I don't know if "battle-hardened" applies to daemons (given they do have fewer high-level entities), but the rest certainly works. And if you interpret "battle-hardened" as "experienced" (rather than translating it into fantasy terms as "powerful"), that works fairly well, too.
It's hard to evaluate population/diversity of any outsider race, since Paizo is constantly making new ones. I am sure Daemons would appear more powerful if they were in Bestiary 1, or had an entire AP and region of the world to explore them.
That is something else to consider--that maybe we just haven't seen all the daemon types statted up yet.
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The thing with demons vs. daemons is that daemons generally represent a specific form of death or dying, while pretty much any old bag of attributes and powers can be a demon. The abyss also has 'unwholesome fecundity' as it's *thing,* leading to it being completely on-theme that there would be an almost infinite array of possible demons, whereas abaddon, not so much. Indeed, given the sterile nature of abaddon, *less* daemons would perhaps be a better thematic fit than more.
That said, there are a fair number of means of death or dying that don't seem to be covered by the current batch of daemon types, such as death by predation (being eaten) or death in childbirth or death by dehydration or death by fire or death by falling or death by parasitic infestation / body horror or death by genocide or death by vivisection / botched surgery or death by betrayal / treachery (many of which might be covered by specific daemonic harbingers, but don't have a whole daemon type of their own).
or death by genocide
Got that one covered by the obcisidaemon from BotD 3. :)
The Oinodaemon claims rulership over all other daemons. There is no other single figure in the lower planes that commands more respect and fear than the Oinodaemon (excepting a few powerful arch-devils).
His position is constantly threatened by those who would usurp the throne and take the position for their own. It is believed there are at least seven other extremely power daemons vying for the throne and title of Oinodaemon. Through subtle machinations, sheer power, and fear, the current Oinodaemon has held all challengers at bay.
Along with mastery over vast realms, the Horsemen are served by unimaginably enormous armies of their lesser brethren, but are obeyed most closely by retinues of daemons enslaved to their titles. These specific strains of daemonic servitors, known among daemonkind as deacons, serve whoever holds the title of Horseman. Although these instruments of the archdaemons differ in strength and ability, their numbers provide their lords with legions capable of near-equal terrorization.
Upon the poisonous expanses of Abaddon, lesser daemonic peers carve petty fiefdoms and posture as lords, but despite their world-spanning intrigues, all bow before the Horsemen—though most do so only grudgingly.
Unique Soul (priceless): For the truly unique souls—those of legendary figures, epic heroes, and other massive presences—there can be no going price. The unique sparks that live within these creatures are valuable beyond compare, and the frantic bidding (and backstabbing) that arises when one of these trapped spirits comes up for sale is the sort of thing fiends and undead wait thousands of years for, paying nigh-unimaginable prices for the right to consume or display such an artifact.
From this, we can garner a couple things:
- The Oinodaemon is probably the most powerful fiend in existence. Note that the article mentions archdevils and no exceptional demons, indicating that the archdevils don't necessarily hold their distinction for raw power.
- There are at least seven other daemons of massive power. So much for the daemons being outgunned!
- There are daemon lords probably roughly equivalent to demon lords like Haagenti.
- The sorts of souls the Horsemen doubtless possess in spades would be enough to purchase the aid of pretty much anybody with an alignment south of Neutral.
From this, we can garner a couple things:
- The Oinodaemon is probably the most powerful fiend in existence. Note that the article mentions archdevils and no exceptional demons, indicating that the archdevils don't necessarily hold...
That information about the Oinodaemon is actually from the Tome of Horrors entry, and their version of the Oinodaemon is different from the version used in Paizo products, specifically Golarion. It's pretty well established that at the demigod level, there are only the 4 horsemen, under which serve a multitude of daemonic harbingers.
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I always had this image in my head of the last Daemon. They have accomplished their goal and as he lays dying ready to complete the last detail, the ruins of the multiverse condense around him. Then his death lets out a spark igniting the the creation of a new multiverse. As he slips into oblivion he sheds a single tear because despite all that he and his kind did to end everything forever, he was the trigger for the next Beginning.
That information about the Oinodaemon is actually from the Tome of Horrors entry, and their version of the Oinodaemon is different from the version used in Paizo products, specifically Golarion. It's pretty well established that at the demigod level, there are only the 4 horsemen, under which serve a multitude of daemonic harbingers.
From this, we can garner a couple things:
- The Oinodaemon is probably the most powerful fiend in existence. Note that the article mentions archdevils and no exceptional demons, indicating that the archdevils don't necessarily hold...
Yeah, okay. We'll focus on the deacons, then. Deacons appear to be the equivalent of a normal demon lord or devil duke.
Alright, fair enough. So can we take that being your only holdup as evidence that this discussion is officially put to rest? ;P
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Well, lets look at some things you have failed to address Joe:
1) See that guy Todd Stewart whose posted a few times? He wrote the book on Daemons.
Notice what he wrote above on the Oniodaemon? Might wanna rethink your stance of what is true vs what might seemingly be true because that's what the Daemons what you to believe.
2) Charon is apparently the entire River Styx, which runs through multiple lower planes. That's some kinda insane power.
He is also incredibly old, very possibly as old as the universe itself. Are you absolutely sure he isn't powerful on his own to take out a lone demon lord?
While the book might say he is or is not, recall that I believe the Daemon book says one of the Horsemen(or more than one) created the Demons, which Lamasthu rose from.
How much are you willing to bet Charon wasn't involved in said creation?
3) Each of those books is written from the perspective of the beings they detail. So, you really shouldn't believe them.
Maybe the Horsemen want you to believe they are that weak, so you make the mistake of invading them, only to find out they can actually kick your ass with ease.
4) The whole home field advantage is really something you should not overlook. Its been stated throughout all of D&D/PF that the various Powers on their home planes are vastly more powerful there, specifically than they are elsewhere.
So, for example, the Horsemen might normally in fact be on the same power as an Archdevil or Demon Lord.
But, what if in Abbadon, they are as powerful as deities themselves? 4 gods vs 1 wins.
5) You say that the Horsemen are on par power-wise with Archdevils and Demon Lords, but not which ones. Because that's left vague, probably intentionally.
For example, if all Four Horsemen are on par with Nocticula, who is on the verge of divinity herself(According to Lords of Chaos), then they very likely could whoop one normal deity.
6) Why do you keep assuming that the other, actual deities in Abbadon didn't help the Horsemen defend vs the invasion? Because the book didn't spell it out for you to easily see? That's not the best reasoning to assume something.
Also, you say that their helping to beat back the invasion is not "an unfathomable reason" for them being allowed to have domains in Abbadon.
This is again an assumption on your part. How do you know they weren't given their realms in Abbadon long, long before Lamashtu invaded, and their help was part of their "contract" to remain.
Also. The Horsemen, or maybe just Charon or the Oniodaemon, has given permission for two gods to live in their house. As opposed to the gods just coming in and demanding rooms, and getting them.
Makes ya wonder just how truly powerful the Horsemen are, if gods need their leave to live on their plane.
Not trying to be antagonistic, but a lot of these are very, very good points that have been raised over the course of this thread that you haven't answered to.
What your problem is is that you are trying to place numerical statistics or real world answers to something that is far beyond such.
The Book says the Four Horsemen successfully defended Abaddon from a demonic invasion. Does it really matter how?
Maybe Charon has a crazy artifact? Maybe the Oniodaemon really is something powerful that, once Lamashtu figured out what it was, caused her to call off her invasion. Maybe the other gods, and non Daemon allies all rallied behind the Horsemen, due to debts, favors owed, etc.
You ASSUME Lamashtu brought other Demon Lords with her, yet you fail to say which ones. Is that because they aren't named, and you just figure it makes sense for her to?
Well, if that's possible that other Demon Lords joined her, without being named, why can it also not be possible that the NE deities in Abbadon helped the Horsemen in its defense, despite not being named as aiding themselves.
Its been awhile since I read the Horsemen book, but I don't recall too much detail being given on this invasion. Just that it happened, who she slew and that's pretty much it.
Also, there is 30 listed Harbingers on the back cover of the book, yet the section on them claims there are hundreds. If even those 30 joined in the defense of Abbadon, I'm willing to bet it was enough to turn the tide.
Finally, I think another thing that is important to note is, yes the Demon Mother slew the Horsemen of War, and Pestilence, but as soon as she did(more or less), they were replaced. At least, in the case of War, which is actually said in the former Horsemen of War write-up.
If you invade your enemies, and as soon as you take out one their leaders, another one, possibly more powerful and badass, rises to take its spot, wouldn't you begin to re-think your invasion?
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Something to consider is that Lamashtu is a Chaotic Evil being and likely has a substantial ego. I doubt Lamashtu would bring allies with her to try and conquer Abaddon, because doing so would be admitting she isn't strong enough to do it herself.
I'm not sure how 'official' you all take the posts James Jacobs makes in his Ask thread, but he has stated numerous times that the Gods that ascended after Rovagug was imprisoned (of which Lamashtu is one of) are significantly weaker than those were existed before. Iomedae, Cayden, Nethys, Irori, Gorum etc. all are weaker than gods like Torag, Zon-Kuthon, Shelyn, but especially Pharasma, Saranrae and Asmodeus. He's stated on multiple occasions that Pharasma, Saranrae and Asmodeus are the three strongest gods, excepting Rovagug, with Pharasma being the eldest and strongest, and Asmodeus and Saranrae being tied for strength.
So it is entirely possible that Lamashtu, while a Goddess, isn't that much more powerful than CR 30 beings like Charon.
It's been mentioned before how Lamashtu only controls a portion of the Demons in the Abyss, this is something I think is important.
Lets, for example, use the United States as a representation of the Abyss. The size of the states represent the population a Demon Lord (or Lamasthu) has under their control. Lets assume Lamasthu has control of Alaska (a state 1/3 the size of the contiguous 48 states).
Lets say Abaddon is Russia. The US and Russia are of fairly similar size (though Russia is bigger). However, lets say Russia is split up into 4 different states, but they work together to reach mutual goals.
Now, the Abyss doesn't work together, so Lamashtu fields only the demons under her control (which would be Alaska). The Horsemen do work together, and field all the daemons under their combined control (which would be all of Russia).
So you now have all of Russia, vs all of Alaska, rather then the entire Abyss. One third of the Abyss vs Abaddon definitely qualifies as 'the hordes of the Abyss' but more than likely wouldn't be enough to take on the Horsemen, especially in their seat of power.
The River Styx is also something to be taken into account, largely because what it does hasn't really ever been written down. In mythology, Achilles was dipped in the River Styx and became invulnerable (except his heel). For all we know, there are Daemons that run around on Abaddon that are seemingly invulnerable on their plane. In the rules context, the daemons may be able to take a dip in the Styx to gain temporary Mythic power, or Damage Reduction, or something like that.
The Oinodaemon is, in my opinion, like Tartarus from Greek Mythology. Tartarus was not just a place where beings could be banished (as in the Titans), Tartarus was also one of the primal beings (like Gaia or Ouranos) that spawned the other divine beings of Greek Mythology. Pathfinder pays a lot of respect to the mythology that much of D&D and Pathfinder came from; so with that in mind, it would not strike me at all by surprise if the Oinodaemon and Abaddon were the same thing.
It would also make a certain amount of sense when you look at things in Greek mythology. For example, Gaia (the Earth) and Ouranos (the Sky) gave birth to the Titans. Cronus killed his father and then slept with his mother to give birth to a number of gods (including Zeus, Hades and Poseidon). Zeus then slew Cronus and banished him to Tartarus.
So it wouldn't be at all unreasonable that the Oinodaemon spawned the original Four Horsemen, and then was betrayed by the Horsemen. Unlike Ouranos or Cronus, however, the Horsemen couldn't kill or banish the Oinodaemon as he was both a being, and the realm they lived on. At least in theory.
In fact, I think I'm going to use that as 'my official' answer to the Oinodaemon for my version of Golarion.
It would also make a certain amount of sense when you look at things in Greek mythology. For example, Gaia (the Earth) and Ouranos (the Sky) gave birth to the Titans. Cronus killed his father and then slept with his mother to give birth to a number of gods (including Zeus, Hades and Poseidon). Zeus then slew Cronus and banished him to Tartarus.
Not quite, Cronus married/slept with his sister Rhea to birth the original Olympians.
Now lots of good points have been raised as to why Lamashtu's invasion might have failed. Maybe she really was an idiot and didn't bring any allies. Who knows? But my point about the daemons being outgunned by Hell, Heaven, and the Abyss still stands, as does my disbelief that somebody, at some point, hasn't just gone "screw it, let's get rid of these guys." When you're straight up evil, everybody distrusts or hates you, and you don't have as many guns as your opponents, you typically don't last long as a major player.
Alternatively,.... turn it around. (Ayn Rand: "Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.")
"When you're straight up evil, everybody distrusts or hates you, and you don't have as many guns as your opponents, you typically don't last long as a major player."
Therefore, since the daemons have lasted long as a major player, then either:
* They're not straight up evil
* Not everyone distrusts/hates them, or
* They have at least as many guns as their opponents.
I'd go with #3. They're packing something that is largely unknown.
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you know funny enough there have been a few times in history that some nation has went , you know what eff it, lets take that guy out. Im pretty sure a bunch of nations in the world, (some that dont even like each other) teamed up to stop it. What makes you think that couldnt happen in Pathfinder's realms?
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@Monkeygod
I assume that Lamashtu brought allies along because her section of "Lords of Chaos" specifies that most demons are allied with her in one way or another. There's nothing in the "Horsemen" book that indicates that Urgathoa and Zyphus do anything other than rent space from the Four.
Yes there are thirty harbingers listed. Harbingers are the equivalent of nascent demon lords, infernal dukes, and whatever the weaker variant of an empyreal lord is. In short, they're weaker than full demon lords, archdevils, or empyreal lords. Not to mention that there are thousands of nascent demon lords in the Abyss alone. If you read some of my earlier posts, you'll note that I mention, on several occasions, that if they'd made the harbingers the equivalent of full demon lords, we wouldn't be having this discussion. They didn't though.
Now lots of good points have been raised as to why Lamashtu's invasion might have failed. Maybe she really was an idiot and didn't bring any allies. Who knows? But my point about the daemons being outgunned by Hell, Heaven, and the Abyss still stands, as does my disbelief that somebody, at some point, hasn't just gone "screw it, let's get rid of these guys." When you're straight up evil, everybody distrusts or hates you, and you don't have as many guns as your opponents, you typically don't last long as a major player.
I feel like at this point further debate is kind of pointless...as you are willing to discard just about anything we post, and play up or ignore contradictions to your argument.
Daemons and the horsemen still exist in the Great Beyond. Ergo some reason exists for why someone hasn't taken them over/wiped out, we just haven't had it spelled out in flashing neon letters yet.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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And because I didn't say so before: Given that we're talking about daemons, and since I wrote BotD 3, I should mention that unless it also appears in print, anything I say here in this thread is just speculation and musing on my part and not canonical for Golarion*. I'm just a freelancer. :)
*though God help the PCs in my current home campaign.
And let me publically say, I love that book and everything in it. You helped me win RPG Superstar. Thank you.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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That is something else to consider--that maybe we just haven't seen all the daemon types statted up yet.
Of course this must be true. A\It's a better game if there are types of different daemons for every kind of death that can be personified. This isn't infinite, but it could be a lot.
In fact, I have some untouched favorites I'd really like to put into publication. Daigle?
How are they still around?
Paizo hasn't published official stat blocks for them.
Anything with an official stat block gets killed. ;)
Not having a stat block is a better defense than SR100 and DR100 combined! :D
Just like this thread, the daemons spontaneously reappear when you thought they were dead.
BTW, the Oinodaemon is so called because he says "Oi! No!" when someone tries to invade Abaddon. He's like a bouncer. Probably shaves his head and wears a tuxedo 2 sizes too small. "If you're not on the list, you ain't comin' in!"