i suck at making high level characters


Advice


you know, ive been a DM for a long time. But the majority of my campaigns, and campaigns im in, usually cap out at level 12 before we do a reboot. So i have nil experience in building a high level, 16th+, pcs.
Right now i am in a high level campaign, at 20th level, but when i look at my pc and compare it to others, i feel like my guy is puny compared to them. an example, i am doing maybe +50 pts of damage, and there is another guy in the campaign that is doing +200 pts. How does that happen? what am i missing???
So what id like is for those who have the experience to look through the pc that iv created and give me some helpful advise so that i can do some impressive damage (since i am a fighter after all).

I havent crunched the numbers for damage yet, but i know

my guy:

20th human unbreakable fighter

stats:
str 20 +6+5+5=36/+12
dex 16 +6+4=26/+6
con 18 +6+4+2=28/+8
int 18 +4=22/+6
wis 17 +4=21/+6
cha 14 +4= 18/+4

HPs: 326
fort +12+7+19
ref +6+6+2+14
will +6+3+2 +11

permamancied spells on troy
darkvision
toungues
arcane sight
comprehend languages
read magic

feats:
lightning reflexes
iron will
endurance
diehard
toughness
run
weapon focus falcion
imp crit falcion
imp crit great axe
dodge
vital strike
devastating strike
imp vital strike
throw anything
imp devastating strike
penetrating strike
greater pen strike
greater vital strike
improvised weapon mastery
gtr wpn spec falchion
weapon focus gt axe
improved unarmed combat
greater pen strike
weapon spec falchion

equipment

+5 falchion of speed, thundering and ghost touch
+2 greataxe
belt of perfection +6 (str, dex, con)
headband of mental superiority +4
Invincible armor
ring of protection +5
amulet of natural armor +5

manual of bodily health +4 (+4 to con)
Manual of gailful exercise +5 (+5 to str)
headband of mental superiority +4

handy haversack
battering ram
sewing kit
adventurers kit
climbing kit
daggers x6

{purchased}
5xwish for str +5
2xwish for con +2


Well, you've taken a lot of feats that are less than useful. The vital strike tree, for example.


You might want to look for a way to gain flight of some sort, and consider getting some archery feats and picking up a true ranged weapon. If you're going for a high crit build (and why not?) you might look into the feats that add status effects on crits. Be sure to pick up power attack. I didn't see it but maybe I overlooked it.

I'm not entirely sure how someone is getting +200 to every hit. Or did you mean they are doing 200 damage per round? Per round is very manageable, but getting that high of a bonus on damage per hit is out of my area of expertise. Good luck!


Yeah, im going to change those vital strike feats into some clrave feats and what not...

Shadow Lodge

If you go the cleave route, consider cleaving critical. You gain extra attacks on adjacent enemys with every crit.

Also get rid of Throw anything and improvised weapon mastery to add bleeding critical and stunning critical. Pick up a mighty bow for ranged attacks


There are two glaring problems with the build (beyond wasting time with vital strike and all that stuff- though really cleave isn't going to save any bacon here):

A) you don't have power attack- that is mandatory for a high damage build. On a two handed fighter at your level, you are leaving +18 damage on the table each time you swing your weapon. That's one hell of a lot of a gap.
B) You chose the unbreakable archetype which drops weapon training. My personal opinion of fighter archetypes is that if the archetype gets rid of weapon training it is a waste of time. You are leaving behind the best fighter class ability. With gloves of dueling (assuming they are available which they should be at level 20), that's another +6/+6 left at the door. Just that would offset the -to hit from power attack and add in more damage.

So just those two things would have a net effect versus your current build would be +24 damage per swing.

If you wanted to go whole hog on damage, you could pick up the two handed fighter archetype instead and your damage would spike even more (another +6/+12/+12/+12 for the full around attack damage bonuses).

Liberty's Edge

Won't get into the feats and such, well maybe just for Run, but you have a list of wish purchases at the bottom for strength and constitution, but also have the manual of gainful exercise and bodily health. The wishes and the books both grant inherent bonuses, which don't stack. That should save you some gold to use elsewhere.


Overall, my opinion (which may be less than totally informed) is that you have chosen some of the less impressive feats in the game, especially considering that you're drawing from books besides the Core Rulebook. I'd consider checking out one of the Fighter Class Guides. Briefly:

1. I wouldn't bother with anything from the Vital Strike or Devastating Strike lines. Consider the Intimidating Prowess/Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses/Deadly Stroke and Furious Focus/Dreadful Carnage lines instead.

2. Power attack. Every turn.

3. You seem to be too invested in your backup weapon; it might make more sense to just take precautions against getting disarmed/sundered in the first place, if possible. You might also consider carrying weapons that do different kinds of damage (both are slashing) and dropping a +1 on the Greataxe for Keen.

4. I wouldn't bolster any saves aside from Will.

5. Toughness and Diehard aren't all that great, in my experience. I mean, if you have extra feat slots to spend, sure, but...


I agree with the notion that you have a lot of feats that aren't helping your cause.

An overhaul of them would help you out a lot.

What sources are allowed?

What general strategies does your group use in combat? Are you expected to be the main tank/DPR guy?

Unbreakable is not a good archetype for DPR, it's more of a defensive build (obviously).

Weapon Master or even vanilla fighters with Weapon Training and glovbes of dueling jump your damage up a lot.

Getting more attacks out of your standard action is very important since you don't really have a way to move and attack more than once, I would consider that when selecting feats.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

yeah... it seems like you're trying to diversify too much, and have chosen quite a few sub-optimal options. switch to the two-handed fighter. don't invest in items for mental stats (with the possible exception of a little on Wis). drop most or all of your non-combat feats. always be power attacking. if you're using traits take Alluring and then the Arcane Strike feat. with just those simple changes your damage bonus should look something like:

+18/24 Str (depending on attack/routine) +24 power attack (including archetype bonus) +6 weapon training (including gloves of dueling) +5 enhancement bonus +5 arcane strike +4 greater weapon specialization

+68 is pretty respectable. there are 2 (i think) ways to legitimately get bonus damage up in the +200 range but both are situational and require some luck. 1) switch your falchion for a tetsubo; take leadership and have your cohort be a 2WF fighter with keen kukris and the Butterfly's Sting feat- he should crit every round and pass that crit to you; with a x4 modifier you'll be at +272 damage on that crit. 2) switch your falchion for a lance; take spirited charge, be mounted as often as possible- on a mounted charge your lance does x3 damage, raising your bonus to +204. if your teammate isn't using one of these unusual builds its pretty likely that there's an issue with his math.


your items are a bit lackluster too.

+5 falchion of speed, ghost touch, and thundering. +5 is good, speed is good, ghost touch and thundering aren't really necessary. Perhaps Holy would serve you better. I'm a fan of Vicious as well.

You can get rid of the +2 greataxe entirely, there's no reason to use it.
Headband of mental superiority doesn't seem like a priority to me.

A cloak of resistance +5 is practically mandatory for a high level character. The only real reason not to have one is if you are using Wings of Flying in your cloak slot. If that is the case, get 5 Amber Spindle Ioun Stones for the same effect. I would HIGHLY recommend doing this. Your saves will be better, and you will be able to fly.

Also, Stat bonuses from Wish and stat bonuses from Manuals don't stack, they are both Inherent bonuses.


Musts for 2-handed fighters
1. POWER ATTACK: -6 to hit +18 damage, that shaves about 2 hit-dice off an opponent alone.

2. Weapon Spec. and Greater Weapon Spec.: +4 more damage

3. Weapon Training: +4 to hit and damage with your primary weapon.

4. Vital strike is a TRAP.

Question
What are you doing?

It seems like you'retrying to do to much. You have a bunch of feats invested in survivalist (endurance, die hard, dodge, ect.) but it looks like you mainly want to deal big damage. Also, you have a few feats that just don't help (Run, throw anything, Improvised weapon mastery, ect) and should really be dropped. Lastly, what's with the great ax? The falchion is your weapon, it's good to have a back-up but don't invest in it (also it should probably cover the other 2 damage types, like a morning star).

A tip building a high level, number based character. Ask "Does this choice further my primary goal?", if not, don't take it.

Liberty's Edge

Don't forget though, while you can make your character more "efficient", don't give up all flavor and concept to do it... doesn't have to be pure combat and to hell with anything else.


Stop stressing. Its a really good robust build.

When you need to move or vs DR vital strike is great.
Vs will saves you're good, so your not a glass walled butt monkey.

Power attack is a necessity unfortunately. Get it.

If DMs never challenge your weaknesses, nothing is targeting your will saves and your DM gives you full attacks all the time and smart opponents aren't blocking charge lines with terrain, slaves or spells well... enjoy anyway knowing you are a consistent and reliable damage dealer and not just because you're being mothered.


awp832 wrote:
A cloak of resistance +5 is practically mandatory for a high level character. The only real reason not to have one is if you are using Wings of Flying in your cloak slot. If that is the case, get 5 Amber Spindle Ioun Stones for the same effect.

There is only one other reason from what i know - Protection Domain.

On topic tho i agree with other ppl - you need power attack and something useful instead of endurance/run/diehard, maybe shatter defenses+conrnugon smash. If you want axe for flavor that is fine, but for pure optimization - falchion


Your strength should also be higher. At level 20 you should have at least a 26.


In addition to what has already been mentioned Manuals and Wishes do not stack, both provide inherent bonuses which cap out at +5.

It isnt clear whether you have added both to your stat or if one of the +5's in from levelling.

I would pick up a whole host of smaller cost efficient magic items. Clear Spindle Ioun Stone in a Wayfinder, a bow of some sort to deal with flyers, some means of flight, +5 cloak of resistance, feather step slippers to ignore difficult terrain for charging, gloves of duelling.


andreww wrote:


I would pick up a whole host of smaller cost efficient magic items. Clear Spindle Ioun Stone in a Wayfinder, a bow of some sort to deal with flyers, some means of flight, +5 cloak of resistance, feather step slippers to ignore difficult terrain for charging, gloves of duelling.

Minor note, unless he changed his archetype, gloves of dueling would be close to worthless. Unbreakable dispenses with weapon training (which is why I have little use for it).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@IMPERIAL HERALD.

Hail and welcome to high level play! :)

Well everyone has their opinion, so here's mine. Before rebuilding your character I'd consider a few things.

Other than "wanting more damage dealing" what role does your character serve?
How is the campaign structured? Are there going to be Mythic options? If so, Vital Strike definitely becomes much much better.
Unbreakable archetype is all about being tougher and resisting various effects that drop other characters. How often has this come up? Also many of the abilities can be acquired via magical items, even simple potions, OR depending on your party, spells from a trusty comrade. Don't neglect alchemical items. Anti-toxin/anti-plague grant a very nice bonus versus poision/disease.

All things being equal there's nothing horrific about your build. It seems you have a very very large toolbox of options to choose from and can adapt to many situations.

Without knowing anything else about your game, other than that it's higher level and your want more damage:
================================
I have to agree with getting the Power Attack feat. It is one of the main sources of extra damage. Especially with weapons wielded in both hands. As for which feat to swap it with the Run feat is not compatible with heavy armor use. So switch out Run for Power Attack.

The Vital Strike line is maligned by many...and yet there are worse things to have when you are in situations where you don't get a full attack. How often does that happen in your game?
================================
And finally, if you really want to more into more damage...then I'd consider dropping the archetype. Most of the abilities you can acquire via regular feats. As a fighter you have feats to spare.

As it's most basic, the building blocks of large melee damage martials are usually:
High strength.
High to hit.
2-handed weapon.
Power Attack.

The other suggestions of the Shatter Defenses and Dreadful Carnage line are worth considering. But only if it comes up in your campaign. If your foes are all constructs and unintelligent undead then of course Intimidate checks are not optimal :)

I have a few other suggestions if you want to consider it.

Can you afford a Ring of Evasion? It's usually worth it. Alternatively, a Ring of Freedom of Movement is also a very good item.
Your Will saves seem a bit low. Consider getting Improved Iron Will.
Item-wise the Wayfinder with a slotted Clear Spindle Ioun Stone to gain immunity to enchantment/compulsion as if you were under a continuous Protection from Evil is something to consider.

The duplicate feats for different weapons...was this a style choice? Why did you focus on multiple weapons? If you are open to suggestion, focus on one melee weapon and re-purpose the other feats :)

Good luck!


First off, be glad you are not playing with anyone who knows how to crack out damage per round. I saw a lot of feats that were wastes like diehard and endurance. If you are taking 300+ damage and have to worry about the last -con hp, ut oh! If not - these feats are a complete waste. They are great for 1 time npcs who are going to die anyways.

Your stats:
stats:
str 20 +6+5+5=36/+12
dex 16 +6+4=26/+6
con 18 +6+4+2=28/+8
int 18 +4=22/+6
wis 17 +4=21/+6
cha 14 +4= 18/+4

I'm not sure if you meant them acquiring more stats somewhere else, but the bonuses would normally be +13, +8, +9, +6, +5, +4.

A few, cheap, decent magical items:

A wayfinder with a cracked dusty rose prism inside is a very cheap, good magical item every L20 character should have (1,000g/Slotless: +1 competence bonus to initiative, +2 circumstance bonus to survival to not get lost, light/use activated, +2 insight bonus on CMB and to CMD.)

Boots of the Cat (1,000g: no matter how much you fall, you take minimum damage; according to the game, maximum velocity happens at 20d6; so the maximum damage you can take from falling is 20)

Feather Step Slippers to the Boots of the Cat (2,000g x 1.5 (if added to above) = 3,000g: ignore difficult terrain, including taking a 5 foot step in difficult terrain)

Sandals of Quick Reaction (4,000g x 1.5 (if added to above) = 6,000g: take a move and standard action during a surprise round (normally get one or the other, not both)

Deliquescent Gloves (8,000g: +d6 acid damage to each melee attack; various protections vs. oozes)

Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (5,000g: +1 luck bonus to AC, negate 1 critical hit OR sneak attack/day)


drbuzzard wrote:

There are two glaring problems with the build (beyond wasting time with vital strike and all that stuff- though really cleave isn't going to save any bacon here):

A) you don't have power attack- that is mandatory for a high damage build. On a two handed fighter at your level, you are leaving +18 damage on the table each time you swing your weapon. That's one hell of a lot of a gap.
B) You chose the unbreakable archetype which drops weapon training. My personal opinion of fighter archetypes is that if the archetype gets rid of weapon training it is a waste of time. You are leaving behind the best fighter class ability. With gloves of dueling (assuming they are available which they should be at level 20), that's another +6/+6 left at the door. Just that would offset the -to hit from power attack and add in more damage.

So just those two things would have a net effect versus your current build would be +24 damage per swing.

All of this is spot on.

drbuzzard wrote:
If you wanted to go whole hog on damage, you could pick up the two handed fighter archetype instead and your damage would spike even more (another +6/+12/+12/+12 for the full around attack damage bonuses).

Having seen this archtype in play I don't like what it trades away for a relatively it provides.

And snag a cloak of resistance.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Switch out stuff like Run, Endurance, and the Vital Strike line for Power Attack, Furious Focus, Stunning Assault, Critical Focus, and Stunning Critical.

Always Power Attack. When you close with an enemy, charge and use Stunning Assault. Furious Focus means you don't take the PA penalty on that attack, only the Stunning Assault penalty, which is mitigated by the +2 for charging and all the other bonuses to hit you have. The enemy should be stunned. Next round, turn off Stunning Assault and take a full attack. Nothing should survive that.

Consider swapping speed, thundering, and ghost touch for impact. Impact increases base damage dice, which get multiplied on criticals.

Have a bard buddy keeping inspire courage, good hope, and haste up on you.

Have a way to fly and a way to ignore things like invisibility, displacement, and mirror image. Robe of eyes works for that, and iirc there's some kind of lenses of true seeing.

Your mantra should be to stack as many damage adds that get multiplied on critical hits, then crit as often as possible.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Quick suggestions:

  • In General: When building a high level character, you want to be fairly focused on your feat use, and fairly general on your item purchases (too much to gain from medium cost items, such as at that headband you have). You've got this pretty well handled.
  • Knock off the feats for Greataxe. Keep a +1 Greataxe around - magic backup weapon is good. I'd recommend a non-slashing weapon, but that's your call.
  • Use the spare feats for something broader, maybe something using the skills you get maxed from the headband (it gives two maxed skills, instead of skill points for the higher Int). Perhaps Dazzling Display w/Intimidate? Could also take Shatter Defenses, and maybe squeeze in Deadly Stroke if you like. *Do* take Power Attack as recommended, somehow.
  • Use the Wish money for mobility options, and things that can get your friends (or yourself) out of a jam. Pale Green ioun stone is great option as well for almost everything.
  • I don't see Greater Weapon Focus (Falchion) on the list, but I see Greater Pen Strike twice.

    Attack bonus should be:
    +20 (BAB) +5 (magic) +2 (gtr wpn focus) +9 (Str) +1 (pale green) -6 (power attack) = +31/+26/+21/+16, for damage of:
    2d4 + 5 (magic) +4 (gtr wpn spec) +13 (Str) +18 (power attack) = 2d4+40. If you move, Gtr Vital Strike for 8d4+46 (+6 to confirm crit) (avg ~66, 82 with crits).

    Enjoy!

    Edit: And I have to disagree with the rest - Ghost Touch is very nice to have at very high levels - halving your damage against incorporeals (most of whom have much higher hit-points than they used to) is incredibly painful - especially since they tend to prevent full-attacks by darting into solid objects. You can ready a vital strike for them, and even crit them with ghost touch.


  • Let's look at your build.

    20th human unbreakable fighter(loses Weapon Training and Weapon Master, therefore lots of damage Damage, if you wanna deal damage just be a Two-Handed Weapon Fighter. On the other hand if you are afraid of some save or sucks and wanna keep the archetype, it's fine IMO)

    stats:
    str 20 +6+5+5=36/+12 (Wish and Manual don't stack/did you put your stat pints for level up?)
    dex 16 +6+4=26/+6
    con 18 +6+4+2=28/+8
    int 18 +4=22/+6
    wis 17 +4=21/+6
    cha 14 +4= 18/+4

    HPs: 326
    fort +12+7+19
    ref +6+6+2+14
    will +6+3+2 +11

    permamancied spells on troy
    darkvision
    toungues
    arcane sight
    comprehend languages
    read magic(those are all nice and useful, maybe get Enlarge Person too if you don't mind being a giant)

    feats:
    lightning reflexes - not needed, Reflex saves aren't important
    iron will - keep it, being mind controlled is annoying
    endurance - Bonus Feat
    diehard - Bonus Feat
    toughness - ok feat, can be replaced if you find somthing better
    run - useless, even more useless at high levels with all those teleports around
    weapon focus falcion - Falchion is a good weapon, if you change into Two-Handed Weapon Fighter though a Scythe or something similar are better from lvl 19 on due to Devastating Blow.
    imp crit falcion - Maybe buy Keen on your Weapon instead
    imp crit great axe - WHY?
    dodge - rather below average, only take as perequisite
    vital strike - situational, rather remove it, you want to FULL ATTACK
    devastating strike - better replace the entire feat chain
    imp vital strike - xeah away with this
    throw anything - flavorful, but really weak
    imp devastating strike - nah throw it out
    penetrating strike - It's good, either keep it or make your weapon HOLY
    greater pen strike - ""
    greater vital strike - Well
    improvised weapon mastery - It's cool, but not strong unless you GM loves to kidnap you and steal your weapons
    gtr wpn spec falchion - keep it, you want damage
    weapon focus gt axe - One Weapon type is enough, especially since both are slashing Weapons
    improved unarmed combat - not needed
    greater pen strike - posted twice
    weapon spec falchion - keep it

    Feats you should take: POWER ATTACK( +18 damage never play without it), Critical Focus(as a Fighter with a high crit Range Weapon its nice), Stunning Critical, Critcal Mastery+Bleeding Critical(maybe)

    Other Feats to Consider: STep-Up + Step Up and Strike, Lunge+Combat Reflexes, Deadly Stroke+Perequisites(better than Vital Strike), Combat Expertise+Improved Trip+Greater Improved Trip+Vicious Stomp(good if your GM likes Humanoid oponents), Big Game Hunter, Disruptive, Deadly Aim(for versatility if you got the slot), Stunning Assault

    equipment

    +5 falchion of speed, thundering and ghost touch(I'd remove thundering, maybe Speeed if your group members are nice enough to cast Haste often, Ghost Touch could go unless you await many ghosts)
    +2 greataxe(Buy a Mighty Composite Longbow)
    belt of perfection +6 (str, dex, con) - yep you need this
    headband of mental superiority +4(a Headband of Wisdom+6 will help you more)
    Invincible armor -Interesting effect, though it doesn't stack with your Armor Mastery, which already gives DR 5/-, therefore consider a straight +5 Armor, istead
    ring of protection +5 - nothing wrong here
    amulet of natural armor +5 - keep this too

    manual of bodily health +4 (+4 to con) - replace with wishes if GM lets you since those two don't stack, it's cheaper
    Manual of gailful exercise +5 (+5 to str) - again here
    headband of mental superiority +4(you only need Wis for your Will save)

    handy haversack - useful keep it
    battering ram - is this a magic item I don'tz know or are you carrying a real battering ram around?
    sewing kit - Everyone needs a hobby
    adventurers kit - yeah yeah
    climbing kit - buy some magic item to fly instead
    daggers x6 - carry them with you, maybe you need them once

    {purchased}
    5xwish for str +5
    2xwish for con +2 -just get full Con Bonus here

    Items you should buy: Magic Bow, Something to fly, Cloak of Resisrtance+5, Wayfinder+Clear Spindle(if your GM allows it).

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Rapthorn2ndform wrote:


    4. Vital strike is a TRAP.

    Vital Strike is NOT a trap. It is a recognition of the basic fact that you're not always going to get your iteratives. You'll frequently have to move before you strike and if all you have is an attack action, then it's your opportunity to squeeze some more damage out of it. It's especially juicy if your weapon has some healty size damage dice to it, i.e. you're a greatsword fighter.


    I wouldn't say Vital Strike is a trap, but is it worth it? Might as well get combat reflexes, pin down, stand still, etc. instead. Rather than making non-full-attacks better, they make full attacks happen more often (by preventing enemies from getting away). Combine with the disruptive/spellbreaker feats or anything that gives you a size/reach increase for added hilarity.


    Vital strike is a trap in that the opportunity cost is high. There are just better options out there to spend a limited resource upon.

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

    if you/he takes the 2handed fighter archetype it alleviates much or all of the need for vital strike (when playing at this level)- devastating blow multiplies everything (not just base dice) and triggers your crit feats! even more worthwhile if you switch to a weapon with a higher crit multiplier.

    actually, if you wanted to make a 'swing for the fences' guy you could build with a tetsubo and attack 1/round (using devastating strike) for around 5d10+345 (thanks to weapon mastery auto-confirming crits, and increasing multiplier to x5)

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