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To start, I'd like to point out that I'm not speaking mechanically, I understand that hitting touch AC can feel OP to some GMs.
What I mean is why do I hear people saying they don't "fit?" In a fantasy setting, why is it "normal" that a Wizard should be able to travel to different planes, stop time, and summon a demon before breakfast? Or a paladin to cut down hordes of evil creatures, and shrug off their attacks like nothing, all under the blessing of their god?
But as soon as one guy shows up with a metal pipe that shoots lead balls, what? Immersion is just shattered so thoroughly that no-one can stand it anymore?
In short, I'd like to hear why folks feel guns, specifically, are out of place in fantasy.
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They're not out of place in fantasy.
They're out of place in a specific sub-genre of fantasy, i.e. heroic and medieval fantasy.
Or at least that's the argument. I like to play high medieval, early renaissance era, at least for my homebrew, so guns have their place, but gunslingers don't and revolvers sure don't.
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I will give you the short answer.
Guns are a newer discovery than typical fantasy worlds have, and some would liken the introduction of the gun akin to making the game into a western, or that the guns would be overpowering. (They are a bit much sometimes with the high crit multiplier and touch attacks)
The fact is, except for Eberron, the Gun is out of place in most of the Brand's settings, including Forgotten Realms that most of the future products seem to be going toward.
I would hope to have something like the Warforged in PF soon, to be honest, along with a dragon kin race.
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I will give you the short answer.
Guns are a newer discovery than typical fantasy worlds have, and some would liken the introduction of the gun akin to making the game into a western, or that the guns would be overpowering. (They are a bit much sometimes with the high crit multiplier and touch attacks)
The fact is, except for Eberron, the Gun is out of place in most of the Brand's settings, including Forgotten Realms that most of the future products seem to be going toward.
I would hope to have something like the Warforged in PF soon, to be honest, along with a dragon kin race.
I'm with you on the warforged, and dragonkin races. I suppose it's a setting thing partially, but guns were around in the form of cannons for plenty of time, I simply don't understand why a hand-held version is considered so alien, that it just doesn't belong.
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I play a lot of different RPGs. Each one has its own particular feel. When I want guns I tend to play other systems. Its an item I just would prefer wasn't prevalent. Although having them in a pirate themed fantasy game seems alright. I would prefer they were a simple fire and forget item. Maybe after all these years I'm starting to come around.
I know you didn't want to talk mechanics but I am going to make a small tangent on the subject. One reason guns make me cringe is their fans. They want them everywhere. They also want them very high powered. Dual six shooters or rifles with clips. No chance to dodge and massive damage. Its like katana fans, they are never satisfied.
I play a lot of different RPGs. Each one has its own particular feel. When I want guns I tend to play other systems. Its an item I just would prefer wasn't prevalent. Although having them in a pirate themed fantasy game seems alright. I would prefer they were a simple fire and forget item. Maybe after all these years I'm starting to come around.
I know you didn't want to talk mechanics but I am going to make a small tangent on the subject. One reason guns make me cringe is their fans. They want them everywhere. They also want them very high powered. Dual six shooters or rifles with clips. No chance to dodge and massive damage. Its like katana fans, they are never satisfied.
As much as I feel guns do have a place in Pathfinder, I do so very much hope I don't get lumped into that group whenever I pop into a thread to say guns aren't an abomination unto this RPG. (Not that I'm saying you are doing that, mind you)
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As much as I feel guns do have a place in Pathfinder, I do so very much hope I don't get lumped into that group whenever I pop into a thread to say guns aren't an abomination unto this RPG. (Not that I'm saying you are doing that, mind you)I play a lot of different RPGs. Each one has its own particular feel. When I want guns I tend to play other systems. Its an item I just would prefer wasn't prevalent. Although having them in a pirate themed fantasy game seems alright. I would prefer they were a simple fire and forget item. Maybe after all these years I'm starting to come around.
I know you didn't want to talk mechanics but I am going to make a small tangent on the subject. One reason guns make me cringe is their fans. They want them everywhere. They also want them very high powered. Dual six shooters or rifles with clips. No chance to dodge and massive damage. Its like katana fans, they are never satisfied.
Not at all. I also want to clarify that I don't think most folks are over the top with guns. I just worry about how easy it could be to give in to some of the over the top demands. One thing Paizo is good about is being conservative about adding in new elements. They seem to slowly introduce things and do so in a way that's palpable to everyone.
I think guns have a place in Pathfinder, as pathfinder is a bit kitchen-sink with its setting, but it doesn't have a place in all games.
Which is fine. Paizo did a good job with providing rules for different levels of gun prevalence, including 'No Guns'. While, obviously, a DM is free to say what is and isn't allowed in their games, that gives the DM greater legitimacy in doing so.
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For a brief, somewhat facetious summary: "GUNS WEREN'T IN TOLKIEN THEY CAN'T BE IN MY PERSONAL FANTASY EVER"
I'm fine with excluding them from specific campaigns. I find it somewhat ridiculous when people refuse to ever play with firearms no matter the setting for purely flavor reasons.
The mechanics are also somewhat awkward, namely reloading and especially touch AC, which in my opinion is better represented as flat-footed AC.
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As a system it's brilliant that Pathfinder supports guns. For Golarion, they fit fine as Numeria has basically robot tech with androids. For other settings that's for them to decide individually.
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Not at all. I also want to clarify that I don't think most folks are over the top with guns. I just worry about how easy it could be to give in to some of the over the top demands. One thing Paizo is good about is being conservative about adding in new elements. They seem to slowly introduce things and do so in a way that's palpable to everyone.As much as I feel guns do have a place in Pathfinder, I do so very much hope I don't get lumped into that group whenever I pop into a thread to say guns aren't an abomination unto this RPG. (Not that I'm saying you are doing that, mind you)I play a lot of different RPGs. Each one has its own particular feel. When I want guns I tend to play other systems. Its an item I just would prefer wasn't prevalent. Although having them in a pirate themed fantasy game seems alright. I would prefer they were a simple fire and forget item. Maybe after all these years I'm starting to come around.
I know you didn't want to talk mechanics but I am going to make a small tangent on the subject. One reason guns make me cringe is their fans. They want them everywhere. They also want them very high powered. Dual six shooters or rifles with clips. No chance to dodge and massive damage. Its like katana fans, they are never satisfied.
Eh, this conservative stuff you speak of must have come about after the spaceships and lasers and plasma canons and missiles and force fields and
.. well, stuff.
well yes that's one place with those things. Not every single module and AP is about space ships and lazors though. Just like every module or AP isn't about gunslingers and Samurai. They keep a spot in the sandbox for everyone instead of opening the flood gates and destroying the entire setting.
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Most people are not aware of when guns actually first came about (or that hand-held single-shot pistols predate full plate armor). So, most people feel guns are out of place, despite how anachronistic it is to have full plate without cannons and handheld firearms also around.
Now, the difference is, gunpowder during the time of most medieval armor was hard to produce and horrible in quality. So the idea of guns piercing medieval armor as well as they do in Pathfinder is also anachronistic. Plus, from a game balance standpoint, troublesome.
Basically, the rules made guns into something they should not have been, when handling them the same as any other weapon would have prevented problems.
What I don't get is why is touch AC such a big deal? Or, are there other mechanical faults with firearms?
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It's the entire system they created to balance out the touch AC that is the problem.
Guns and Sword & Sorcery are different genres. Some people like mixing genres, some don't.
Can you break it down for me a bit more, MJ?
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Can you break it down for me a bit more, MJ?
Spell casters get to target touch AC regularly. In return for this, their BAB is complete trash.
Most of the classes that would be utilizing guns have either 3/4ths or full BAB progression. Full BAB against touch AC gets really stupid really fast, especially if it's coming from a gunslinger. That's my take on it anyway.
Guns can of course be reflavored into death rays or blasty wands if that fits your fantasy better. The Gunslinger as designed is meant to evoke a Western flavor, which I think is the problem most people have.
In mechanics there's likely little difference between a ray specialist sorcerer and a gunslinger (besides that the ray specialist can still pick up any amount of world bending options he wants, but would eventually need to have a lie-down while the gunslinger can blast until he's dead).
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Guns can of course be reflavored into death rays or blasty wands if that fits your fantasy better. The Gunslinger as designed is meant to evoke a Western flavor, which I think is the problem most people have.
In mechanics there's likely little difference between a ray specialist sorcerer and a gunslinger (besides that the ray specialist can still pick up any amount of world bending options he wants, but would eventually need to have a lie-down while the gunslinger can blast until he's dead).
The fact that the gunslinger is very easy to break into getting enough attacks per round to put a squid to shame with little to no sacrifice aside from a few thousand gold comes to mind. :P
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I have a number of issues with having firearms in a medieval fantasy RPG.
I agree with the above posters about the "storybook" feel of a fantasy RPG, and I think that is one reason.
The technological aspect is another issue; the "early firearms" used in Pathfinder date from 1600 onward and were still in use in the early 1800s in the Napoleonic Wars. More primitive firearms such as matchlocks were in use by about 1450 but these firearms are already out of date in Golarion. The "advanced firearms" date from the 1850s during the industrial revolution. If there are revolvers, how come there aren't Gatling guns? The Gatling Gun was invented about 20 years after the revolver. However, this is not quite as big a deal for Golarion which has many modern inventions, such as the printing press and transparent glass. You may prefer to play an FRPG in the medieval era but Golarion is really set in the early modern era.
The big problem I have personally is that hand-held guns are a big cultural game-changer. They redefine the way warfare works. They are relatively simple to make, and gunpowder is also easy to manufacture. They are simple to use, which means that troops take much less training to prepare for war. Firearms were powerful enough even in the 1500s that one either had to wear very heavy armor or not bother with armor at all. Practically speaking once a culture with decent metallurgy is introduced to firearms, guns should be ubiquitous in that culture within a generation or so. Nearby cultures without the means to make them will also see their value and start trading for them.
Pathfinder restricts guns in ways that are implemented for game balance but make no sense in terms of the game world, and they come up with some contrived explanations as to why this is the case.
* Firearms are exotic weapons, when they should be simple weapons. The big advantage of firearms is that they are easy to use.
* Firearms are ridiculously expensive, when the craftsmanship required to make firearms is not significantly greater than that needed to make a decent sword. If you can get a katana for 50gp you should be able to get a musket for 20gp.
* Firearm ammunition is extremely expensive, despite the fact that all the materials needed to make it are cheap and easy to obtain.
* Practically speaking you need to play a specific class to use firearms competitively, or to even have access to a firearm early in the game. And that class is only effective with firearms. (I would have been much more comfortable with the gunslinger if you could make gunslingers that use other types of weapons).
All these things are in place to prevent the widespread use of firearms in the game. If that is important, why have them in the game at all?
The one balancing factor that would have made firearms reasonable would be to use realistic technological effects. For example:
* Reloading times. A smoothbore musket would take about 30 seconds (5 combat rounds) for a new recruit to reload and fire. A veteran could do it in 20 seconds (3 combat rounds).
* Smoke. Smokeless powder was not invented until the 1880s. Prior to that firing a gun produced a significant cloud of smoke and repeated shots would cloak a battlefield in smoke. Gun rules should include concealment rules based on this.
* Inaccuracy. Smoothbore guns had significant windage (the gap between the size of the bullet and the size of the barrel). This meant that the bullet would bounce around in the barrel on the way out and its trajectory would never line up perfectly with the line of the barrel. This made smoothbore weapons inaccurate generally, though a marksman could gain a familiarity with a specific weapon that would allow for greater accuracy. i.e. If the shooter knew his gun tended to fire a couple degrees to the left he could compensate by aiming to the right. This would be less of an issue with advanced firearms.
Faced with these issues, firearms could be present in games without breaking them and at the same time making firearms not especially attractive for the average adventurer.
Man, I could go on and on. I hope my position is clear.
BTW to the poster who wanted to know what the problem with touch AC is, the issue is that as you go up in level most things get more difficult to do, but your abilities also advance. Monster AC increases, saves increase, CMD increases, resistances increase, and so on. But touch AC tends to go down as you get higher in level instead of up. So at high levels the gunslinger can hit everything including enemies that make other well-built characters struggle.
Peet
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Guns and Sword & Sorcery are different genres. Some people like mixing genres, some don't.
Setting aside the semantic issue of how you just called "guns" as a genre and the differences between what's generally referred to as "Sword & Sorcery" and a typical D&D style setting, there's plenty of fantasy fiction where guns show up. Anything with pirate ships showing up, all sorts of fantasy stories from Japan and China, plenty of old pulp stories, quite a lot of fantasy novels from the '70s played with the idea (The Guns of Avalon jumps out as an obvious example). Even if you're just looking at fantasy gaming, the first time I ever saw the word "arquebus" was in a equipment list back in the TSR days.
What it really comes down to, as best I can tell, is that we live in a culture which creates a massive gulf in our perception of guns vs. more or less any other kind of weapon. Guns still see regular use. You see/hear/read about real-world deaths caused by guns pretty regularly, establishing them as highly effective killing tools in your mind. Swords on the other hand, you really only tend to see in PG-13 fiction where nobody's going to die, and games (Like D&D, Pathfinder, Final Fantasy, WarCraft, etc. etc.) where it can take a good ten solid whacks from a sword to put someone down. Totally unrealistic, but you don't really have the basis of comparison for it to jump out at you as wrong. Throw guns into the same situation though, and your real world practical knowledge causes you to expect them to be just as deadly as they really are, leading to a massive disconnect.
The way people often get hung up on the notion of katanas being so much deadlier than western swords comes from a similar place. They saw non-ceremonial use much more recently, and have their perceived deadliness reinforced by Akira Kurasawa movies, where people get casually cut down left and right, and still generally float around in the nerdy public consciousness.
I get the feeling that a lot of people crabbing about guns are actually bitter about the mechanics, rather than the "feel" of them. After all, if they don't fit your setting, you can just say "no gunpowder, no Gunslingers".
It's just that guns are a pain in the backside in one direction or the other, at all times.
Mechanically, guns are awful at low levels:
- The weapons are incredibly expensive
- The ammo is incredibly expensive
- They have a chance to misfire
- Gunslingers are starved for feats at low levels
- Damage is subpar until level 5 (Gunslingers add Dex to Damage)
- Against a lot of medium-sized (or smaller), unarmored opponents, Touch AC isn't that much lower than normal.
Then, they suddenly start pouring out massive damage:
- Cost of the weapon quickly becomes relatively small compared to income and enhancement cost
- Cost of ammo quickly becomes negligible compared to income
- Gunslingers can eventually eliminate the misfire chance (with archetypes)
- It takes a long time for all the feats (including TWF) to come online, which hurts at low levels because you can't have everything right away. But by the time you reach around level 12 you'll have everything you need, including Signature Deed.
- Once players can afford two enhancements on their weapon, Distance (+1) doubles their Touch AC range and Seeking (+1) just straight up negates d% rolls for miss chances. By the way, when can we expect a melee version of Seeking? Will it be errata'ed to provide a +4 to the attack roll, on a single designated attack per round, chosen before the roll is made?
- Gunslingers can add Dex to damage with their firearms at level 5, along with a small further bonus depending on choice of archetype.
- At very high levels (or mid levels if you can convince your DM to use a "de-leveled" version, the problem of reloading dual pistols can be put to rest once and for all with Pistols of the Infinite Sky.
- High levels are full of giant monsters with AC and CMD galore, and a Touch AC of about half the Gunslinger's BAB.
Can you break it down for me a bit more, MJ?
I apologize; others have covered it better and, looking back at my wording, I feel I was being too argumentative. I'm withdrawing from this one.
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I don't mind playing a campaign that includes firearms, but I'm slowly starting to get sick of the touch AC mechanic. Feels to me that any shmuck with a gun can kill large creatures no sweat. I'd at least recommend one of two things for Pathfinder guns.
1) Cheapen the Amulet of Bullet Deflection (or whatever it's called), as to keep the ACs tough enough for your swordsman AND gunslinger.
2) Consider switching the Touch AC target with flat footed AC. Hard to dodge bullets.
However, thematically, I see no problem with guns.
I don't mind playing a campaign that includes firearms, but I'm slowly starting to get sick of the touch AC mechanic. Feels to me that any shmuck with a gun can kill large creatures no sweat. I'd at least recommend one of two things for Pathfinder guns.
1) Cheapen the Amulet of Bullet Deflection (or whatever it's called), as to keep the ACs tough enough for your swordsman AND gunslinger.
2) Consider switching the Touch AC target with flat footed AC. Hard to dodge bullets.
However, thematically, I see no problem with guns.
A good house-rule I've found is to expand what counts as "touch AC" for purposes of guns. I haven't run a game with one in a while, so I can't remember what I included and what I didn't, though.
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You know, for all of you who are hating on the gunslinger for hitting Touch AC, you are fully aware that the ALCHEMIST has been hitting touch AC forever now right?... Oh, and the Alchemist can very easily do MORE damage per "shot", can cause a wall of debuffs, and can throw more bombs in a single round than most Gunslingers... Oh and on top of that they still have their STILL PERFECTLY USABLE mutagen for free, get all of their extracts (which they can easily make into infusions to effectively create an allotment of free potions for the party every day), AND thier bombs are free, AND their bombs also hurt everyone (that you want anyway thanks to precise bombs discovery) around the guy you hit.
Oh and alchemists are fun vs swarms xD (for those following a certain otehr thread xD)
You know, for all of you who are hating on the gunslinger for hitting Touch AC, you are fully aware that the ALCHEMIST has been hitting touch AC forever now right?... Oh, and the Alchemist can very easily do MORE damage per "shot", can cause a wall of debuffs, and can throw more bombs in a single round than most Gunslingers... Oh and on top of that they still have their STILL PERFECTLY USABLE mutagen for free, get all of their extracts (which they can easily make into infusions to effectively create an allotment of free potions for the party every day), AND thier bombs are free, AND their bombs also hurt everyone (that you want anyway thanks to precise bombs discovery) around the guy you hit.
Oh and alchemists are fun vs swarms xD (for those following a certain otehr thread xD)
True, but my party currently doesn't have an alchemist, so I'm going to complain about THINGS on the INTERNET. >:V
But seriously, I talked around here somewhere before about how it just feels weird to me that everyone in the world can, theoretically, dodge bullets. I'd rather have sturdier armor than give everyone with a DEX or Dodge bonus to AC into Neo.
Also, alchemists are indeed pretty nuts. With the right build, nothing can do more than bother you.
It looks like the only time firearms are a problem is when they're in the hands of a gunslinger, aka the class specifically built to make firearms not suck!
Otherwise, any non-gunslinging player will read up how firearms work, and take a wand instead.
You know, for all of you who are hating on the gunslinger for hitting Touch AC, you are fully aware that the ALCHEMIST has been hitting touch AC forever now right?... Oh, and the Alchemist can very easily do MORE damage per "shot", can cause a wall of debuffs, and can throw more bombs in a single round than most Gunslingers... Oh and on top of that they still have their STILL PERFECTLY USABLE mutagen for free, get all of their extracts (which they can easily make into infusions to effectively create an allotment of free potions for the party every day), AND thier bombs are free, AND their bombs also hurt everyone (that you want anyway thanks to precise bombs discovery) around the guy you hit.
Oh and alchemists are fun vs swarms xD (for those following a certain otehr thread xD)
Isn't that just with their limited use bombs, though, or am I missing something about alchemists?
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Because I said soIn short, I'd like to hear why folks feel guns, specifically, are out of place in fantasy.
True fact. Even though the Tolkien universe does eventually have guns and stuff.
Because I said soIn short, I'd like to hear why folks feel guns, specifically, are out of place in fantasy.
So, we meet again.
Isn't that just with their limited use bombs, though, or am I missing something about alchemists?You know, for all of you who are hating on the gunslinger for hitting Touch AC, you are fully aware that the ALCHEMIST has been hitting touch AC forever now right?... Oh, and the Alchemist can very easily do MORE damage per "shot", can cause a wall of debuffs, and can throw more bombs in a single round than most Gunslingers... Oh and on top of that they still have their STILL PERFECTLY USABLE mutagen for free, get all of their extracts (which they can easily make into infusions to effectively create an allotment of free potions for the party every day), AND thier bombs are free, AND their bombs also hurt everyone (that you want anyway thanks to precise bombs discovery) around the guy you hit.
Oh and alchemists are fun vs swarms xD (for those following a certain otehr thread xD)
Limited use for the first few levels. The Alchemist can very easily have a very good supply of bombs, and it only takes a few bombs to do a VERY good chuck of damage/debuff. If you got a cognatigen then things get even funnier.
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Addiionaly, I would like to point out that, if you really wanted to, you can always have a Phaser Pistol! Even if the GM does not allow guns. You simply just need to take a Wand of Magic Missile and jerry rig it onto a hand crossbow base! BAM! Phaser Pistol. And it the best part is that not even a storm trooper can miss with it!
Flavor-wise, they're not my favorite, but that's just personal preference.
Mechanically, targeting touch AC feels very arbitrary. +5 full plate can turn aside a lance wielded in a charge, but not a bullet? Which do you suppose delivers more energy? It's also wreaks havoc with the CR system, with some challenges becoming completely trivial and others hardly being affected at all.
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I will give you the short answer.
Guns are a newer discovery than typical fantasy worlds have, and some would liken the introduction of the gun akin to making the game into a western, or that the guns would be overpowering. (They are a bit much sometimes with the high crit multiplier and touch attacks)
The fact is, except for Eberron, the Gun is out of place in most of the Brand's settings, including Forgotten Realms that most of the future products seem to be going toward.
I would hope to have something like the Warforged in PF soon, to be honest, along with a dragon kin race.
Psst, there are guns in the land of Gond in FR.
There are guns in LotR setting (not used by the group though).One of Tolkien's stories is about a shotgun wielding farmer who slays a dragon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmer_Giles_of_Ham
Old style guns rarely killed anyone in one shot: in fact you usually shot each other about 5 times in a duel back in the day before someone won (ball bullets like the tipped ones we have now).
Addiionaly, I would like to point out that, if you really wanted to, you can always have a Phaser Pistol! Even if the GM does not allow guns. You simply just need to take a Wand of Magic Missile and jerry rig it onto a hand crossbow base! BAM! Phaser Pistol. And it the best part is that not even a storm trooper can miss with it!
A friend of mine actually had a "gunslinger" character once, but it was actually just an artificer with pistol shaped wands. He eventually took the feat to dual wield the things so he could be especially western.
Flavor-wise, they're not my favorite, but that's just personal preference.
Mechanically, targeting touch AC feels very arbitrary. +5 full plate can turn aside a lance wielded in a charge, but not a bullet? Which do you suppose delivers more energy?
Depends. Remember that the General Kinetic Energy equation is E=m*V^2. While, yes the horseback rider with a lance has a VERY significant edge on mass, that is actually of less signifigance than the objects velocity. Depending on the type of powder used, rifling, length of the barrel, and bullet aerodynamics, the bullet's much higher speed could very easily actually have a higher Kinetic Energy. This, combined with the small surface area in which the energy is being imparted, could very feasibly allow a bullet to rip through armor with ease.
The big caveat here though is that with too much velocity, you can end up with the problem that the M-16 has vs the AK-47. While the significantly higher velocity of the M-16's round mathmatically gives it the higher kinect energy, its velocity is actually so high that the bullet has a tendency to actually cleaning punch straight through a person and not impart much energy on impact. This would translate to the victim of the shot to actually not feel the impact nearly as much and can often lead to the effect in which you can shoot a person 10+ times and they still charge at you.
You know, for all of you who are hating on the gunslinger for hitting Touch AC, you are fully aware that the ALCHEMIST has been hitting touch AC forever now right?... Oh, and the Alchemist can very easily do MORE damage per "shot", can cause a wall of debuffs, and can throw more bombs in a single round than most Gunslingers... Oh and on top of that they still have their STILL PERFECTLY USABLE mutagen for free, get all of their extracts (which they can easily make into infusions to effectively create an allotment of free potions for the party every day), AND thier bombs are free, AND their bombs also hurt everyone (that you want anyway thanks to precise bombs discovery) around the guy you hit.
Oh and alchemists are fun vs swarms xD (for those following a certain otehr thread xD)
You know, that is a good point, as much as I'd rather leave mechanics talk out of this discussion. I actually wanted to bring the Alchemist up in the OP, but it was late, and I like sleep. And really, on the flavor side of things, the Alchemist has a similar "out of place" feel, if like me, you imagine them with a mad scientist feel, or a steampunk theme.
Depends. Remember that the General Kinetic Energy equation is E=m*V^2. While, yes the horseback rider with a lance has a VERY significant edge on mass, that is actually of less signifigance than the objects velocity. Depending on the type of powder used, rifling, length of the barrel, and bullet aerodynamics, the bullet's much higher speed could very easily actually have a higher Kinetic Energy. This, combined with the small surface area in which the energy is being imparted, could very feasibly allow a bullet to rip through armor with ease.
I'm not a physicist by any stretch, so please understand my comprehension is rather limited. It's possible I'm getting this way wrong.
With that out of the way, what about a simple thought experiment: Given that every action has an equal and opposite reaction, do we not know that the total kinetic energy delivered by a bullet is equal to the amount of recoil experienced by the person firing the gun? That is, barely enough to cause the person's hand to jerk? Contrast that with the force delivered by a lance to a mounted knight, which is easily enough to dismount the knight should he hit something non-yielding and fail to drop his lance.
Also, aren't we assuming that the fire-arms we're discussing don't have rifling, and are firing simple lead spheres?
Edit: Isn't it E=1/2mv^2?
I just don't like the sheer amount of damage they do and the fact that they're ranged touch.
I understand a gun can rip through most armor, but we're talking about magical dragons and devas and crap.
In my games, either everyone is a gunslinger, or nobody is.
Alchemist has a limited amount of bombs per day, a gunslinger can literally have an infinite amount of ammunition with a low-level spell.
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You guys all know that guns predate plate armor, right?
I'm totally willing to accept that my subjective preferences for a fantasy world do not match reality. :)
Depends. Remember that the General Kinetic Energy equation is E=m*V^2. While, yes the horseback rider with a lance has a VERY significant edge on mass, that is actually of less signifigance than the objects velocity. Depending on the type of powder used, rifling, length of the barrel, and bullet aerodynamics, the bullet's much higher speed could very easily actually have a higher Kinetic Energy. This, combined with the small surface area in which the energy is being imparted, could very feasibly allow a bullet to rip through armor with ease.I'm not a physicist by any stretch, so please understand my comprehension is rather limited. It's possible I'm getting this way wrong.
With that out of the way, what about a simple thought experiment? Given that every action has an equal and opposite reaction, do we not know that the total kinetic energy delivered by a bullet is equal to the amount of recoil experienced by the person firing the gun? That is, barely enough to cause the person's hand to jerk? Contrast that with the force delivered by a lance to a mounted knight, which is easily enough to dismount the knight should he hit something non-yielding and fail to drop his lance.
Also, aren't we assuming that the fire-arms we're discussing don't have rifling, and are firing simple lead spheres?
Edit: Isn't it E=1/2mv^2?
That is true lol. Forgot the 1/2.
As for the feeling of recoil, that is actually incorrect. The reason why you don't feel much recoil on the firearm is because most of the force from the recoil is not transferred to the shooter. With most semi-auto and full auto firearms, the force of recoil is actually transferred into the reloading mechnism and is used to reload and cock the firearm, reading it for the next shot. Additionally, the other reason why the lancer feels so much return force is because the force of impact is traveling all the way through to them for a longer period of time. In a shot of a single bullet spans only a very small faction of a second, where as the force of an impact from a lance lasts much longer.
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I don't mind playing a campaign that includes firearms, but I'm slowly starting to get sick of the touch AC mechanic. Feels to me that any shmuck with a gun can kill large creatures no sweat. I'd at least recommend one of two things for Pathfinder guns.
1) Cheapen the Amulet of Bullet Deflection (or whatever it's called), as to keep the ACs tough enough for your swordsman AND gunslinger.
2) Consider switching the Touch AC target with flat footed AC. Hard to dodge bullets.
However, thematically, I see no problem with guns.
I'm a fan of moving it to flat-footed AC (would be a massive step in the right direction) but more importantly I'd simply stop the rapid reload feat from working with primitive guns.
I fully accept and expect when something gets hit by a bullet it should hurt, a lot, but spitting out a dozen bullets every 6 seconds from a muzzle load musket just really breaks my suspension of dis-belief.
Have your guns but slow down the rate of fire or accuracy and it becomes far more palatable.