth

no because all i have to do is plunder a city (which would be worth more than 62,000) and i get to recruit another army and just snowball this thing until finally a DM brings CR 20+ creature to smack my army. which made the whole endeavor pointless from step one.

BTW if u took leadership u can add even more ridiculous amounts of men to that army that bring their own stuff. So let us do the math shall we.....

I can have a party of 4 well armed level 10 characters of whatever class mixes to do a job OR i can between the four of em have an army of 10,000+ men (not including summons, charms, etc that casters bring). Which would anyone choose? I mean are u really going to say that in reality u want a 10K value sword instead of a small army or living in a mansion for ur retirement?

And in truth, even if i could only have 1 weeks on pillaging that would still make for a better tale than 1 was of 4 people who slew Smaug the Terrible.

EDIT: One more thing, go be a master summoner and then ur leadership score is higher AND ur summons are actually tough enough to fight real threats to the minions in ur army and it cost u virtually nothing. once again casters win.


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Marthkus wrote:

When the wizard is crafting, he crafts for the WHOLE party not just himself.

Because like what gear does a wizard want or need? +6 int item, blessed book, Cloak of Resistance +5. AC items are a waste of time on characters without high-dex or heavy armor.

You know what wizard minions do? Support the WHOLE party.

The amount of spot-light being taken up is being over estimated.

Yes, but imagine how much faster crafting would go and how many more minions you'd have supporting the party if you had another Wizard (also another 2 free spells per level!) instead of a Fighter!


Anzyr wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

When the wizard is crafting, he crafts for the WHOLE party not just himself.

Because like what gear does a wizard want or need? +6 int item, blessed book, Cloak of Resistance +5. AC items are a waste of time on characters without high-dex or heavy armor.

You know what wizard minions do? Support the WHOLE party.

The amount of spot-light being taken up is being over estimated.

Yes, but imagine how much faster crafting would go and how many more minions you'd have supporting the party if you had another Wizard (also another 2 free spells per level!) instead of a Fighter!

And what if crafting and minion hording doesn't float your boat?

FUN is an important element. Not everyone likes playing support characters.


Marthkus wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

When the wizard is crafting, he crafts for the WHOLE party not just himself.

Because like what gear does a wizard want or need? +6 int item, blessed book, Cloak of Resistance +5. AC items are a waste of time on characters without high-dex or heavy armor.

You know what wizard minions do? Support the WHOLE party.

The amount of spot-light being taken up is being over estimated.

Yes, but imagine how much faster crafting would go and how many more minions you'd have supporting the party if you had another Wizard (also another 2 free spells per level!) instead of a Fighter!

And what if crafting and minion hording doesn't float your boat?

FUN is an important element. Not everyone likes playing support characters.

If you don't like playing a support character, why would you play a fighter?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

well, that IS what armies do, right? Except you also have to provide food, clothing, armor, weapons, transport, other supplies, and have something for them to do, otherwise they just sit around and eat up your gold.

62000 gold is hiring men with +5 to Profession soldier for 15 gp a week, you'd get a whopping 4000 men for one week, and then you're out of money and your army goes away.

:P

==Aelryinth

no because all i have to do is plunder a city (which would be worth more than 62,000) and i get to recruit another army and just snowball this thing until finally a DM brings CR 20+ creature to smack my army. which made the whole endeavor pointless from step one.

BTW if u took leadership u can add even more ridiculous amounts of men to that army that bring their own stuff. So let us do the math shall we.....

I can have a party of 4 well armed level 10 characters of whatever class mixes to do a job OR i can between the four of em have an army of 10,000+ men (not including summons, charms, etc that casters bring). Which would anyone choose? I mean are u really going to say that in reality u want a 10K value sword instead of a small army or living in a mansion for ur retirement?

And in truth, even if i could only have 1 weeks on pillaging that would still make for a better tale than 1 was of 4 people who slew Smaug the Terrible.

EDIT: One more thing, go be a master summoner and then ur leadership score is higher AND ur summons are actually tough enough to fight real threats to the minions in ur army and it cost u virtually nothing. once again casters win.

Except the city has its own 3000 soldiers, and it has walls they can't get over, and it has citizens with caster levels.

Oh, that means if you can roll over cities, it IS very lucrative, as raiders and plunderers have found out over the centuries. If you can't...your army evaporates when you can't pay them.

Good luck with that. Because, yeah, you're just going to 'roll over' a city. just like that!

Of course, that nets you what, one week more pay? And you dont' even have any gear of your own, because you spent it hiring this army. They'll suck all your gold away just marching to your next target, and then you won't have squat. Not even enough funds to animate your next crew of undead.

It takes whole city states and nations to fund armies, and its a huge drain on the economy. 10% of a population under arms is basically the maximum a nation can afford before the economy goes into a tailspin.

So, no, it both does and doesn't work quite the way you think it does.

And your 4 level 10 guys aren't spending their money, they are spending yours. And it's going to go away right quick.

Leadership is naturally in a category of its own, because you don't have to pay them...they might be paying YOU!

I'm not sure what you are getting at with the mansion or the sword. A 10k sword will buy a decent house, but it isn't going to support you for your whole retirement if you sell it. Income streams, baby, income streams.

==Aelryinth


Coriat wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
As for WBL abuse...hey, while the wizard is out devoting time to doubling his wbl from crafting, the fighter is out adventuring during that same time period, and profiting more then 500 gp/day.

I might observe that "don't split the party" became a maxim for a reason.

Last time my fighter separated himself from the apron strings and went adventuring with half the party while the wizard and other half were doing downtime... he lost to a spellcasting foe that the CR system would rate far beneath us.

The cleric, king of the nonsensical tier system, remained with you, and possessed a template that made him more powerful than his level would normally suggest. The bard also remained with you.

Not very indicative of what happens when the fighter is off on 'his own'. Lack of teamwork and tactical stupidity from your mates made that one happen. Not spellcaster superiority.


Kain Darkwind wrote:

The cleric, king of the nonsensical tier system, remained with you, and possessed a template that made him more powerful than his level would normally suggest. The bard also remained with you.

Not very indicative of what happens when the fighter is off on 'his own'. Lack of teamwork and tactical stupidity from your mates made that one happen. Not spellcaster superiority.

Oh, I agree, I remember commenting that things very likely would have been different with different tactics.

(as is often the case)

But I also remember Roon's commenting directly after the fight that the other half of the party would have been able to stomp all over the nature of the encounter itself (tough monster blocking the door out from a cloudkill), and that even equally bad tactics would not have doomed them since a tough monster blocking the door isn't much of a barrier.

I don't know how the tier system is supposed to handle multiclassing (is it?) but just as a guess, (5+1)/2 = 3, no longer king of the tier system. I think it's fair to observe - along the same lines as Roon's comments about Katrina - that if you replace Tycho with Mari it becomes a vastly different and likely much easier encounter too. Heal likely would have had as much to say about ameliorating that situation as arcanistry.


@Aerlyinth: if that city got plundered how they paying for those 3K soldiers? But I digress. Say for the sake of arguement that your right and the city is not easy or profitable, which is possible. I like General MacArthur will hit where they ain't. Somewhere within 1 weeks traveling distance is a dungeon, a dragon horde, a bandit camp, alchemist stores, SOMETHING that is profitable. Just get a large boat from a random merchant on the beach and u made potential 5 digit profit right there.

Also, if someone were to say that every place that I can walk to with 4000 men is defended so well that said 4000 men will have trouble taking what I want, then that is ridiculous. That is well above argriarian or medieval population levels and the dragons and other such creatures are needed just for population control.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Renegade, are you assuming that as 3000 men march all over the countryside someone isn't watching and preparing?

Sure, looting and raiding makes big money. The Vikings did it for century. But when you can't hit an 'easy' target, because they are all waiting for you, or, worse yet, hunting you down with a bigger army, what do you do?

A city can afford an army because of trade and taxes. Right there. You have 9 guys working for every soldier, and they pay his wage and support. Or maybe you have 20 guys, I dunno.

Get rid of the people paying that stuff, and you've got a lump sum of gold that gets burned through really quickly.

That's just how economies work. What you're describing is raiding and brigandry, and that works right up until your victims catch up with you.

==Aelryinth


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Considering the thread is now discussing army logistics I think this thread has been sidetracked for long enough.


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So in the end we came to the conclusion that what? Two spells had been nerfed? (Terrible Remorse and Cold Ice Strike)? I'd say casters have won the errata situation pretty well then.


Personally I'm a little surprised Paragon Surge hasn't been errataed yet - overall I'd say PF's metagame is fairly well balanced compared to 3.5's Punpun etc but PS's potential really, really stands out.


What would an erratum to paragon surge look like? You could change it to be the 3.5 heroics spell and only work for combat feats. But really, it shouldn't be modified. It should just be removed.


Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
What would an erratum to paragon surge look like? You could change it to be the 3.5 heroics spell and only work for combat feats. But really, it shouldn't be modified. It should just be removed.

I meant "errata" in the "crane wing" sense - ie not clarifying the language or fixing spelling mistakes but rather rewriting it completely.


Limiting it to combat only feats would be a significant nerf but it needs something. It probably wouldnt be taken by many then but as of now it is an automatic pick if you are able to cast it.


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I'm hoping they make it a level 1 spell the way it's clearly intended to be - doesn't make sense that it's not available till lvl 5-6.

Elves and humans get their ability score bonuses AND bonus feats at level 1 after all :D


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Yeah, Paragon Surge and Dazing Spell are probably the two things that everyone is still waiting to be addressed. You'd really think something would have been done about Paragon Surge at this point, for all the shenanigans it is directly tied to. It's especially strange when you compare it to the devlopers speed in addressing things like Crane Wing and RAGE-Lance-Pounce, and also the limited controversy over monk flurry/twf rules.

Dark Archive

Quote:
Casters vs Martials: The Errata Edition

Casters win. Fatality!


The Beard wrote:
Quote:
Casters vs Martials: The Errata Edition
Casters win. Fatality!

Frankly I think we all know that casters have too much class to tear out someone's spine it would be like the pansy slap people who can't pull off fatalities use to end the match.


Look at the dismay over archery and the debate that we had if magical, supernatural creatures in a magical, supernatural world with years, decades or centuries of personal experiences using bows with thousands of years of modern use of bow weaponry in their cultures in a world with widespread bow use by all intelligent races and species who had adventured for 10+ Levels worth of experience...

If they could REALLY shoot that many arrows?

I mean, me personally, a skinny-fat man in the 21st Century, I remember using Youth archery bows at Christian summer camp and it was totes difficult, yo.

Too many bullets and arrows in the sky. No way could anybody shoot that many arrows. That isn't realistic at all and furthermore, it makes the magic users feel small in the pants. Nerf pls.


gnomersy wrote:
The Beard wrote:
Quote:
Casters vs Martials: The Errata Edition
Casters win. Fatality!
Frankly I think we all know that casters have too much class to tear out someone's spine it would be like the pansy slap people who can't pull off fatalities use to end the match.

I'd like to refer you to the 3.5 Spell Compendium spell...

Avasculate.

Avasculate Description wrote:
You shoot a black ray of necromantic energy from your outstretched hand, causing your foe to violently purge blood or other vital fluids through his skin.

Grand Lodge

Sorry if i derail some ongoing discussion, because i'm reading the first two pages, what an interesting thread!

I'm not a Errata/FAQ rat, so i cannot help much with the OP question, but i have some opinions to share with some issues pointed out here.

Ravingdork wrote:
Greater Teleport used to be able to get you to the moon or other celestial body with its unlimited range. However, its range suddenly became limited when Paizo came out with the Interplanetary Teleport spell.

For that i prefer my HR: A new spell that i called "Dimensional Port".

The spell creates a permanent "port" that, if it's location is know by the caster, he can teleport to there as if he was very familiar with the place. Of course, the material components are very expensive and take a while to craft, and the casting time is also onerous. The caster who make the "port" can choose who can use it and who can't. With that there is no need of a interplanetary teleport spell.

I myself HRuled that Teleportation spells (apart from dimensional doors) were widely unreliable the less information or familiarity with the place you were teleporting to (unless it has an Teleport Port, and you know it's location).

Edit: I'm about to apply a HR to spellcasting, every time a caster wants to cast a spell in combat, he is considered flat-footed, unless he makes an concentration check with a CD equals to 10+Spell Level (Vigorous Motion). Why is that, because i assume the caster is alert and trying to dodge any projectile or swing directed at him, thus moving vigorously to retain his/her dex bonus. If he fails this check, he doesn't loose the spell, but the casting time increases to another round.

About the metamagic rods, i already Hruled that the caster can't never cast a spell that has a spell slot higher than the highest spell slot he could normally cast. (exceptions is UMD and some itens that says otherwise). Tha prevented metamagic rods abuse in my games.


Icy tomb is another caster ability that shoudl habe been errated long time ago.

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