Anybody tried a dex-druid?

[williamoak]

I'm wondering of the viability. Probably not optimal, but I'd like to make a dex-focused polymorph specialist, and my attempts up till now have not worked (with eldritch knight).

So, here's what I propose:

Druid (? archetype)
Race: ?

1: Weapon finesse
2
3
4
5 Natural Spells
6
7
8
9
10

I'm not terribly familiar with druid builds, so I'm wondering what's best. Any ideas?

[awp832]

Yeah, I tried it a bit. Unfortunately I didn't get to play the character for very long though. My build was focused on the Fire Elemental wild shape, which gives a DEX bonus and the burn special ability, which is nice.

Amulet of Mighty Fists (agile) at earliest opportunity, and just go melee. Power attack or Piranha Strike at your option, Improved Natural Attack, Natural Spell, even two-weapon fighting if you want to.

[williamoak]

I think a grippli might be thematic.

Stats:
Str: 10 Dex: 17 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 16 Cha: 9

1 Weapon Finesse
2
3 Pirhanha Strike
4
5 Natural Spell
6
7
8
9
10

Not sure what else. Fire elemental is definitly a good choice. Wish there was better.

[BigNorseWolf]

Agile maneuvers. Watch a 6 ounce bat judo flip a giant red dragon.

[XMorsX]

Prototype00 has though of an interesting dex druid / maneuver master underfoot adept halfling druid that takes advantage of the air elemental wildshape and is able to trip colossal creatures.

[Azten]

Flame Blade with Dervish Dance is nice. I used to turn into a Bat(Not dire) and fly around using Flame Blade and Produce Flame. I had fun, though I'll admit to not being very effective.

[Reynard_the_fox]

Certainly an Agile AoMF or Dervish Dance will be mandatory for actually dealing damage. Dervish Dance limits your wildshape forms, but an Air Elemental sword tornado is pretty fun to imagine. (Or at earlier levels: sword monkey.)

Look out with Agile Maneuvers - your AC grows when you shrink, but your CMB and CMD shrink when you shrink. There are also limitations on some of the combat maneuvers - I believe tripping doesn't work on creatures two size categories larger than you.

Since you don't need strength, I would see if you can get your Wis up to 17 or 18 after racials to have a capable caster druid. Grab spells like Spit Venom and any nasty touch spells you can find. You'll also make the most amazing scout ever (sans Disable Device).

EDIT: And remember that DCs for abilities (poisons, Whirlwind, etc.) are set using wis!

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Honestly, if you go Str, Dex, or Wisdom, you're set regardless.

Personally, I prefer Dex/Wisdom Monk/Druid. It's pretty outstanding.

[williamoak]

@reynard the fox: as far as I know, you cant use weapons in wildshape...

Otherwise, the reccomendations seem good. Any decent forms other than fire elemental? THere is some question on whether I could get the bonuses of higher-level wildshape without being "huge", the hugeness seems rather disadvantageous.

[awp832]

the answer is; sometimes. The stat bonuses themselves depend on size, other bonuses may not.

for example, you could use Elemental body-4 to take the form of a fire elemental of medium size. You would only have +4 dex, +3 natural armor [not 6 dex, 4 con, 5 natural armor], but you would get the benefit of being immune to bleed damage, critical hits, sneak attacks, and DR 5/-.

[Reynard_the_fox]

williamoak wrote:

@reynard the fox: as far as I know, you cant use weapons in wildshape...

Well, it's probably a DM-call type thing, but as far as I'm aware you don't actually lose proficiencies by wildshaping. You would need a form capable of wielding the weapon like an elemental or ape, and an appropriately sized weapon, but I believe as long as those conditions are met you're OK. (You'd probably want a Polymorphic Pouch to keep various-sized scimitars in, too.)

Chimpanzees in real life use clubs to destroy beehives for honey, so the question becomes less whether animals can use weapons and more whether they can use finesse weapons.

[Azten]

Don't use weapons then. Use Flame Blade. :)

Or drop the scimitar(free action), Wildshape(standard action), and then pick it up(move action).

[awp832]

pretty sure flame blade + dervish dance does not work.

[Snow_Tiger]

XMorsX wrote:

Prototype00 has though of an interesting dex druid / maneuver master underfoot adept halfling druid that takes advantage of the air elemental wildshape and is able to trip colossal creatures.

That sounds really cool! Is it on some thread somewhere? How do I find it?

[Azten]

awp832 wrote:

pretty sure flame blade + dervish dance does not work.

I'd allow it. Says you wield it like a scimitar.

[prototype00]

Snow_Tiger wrote:

XMorsX wrote:

Prototype00 has though of an interesting dex druid / maneuver master underfoot adept halfling druid that takes advantage of the air elemental wildshape and is able to trip colossal creatures.

That sounds really cool! Is it on some thread somewhere? How do I find it?

Quoting from another thread where I answer the same question:

Quote:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ovxd?So-just-brainstorming-a-bit-about-a -monk# 1

Here is where I think about the trip build, mostly can be distilled to:
Quote:

But yes, tripping kind of sucks because you are limited by size (so as a medium character, you can trip large creatures), but:

1.) Wild-shape gets you up to huge eventually
2.) The halfling underfoot adept gets counted as larger for the purpose of trip.
3.) Powerful shape lets you treat yourself as one size larger

So the basic setup is:

1.) Wildshape to get huge size as a huge air elemental (which has a size bonus to dex.
2.) Underfoot adept to get size increases (two, three?)
3.) Powerful shape to get the rest

Then take the maneuver master archetype to get free trip attempts on top of your iterative attacks (and natural attacks), since flurry of maneuvers isn't flurry of blows you can also use natural attacks.

Forgot to mention Fury's Fall and Huge Air Elemental to leverage a pure dex tripping build (great with the halfling's racial dex bonus).

prototype00

[BigNorseWolf]

I don't think flame blade with dervish dance works. Dervish dance replaces your strength with dex, but flame blade doesn't let you use your strength

[Umbranus]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I don't think flame blade with dervish dance works. Dervish dance replaces your strength with dex, but flame blade doesn't let you use your strength

This.

But elementals should be able to use weapons. Some at least. And if you use a fire forged weapon it shouldn't have a big problem with you being (on) fire.

[williamoak]

Umbranus wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I don't think flame blade with dervish dance works. Dervish dance replaces your strength with dex, but flame blade doesn't let you use your strength

This.

But elementals should be able to use weapons. Some at least. And if you use a fire forged weapon it shouldn't have a big problem with you being (on) fire.

While I agree you wont gain any damage bonus from dex, you should at least be able to "finesse" your flame blade with dervish dance. Not necessarily the best idea though.

[Drogos]

I'm playing one in my RotRL game. She's currently 7 Druid/1 Flowing Monk Kobold (started as a Halfling). Next level is a second Flowing Monk and picking up Combat Reflexes (with a 20 Dex before form shifting). I use Imp. Trip and Agile Manuevers since my strength is super tanked due to the Reincarnate into Kobold. Early levels were very rough because she basically was rolling 1d4 with her attacks, but once the Amulet if Agile Fists came online, damage increased greatly. The plan is to use a plant form that grants 60 ft reach (can't recall the plant right now) to maximize oppurtunities for AOOs and hopefully make them flat footed for my Barbarian/Vivisectionist teammate while maintianing full casting goodness.

[soupturtle]

There's no reason an animal-shaped dex druid couldn't work. It won't work as well as a strength type, but it should definitely be able to be a useful party member. A cat has +4 dex and +2 to hit from being tiny with three primary attacks. A deinonychus has no dex bonus but 4 attacks and pounce. With an agile amulet of mighty fists, both could be ok damage dealers.

Since wild shape caps at level 12 (8 for animals), you only really need 8 druid levels (4 for animals) and the shaping focus feats. Your other levels could be in something better at fighting. I'd recommend the urban barbarian, for it's +4 dex controlled rage ability. And you can get a rage power to grow yourself an additional attack. Rogue, ninja or vivisectionist alchemist could also be interesting, as having lots of attacks at full bases attack bonus combines very nicely with sneak attack.

[Majuba]

There's a few limitations involved (especially without the silliness of Agile), but a number of advantages as well:

AC: You'll never be able to get armor that really uses your dexterity score, so no point in Wild Armor - instead you can focus on Bracers of Armor earlier and have a much smoother career.

Attacks: All natural attacks are considered light, even if they get 'two-handed' damage. So the precise form doesn't matter too much (except most give a penalty to dexterity... hmm).

Reflex: Druids have plenty of potential protections from things like fireball, but their poor reflex save makes them good initial targets. Nice boost here.

Skills: Druids tend to use a lot of dexterity based skills, even if they don't have ranks: Acrobatics, Fly, and Stealth, plus occasionally Escape Artist and Ride. Positive modifiers are nice, plus probably much lower armor check penalty when not wild shaped.

Initiative: My druid in Legacy of Fire had a 10 dex, and initiative is where it hurt the most. Druids are *so* versatile, the more/faster actions they can get the better. You might have the perfect form for a combat, but with a low initiative the bad guys get to attack *twice* before you do.

Sounds like fun!

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Drogos wrote:

The plan is to use a plant form that grants 60 ft reach (can't recall the plant right now) to maximize oppurtunities for AOOs and hopefully make them flat footed for my Barbarian/Vivisectionist teammate while maintianing full casting goodness.

Mu Spore? Quickwood?

[williamoak]

At the moment I'm thinking more along the lines of straight druid build. I would stick the the "small" forms for a while (until I get lunge, because tiny forms arent great reach-wise). Any useful archetypes? None of them seem to give better wildshape for this case, but I might have missed something.

And of course, agile AOMF would be a priority. As would a polymorph pouch. Although the idea of a fire elemental wielding a flame blade is pretty sweet, so dervish dance might be interesting.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

I don't think there are really any archetypes that combine effectively with Dexterity builds. They're mostly effecting what class abilities you get, or your Wildshape. :T Nothing from those abilities have really any impact, good or bad, on a Dexterity build.

All I can say, is stick to Air Elemental or Small Animals. Otherwise, Str druid is where it's at for a non-multiclass.

Edit: Then again.. perhaps a druid that could take Vermin Shape might be helpful to you too. I don't recall what archetype has it, but I know there is one out thee.

[Drogos]

Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

Drogos wrote:

The plan is to use a plant form that grants 60 ft reach (can't recall the plant right now) to maximize oppurtunities for AOOs and hopefully make them flat footed for my Barbarian/Vivisectionist teammate while maintianing full casting goodness.

Mu Spore? Quickwood?

Quickwood, that was it. Thanks :D

[williamoak]

How about the one that allows you to become oozes & such? Any decent "small" oozes?

Edit: druids actually get vermin shape as a spell... still, I'm unfamiliar with vermin.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

williamoak wrote:

How about the one that allows you to become oozes & such? Any decent "small" oozes?

Edit: druids actually get vermin shape as a spell... still, I'm unfamiliar with vermin.

I believe that's the Cave Druid archetype.

Oozes are treated as Magical beasts for the purpose of Wildshape and Beast Shape, still Str based. I know the medium sized Carnivorous Crystal is pretty nasty with it's 7d8 Slam. Again, still relying on Strength. Weapon Finesse may work on Natural Weapons? I think they're counted as a Light Weapon... but that with Agile enchant on AoMF and I'd imagine you're gtg.

[williamoak]

Hm... carnivorous crystal would be cool. Wondering if there's anything like that in "small" or "tiny", though I doubt it.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Garden Ooze - Small - 3d8 Slam

I believe there is plenty here.
www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/oozes

[Kirth Gersen]

At first I read the thread title as "Anybody tried a sex druid?" And I thought, these people should check out Doodlebug Anklebiter's goblin Rainbow Coalition druid in my PBP.

[Aeric Blackberry]

Both elemental forms (air and fire), are interesting. The first has better mobility and a nice trick (whirwind), but the second has also a nice land speed and a better punch (because of burn). You will need a protection vs cold (spell, ring) always on to compensate the vulnerability, tough.

Combat reflexes and bigger sizes (reach) are a must in my opinion, if you like the elemental strategy.

You should not fear size problems, because you can always elect smaller forms if required.

Since both forms use slam attack, you can get improved natural attack and get good benefit.

Flyby attack is interesting for the air elemental with vital strike chain.

[williamoak]

I'll admit I'm not interested into the size increases, because it doesnt actually allow me to hit better (since the negative to size stack up fast). Then again, the elemental strategy isnt critical, the ooze one (with a garden ooze or a brain ooze) seems quite interesting as well (lunge is necessary though).

Thinking...thinking...

[Cricket the Sexy Goblin Druid]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

At first I read the thread title as "Anybody tried a sex druid?" And I thought, these people should check out Doodlebug Anklebiter's goblin Rainbow Coalition druid in my PBP.

I'm here to liberate your daughters and seduce your sons.

Goblin druids do it in the woods!

[Atarlost]

I have suggested getting progressively larger scimitars and dervish dancing as an air elemental before. If your GM agrees that the ability to speak Aurran implies the ability to perform verbal components you don't need natural spell. (Handling material spell components is one of the many reasons I favor air over fire. Others include undergrowth, thatched roofs, touch spells towards allies, and 100' perfect flight) You certainly don't need wild speech.