Does Mage Armor and Armor Enhancement stack?


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Sczarni

Let's say I have a +1 Padded Armor. It's Armor enhancement bonus is a +5, but it's Armor is still +1.

Would Mage Armor(+4+ add onto the Armor(+1) for another +3(Mage Armor Minus the Armor Value)?


How does a +1 padded armor have +5 enhancement bonus? That would make it a +5 padded armor.


Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
Would Mage Armor(+4+ add onto the Armor(+1) for another +3(Mage Armor Minus the Armor Value)?

I'm not sure what you would say, but yes, Mage armor (which gives you armor bonus to AC) stacks with the enhancement bonus, but the armor bons from the padded armor and the armor bonus from Mage Armor don't stack.

So, if you have your padded armor +3 and Mage armor, you would have the following:
4 (Mage armor) + 3 (enhancement bonus) + Dex

At least, this is how I read/play that. A double-check would be useful.


A little confused on your math - +1 Padded Armor would grant a total bonus of +2 to AC, so I'm not certain where you're getting a +5.

I'm fairly certain the intent is that you gain the benefit only from the highest source. So in your example, Mage Armor would grant a +4 armor bonus - greater than the padded armor - and so it would be the one in effect.


Mage armour with a +1 padded armor would result in a +4 armour bonus from mage armour and a +1 enhancement bonus from the padded armour, net result is +5 AC


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Non magical padded armor provides an AC of 1. +1 Padded Armor provides an AC of 2. Mage Armor provides a +4 Armor Bonus to AC.

The ehancement bonus to AC only affects the armor, it does not in any way interact with Mage Armor. It's enhances the armor's base AC.

So, you could choose to utilize either, but they would not stack in any way. So, you can +2 AC total from your +1 Padded armor or +4 AC total from Mage Armor.

Edit:
I think the main problem is people think that the enhancement bonus to the padded armor somehow affects the Mage Armor. It doesn't as far as I'm aware and never has. Except perhaps in wishful minds.


Incorrect. The enhancement bonus affects the armor bonus granted by the armor, rather than affecting your AC directly.

Edit:Ninja'd Ninja'd! This is in response to Talcrion.


Enhancement bonuses increase the AC of the affected armor. Multiple armors do not stack.

Similarly, if you wore +5 padded armor and nonmagical full platemail, you would choose the larger of the two total bonuses; you would not simply mix-and-match the biggest Armor enhancement bonus with the biggest Armor bonus to AC.


So the question seems to be: Does the enhancement bonus is a modifier to the armor bonus given by the armor, or is it a enhancement bonus to the character AC ?

RAW, I think it is the second part. RAI... I don't know.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

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The +1 on your armor is not a separate bonus type. It just increases the armor bonus from the armor.

So the +1 padded armor gives you a +2 armor bonus to AC.
Mage Armor gives you a +4 armor bonus to AC.
Since they're both armor bonuses, they don't stack. You only get the highest (+4)


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From the Armor Class - Modifers section:

Other Modifiers[/quote wrote:

Many other factors modify your AC.

Enhancement Bonuses

Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.

So the enhancement bonus is not to your AC. The enhancement bonus is to the armor bonus of the armor itself, not to your AC, so if you aren't gaining the benefit of the armor, you aren't gaining the enhancement bonus either.


The only rules I found is this one:
[quote: "UEquipment, PRD"]Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses)

Enhancement bonus stacks with armor bonus, and are separate modifiers.

Quote:
Similarly, if you wore +5 padded armor and nonmagical full platemail, you would choose the larger of the two total bonuses; you would not simply mix-and-match the biggest Armor enhancement bonus with the biggest Armor bonus to AC.

You can't equip 2 armors, as far as I know (Ha, I remember there is an exception, I need to reread the armors).

Anyone have some rules ?


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From the combat chapter of the CRB:

Quote:
Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.


Didn't see that!

Thank you!

Liberty's Edge

Let us assume the Medium character has 14 DEX, so has +2 to AC from DEX. If the character is wearing +1 padded armor, his AC is 14 (10 + 2 DEX + 2 armor). If the same character now becomes the target of a Mage Armor spell, his AC changes to 16 (10 + 2 DEX + 4 armor).

A character wearing +1 breastplate (for example) would gain no benefit from Mage Armor, except against incorporeal creatures. Mage Armor is a force effect, and so provides protection against incorporeals, which ordinary armor does not.

Sczarni

My apologies. I've been doing a lot of server configuring today and it left my mind a little battered.
What I meant was a Padded Armor with a +5 Enhancement Bonus.

So, my AC gain would only be a +8 total right?

Mage Armor doesn't stack with Armor, but stacks with Armor Bonus right?


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Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

My apologies. I've been doing a lot of server configuring today and it left my mind a little battered.

What I meant was a Padded Armor with a +5 Enhancement Bonus.

So I take it, that this would leave me with +8 AC, based on just these two items. Is this correct?

No. The Enhancement Bonus on the Padded Armor applies to the Padded Armor. It does not apply to your character. You'd get +6 to your AC from the Padded Armor or +4 to your AC from the Mage Armor.

You cannot wear magical armor, then have the enhancement bonus apply to the Mage Armor spell. Xaratherus and Paladin both gave the rules citation above.


Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

My apologies. I've been doing a lot of server configuring today and it left my mind a little battered.

What I meant was a Padded Armor with a +5 Enhancement Bonus.

So, my AC gain would only be a +8 total right?

Mage Armor doesn't stack with Armor, but stacks with Armor Bonus right?

I'm not sure what two "items" you're talking about but if you're referring to the +5 Padded armor and Mage Armor, then no.

+5 Padded Armor would add a total of +6 armor bonus to your AC. Mage Armor would add a +4 armor bonus to your AC, but same bonus types don't stack. So you get the best of either. So you would have +6 armor bonus against regular attacks and +4 against incorporeal attacks.

Unless you're counting your Dex bonus (which you haven't mentioned this far) you would not have a bonus of 8.

Sczarni

Okay. Fully Understood now.

Thanks everyone!


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Well, it appears I was wrong, Oh well, never a bad day when you learn something new ^_^

Well rats, apparently I can't edit my old post so it's not giving misinformation.

Shadow Lodge

Claxon wrote:
So you would have +6 armor bonus against regular attacks and +4 against incorporeal attacks.

Ironically this came up in a game 48 hours ago... it didn't factor in as the incorporeal creature never swung against someone who was affected by mage armor, but some in-game search-fu by various folks didn't turn anything conclusive up.

Say someone was wearing/has the following 3 effects at once:
+1 deathless quilted armor
+2 breastplate
mage armor

I've always ruled that the highest armor works, and all other armors don't count, at all.

Thus, the +2 breastplate effectively deactivates the quilted armor's deathless benefit, as well as it's DR versus arrows, as well as the mage armor and any benefit it may impart vs incorporeal (since it was a rider effect).

Clear confirmation of what happens here would be appreciated for future bookmarking.


There's no reason why Mage Armor and +2 Breastplate can't be working at the same time. They're overlapping effects. So while you don't see the both of them functioning at the same time, they are both operating. The +2 Breastplate ordinarily will have the greater effect, so that's the one you'll typically see operating. But when you run into incorporeal creatures and the +2 Breastplate is no longer useful (effectively giving an armor bonus of +0 at that point), the Mage Armor will still function because, for that particular attack, it grants the highest relevant bonus of the overlapping effects.


wakedown wrote:
Claxon wrote:
So you would have +6 armor bonus against regular attacks and +4 against incorporeal attacks.

Ironically this came up in a game 48 hours ago... it didn't factor in as the incorporeal creature never swung against someone who was affected by mage armor, but some in-game search-fu by various folks didn't turn anything conclusive up.

Say someone was wearing/has the following 3 effects at once:
+1 deathless quilted armor
+2 breastplate
mage armor

I've always ruled that the highest armor works, and all other armors don't count, at all.

Thus, the +2 breastplate effectively deactivates the quilted armor's deathless benefit, as well as it's DR versus arrows, as well as the mage armor and any benefit it may impart vs incorporeal (since it was a rider effect).

Clear confirmation of what happens here would be appreciated for future bookmarking.

In this situation; the quilted armor and all its abilities would not work; not the breastplate.

The Mage Amor is a spell effect not really armor so it's still active But it armor bonus overlaps with the armor bonus from the armor....so the breastplate is the one providing the armor bonus. The +2 only affects the breastplate.

So you still only have +8 AC...

Shadow Lodge

fretgod99 wrote:
... because, for that particular attack, it grants the highest relevant bonus of the overlapping effects.

I understand this interpretation (and I'm not saying its wrong) - but is there any evidence (dev postings, rule quotes) that backs up the resolution of conflicting bonuses occurring when the attack happens versus when the conflicting bonuses come into effect against one another?

Up to present date (and going forward until I find something concrete), I've always ruled that the moment you apply the conflicting bonus (such as by donning the magic breastplate), it deactivated all powers from the lesser bonus (such as the underlying +1 deathless quilted armor, the +1 bracers, etc) until that armor was removed. Essentially, the conflicting bonuses caused something akin to radio interference and disabled the lesser magic. There's nothing that describes the "interference" that I'm aware of, it's trying to describe why multiple armor bonuses don't stack with plausible reasoning in a magical world.

Thus, the same interpretation carried into how mage armor would work, just like a pair of +1 deathless bracers would work - all effects are turned off by the fullplate/breastplate/etc. Thus, you'd lose the protection vs death effects, negative energy, incorporeal attacks until the heavy armor was removed.

Anyone able to provide links/quotes to trump this?


multiple magic items on the body:
Of course, a character may carry or possess as many items of the same type as he wishes. However, additional items beyond those in the slots listed above have no effect.

The extra armor turns off and it matters what order you put it on. Only the first armors magic works. If it's non-magical the AC bonus' overlap.

Mage Armor isn't a magic item and therefore doesn't take up a body slot. Occupying the same body slot is why the other armors magic is de-activating. Mage Armor is instead a spell effect so this rule doesn't apply. But AC bonus' do not stack so if you're wearing anything with a higher AC bonus then 4; the higher bonus applies BUT since Mage Armor is still in affect you have still a +4 Bonus vs Incorporeal attacks.

Shadow Lodge

Let me reiterate I'm not arguing against you, I'm just trying to see where in the rules we have a clear path to a certain ruling.

Here's what I have (emphasis is mine):

Bonuses wrote:
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”) only the greater bonus granted applies.
Bonus (Armor) wrote:
An armor bonus applies to Armor Class and is granted by armor or by a spell or magical effect that mimics armor. Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses.
Mage Armor wrote:
An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, providing a +4 armor bonus to AC.

If someone is wearing a breastplate and has mage armor cast on them, I look at the above and it would seem that its reasonable that mage armor provides zero bonuses to anything and that only the greater armor bonus (from the breastplate) affects the wearer's armor and renders mage armor useless unless said armor is broken/sundered.

Bracers of Armor wrote:
Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

Bracers of armor has this text added (I haven't checked yet if this sentence was added in UE or existed as early as Core), which seems to imply if you were wearing Bracers of Armor +5, you'd get zilch from Mage Armor. I'm not sure why ordinary armor and mage armor would have a different relationship than bracers and mage armor (except to give us more exceptions to keep track of).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
wakedown wrote:

Let me reiterate I'm not arguing against you, I'm just trying to see where in the rules we have a clear path to a certain ruling.

Here's what I have (emphasis is mine):

Bonuses wrote:
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”) only the greater bonus granted applies.
Bonus (Armor) wrote:
An armor bonus applies to Armor Class and is granted by armor or by a spell or magical effect that mimics armor. Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses.
Mage Armor wrote:
An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, providing a +4 armor bonus to AC.
If someone is wearing a breastplate and has mage armor cast on them, I look at the above and it would seem that its reasonable that mage armor provides zero bonuses to anything and that only the greater armor bonus (from the breastplate) affects the wearer's armor and renders mage armor useless unless said armor is broken/sundered.

The Mage Armor in this case is worthless unless you are attacekd by something that ignores corporeal armor sources but not force effects, like a ghost. The Mage armor in this case provides a bigger armor bonus against the attack than the armor.


But mage armor doesn't stop working; there is no reason why it should.

It doesn't add to existing armor bonus' so it doesn't apply since it overlaps...

So from your example....

Since you put on Deathless Padded Armor+1(+2 AC) first it is the only magic that works....

The Breastplate+2 since its put on second loses it's magical enhancent and only provides +6 AC bonus; since this physical AC overlaps the first armor you still have a +6 AC....

If you cast Mage Armor it's a spell effect NOT AN ITEM so no reason for it to turn off. It only provides a +4 AC bonus though so your +6 from your Breastplate still trumps it but against an incorporeal touch attack which Breastplate won't protect you from you HAVE a +4 to AC....

so in the end...

+6 AC (with the Deathless affect)
+4 AC verses incorporeal attacks.

Shadow Lodge

MrCab wrote:
The Mage Armor in this case is worthless unless you are attacekd by something that ignores corporeal armor sources but not force effects, like a ghost. The Mage armor in this case provides a bigger armor bonus against the attack than the armor.

I appreciate you re-stating one of the two interpretations and am not disagreeing with this interpretation.

I'll go back to my question, though...

Do you have anything to support this -- that the armor bonus is determined at the time an incoming attack occurs rather than when the secondary armor effect is applied to a creature?

(RAI is fine if there's no RAW for it)

Shadow Lodge

Static Hamster wrote:
If you cast Mage Armor it's a spell effect NOT AN ITEM so no reason for it to turn off.

Except, look at the section I bolded from the "Bonus (armor)" section which seems to effectively say to treat all sources of armor bonuses as "sources of armor bonus" and to not differentiate them if they come from a spell or an item.

I'll reiterate once again, I'm looking for somewhere in the rules that provides for an alternate interpretation in your case, where it suggests armor from a magic effect and armor from an item should indeed be treated differently in some way.


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The bolded part refers to the overlap....that it doesn't matter that the +4 is from mage armor it's still treated as any other AC bonus.

I provided then relevant quote. The reason that the magical effects turn off isn't because they provide overlapping armor bonus but because they fill the same slot.

Magic Armor doesn't fill interfere with a slot therefore is not affected.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

Let's say I have a +1 Padded Armor. It's Armor enhancement bonus is a +5, but it's Armor is still +1.

Would Mage Armor(+4+ add onto the Armor(+1) for another +3(Mage Armor Minus the Armor Value)?

The +1 Padded Armor has an Armor Bonus To AC. (there is no such thing as an "armor enhancement bonus to ac". Mage Armor has an Armor Bonus to AC.

Being the exact same type of bonus, they do not stack. The higher value overlaps the lesser.


Static Hamster wrote:

But mage armor doesn't stop working; there is no reason why it should.

It doesn't add to existing armor bonus' so it doesn't apply since it overlaps...

So from your example....

Since you put on Deathless Padded Armor+1(+2 AC) first it is the only magic that works....

The Breastplate+2 since its put on second loses it's magical enhancent and only provides +6 AC bonus; since this physical AC overlaps the first armor you still have a +6 AC....

If you cast Mage Armor it's a spell effect NOT AN ITEM so no reason for it to turn off. It only provides a +4 AC bonus though so your +6 from your Breastplate still trumps it but against an incorporeal touch attack which Breastplate won't protect you from you HAVE a +4 to AC....

so in the end...

+6 AC (with the Deathless affect)
+4 AC verses incorporeal attacks.

It turns off because the game only allows the armor bonus from one source to be in affect. Either "real" armor turns off, or the spell has no affect.

The game specifically says " only the greater bonus granted applies." It does NOT say if the greater bonus is from a spell it can still apply. So either it applies or it does not. There is no in between. So if mage armor is the lesser bonus it does not apply.

Do I think it makes sense, assuming mage armor were a real thing? No, I don't, but what I think should work if fantasy land was real has nothing to do with what the rules are.

Silver Crusade

The (new) note on Bracers of Armour only apply to Bracers of Armour interacting with magical armour. It is not a general statement, so the mage armour spell works as normal when combined with either magic item.

Note that 'normal' in this case means that the armour bonuses from these sources do not ever stack, but the spell still exists and will still help your AC versus incorporeal attacks.

As others have pointed out, RAW and RAI:

* worn armour provides an armour bonus to AC

* an enhancement bonus to worn armour does not directly affect a creatures AC; it just makes that worn armour's armour bonus bigger

A non-magical breastplate provides a +6 armour bonus to the AC of the creature wearing it. A magical +5 breastplate provides a +11 armour bonus to the AC of the creature wearing it.

Neither will stack with the +4 armour bonus to AC provided by the spell mage armour, because bonuses of the same type do not stack; they are all armour bonuses to AC.

Shadow Lodge

I still see posts going either way (I read Malachi/Hamster on one interpretation and wraithstrike on another). Despite conviction on either side, I'm still in the hunt for a reference that mage armor's incorporeal bonus would apply when another armor with a greater bonus is negating the mage armor.

Case #1.
A single creature wears Deathless Bracers of Armor +1 and Mage Armor. It appears crystal clear that they get zero benefit of the deathless effect of the bracers. The higher armor bonus from Mage Armor trumps the Bracers of Armor +1 and thus deactivates all benefits of the bracers.

Case #2.
A single creature wears Deathless Bracers of Armor +5 and Mage Armor. It would seem that the simplest interpretation is to take the converse of Case #1 and that the Mage Armor is completely deactivated by bracers since the bracers have the higher armor bonus. And as part of this deactivation, the bonus against incorporeal attacks goes away as well.

Case #3.
A single creature wears a Breastplate and Mage Armor. I suspect this is the same as Case #2 to keep things simple (and zero benefit is derived from mage armor including the incorporeal bonus), and that's how I've been playing it for ages. I'm totally open to being convinced otherwise, but I'd need something in a book, FAQ or developer forum post to understand why Mage Armor is the exceptional case - when it has no text within the spell to indicate it's an exception to the rule that seems to govern all other combinations of armor bonuses.

For the folks who seem pretty convinced that #3 (and possibly #2) are incorrect, do you have something that shows that mage armor should be treated differently?

Shadow Lodge

Interesting, I suppose this actually creates a use for "offensive Mage Armor".

If you know you have an enemy wearing Light Fortification Quilted Cloth +1 or Deathless Bracers of Armor +1 (or anything with a +3 armor bonus or less), you can offensively cast Mage Armor on them to turn off their fortification/deathless/etc benefits.

I was a bit surprised to see Mage Armor as printed has a saving throw, so perhaps this is a "trick" that's been in the system's consciousness for some while?

Silver Crusade

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Although the specific combination of magical armour and bracers of armour have a 'de-activation' clause, this in no way affects any other item or any spell at all.

Mage armour is not 'de-activated' in any way by worn armour, magical or otherwise. The spell and its effects remain in place for the duration of the spell. It's just that the armour bonus to AC provided by the spell never stacks with the armour bonus to AC provided by worn armour (or Bracers or any other armour bonus to AC), so it might as well not be there, but it is still actually there, and you'll be glad of it when targeted by an incorporeal touch attack!


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

The (new) note on Bracers of Armour only apply to Bracers of Armour interacting with magical armour. It is not a general statement, so the mage armour spell works as normal when combined with either magic item.

Note that 'normal' in this case means that the armour bonuses from these sources do not ever stack, but the spell still exists and will still help your AC versus incorporeal attacks.

As others have pointed out, RAW and RAI:

* worn armour provides an armour bonus to AC

* an enhancement bonus to worn armour does not directly affect a creatures AC; it just makes that worn armour's armour bonus bigger

A non-magical breastplate provides a +6 armour bonus to the AC of the creature wearing it. A magical +5 breastplate provides a +11 armour bonus to the AC of the creature wearing it.

Neither will stack with the +4 armour bonus to AC provided by the spell mage armour, because bonuses of the same type do not stack; they are all armour bonuses to AC.

RAW says only one armor bonus applies. They said nothing about magic items, or spells. Does the mage armor spell not provide an armor bonus? If it does then how is it being applied when the rules say one Armor bonus or another, without saying spells get a free pass?


As a GM, I would have no problem with someone putting mage armour up, whilst already having another armour source active, so they could boost their AC vs incorporeal attacks.

However, as Wraithstrike and others have pointed out, the rules do not support that interpretation. If the spell description gave an exception to the general rule, then it could be applied.

Applying 'common sense logic' indicates that there is no real reason why it should not work for the reasons given above (mage armour doesn't actually take a slot, etc), but the rules don't. As I said in my first sentence, I would allow it, but as a house rule.


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Armor/Shield Bonus wrote:
Each type of armor grants an armor bonus to AC, while shields grant a shield bonus to AC. The armor bonus from a suit of armor doesn't stack with other effects or items that grant an armor bonus. Similarly, the shield bonus from a shield doesn't stack with other effects that grant a shield bonus.

"Doesn't stack" is not the same as "can only benefit from one".

It's quite clear they overlap, except in the case of BoA.

Have I missed the stipulation being talked about somewhere else in the rules?


Archaeik is right.

Your crystal clear case 1 is even wrong. Just because mage armors bonus is higher doesn't mean it deactivates the lower armor. You gain the full benefits of both. A +4 AC, protection from incorporeal attacks, and deathless.


From bracers of armor

If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

It says source of armor. Not armor. Mage armor is a source.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

From bracers of armor

If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

It says source of armor. Not armor. Mage armor is a source.

OK. It would seem that's totally true for Bracers. Only the Bracers though. This isn't how it works in general.

Shadow Lodge

Now that we're in agreement that case #1 is crystal clear... why does Mage Armor get an exception in case #2?

I'm very much okay with folks saying "as a house rule I'd allow mage armor to give incorporeal protection". For folks who think this is how the rules intend for it to be, I'm still looking for that elusive rules reference, FAQ or quote that either states or implies that.

Once again, I present:

Bonus (Armor) (SRD) wrote:
An armor bonus applies to Armor Class and is granted by armor or by a spell or magical effect that mimics armor. Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses. An armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks, except for armor bonuses granted by force effects (such as the mage armor spell) which apply against incorporeal touch attacks, such as that of a shadow.

So, you've got Mage Armor. Mage Armor provides a single +4 armor bonus to AC. It's not worded as different bonuses. It's a single +4 armor bonus that also happens to apply to incorporeal attacks.

Now, this person puts on a breastplate. Taking a look at the rules for bonuses, what does this mean?

Bonus (Core, pg 11) wrote:
Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not "stack") - only the greater bonus granted applies.

This seems to be pretty clear, only the breastplate's greater armor bonus now applies, meaning the armor bonus from Mage Armor doesn't apply. If the Mage Armor bonus no longer applies (and the benefit versus incorporeal that is "riding" along with it) - this character just gave up incorporeal protection by wearing a breastplate.

To interpret this another way, we'd need something in the rules that says the determination of an applicable effect happens instantaneously when a stimulus comes into contact with that effect instead of when those effects become active on a target.


I'm not in agreement that your case #1 is crystal clear. In fact I think it's just plain wrong.

The Incorporeal property of the mage armor spell is not 'riding' on the armor bonus. It's an effect of the Mage Armor spell.

Doesn't stack means that it overlaps any lesser armor bonus it doesn't mean any of the other effects turn off.

We don't need another rule. You have them all right there...

Bonus (Armor) wrote:
Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses.

You have Breatplate (+6) you have Mage Armor (+4). Since two armor bonuses don't stack you take the greater so you have AC +6.

There is nothing there that says Mage Armor turns off. It's still there but underneath the +6....

Bonus (Armor) wrote:
An armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks, except for armor bonuses granted by force effects (such as the mage armor spell) which apply against incorporeal touch attacks, such as that of a shadow.

Mage Armor provides an Armor Bonus with a Force effect. The armor bonus is not attached to the force effect IT is the strength of the force effect. So with the Breastplate on you still have a +4 vs touch attacks.

Liberty's Edge

wakedown wrote:


I'll reiterate once again, I'm looking for somewhere in the rules that provides for an alternate interpretation in your case, where it suggests armor from a magic effect and armor from an item should indeed be treated differently in some way.

Show me the rule that says that mage armor is dismissed merely by wearing armor that grants a +4 or greater AC bonus.

Silver Crusade

wakedown wrote:

Now that we're in agreement that case #1 is crystal clear... why does Mage Armor get an exception in case #2?

I'm very much okay with folks saying "as a house rule I'd allow mage armor to give incorporeal protection". For folks who think this is how the rules intend for it to be, I'm still looking for that elusive rules reference, FAQ or quote that either states or implies that.

Once again, I present:

Bonus (Armor) (SRD) wrote:
An armor bonus applies to Armor Class and is granted by armor or by a spell or magical effect that mimics armor. Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses. An armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks, except for armor bonuses granted by force effects (such as the mage armor spell) which apply against incorporeal touch attacks, such as that of a shadow.

So, you've got Mage Armor. Mage Armor provides a single +4 armor bonus to AC. It's not worded as different bonuses. It's a single +4 armor bonus that also happens to apply to incorporeal attacks.

Now, this person puts on a breastplate. Taking a look at the rules for bonuses, what does this mean?

Bonus (Core, pg 11) wrote:
Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not "stack") - only the greater bonus granted applies.

This seems to be pretty clear, only the breastplate's greater armor bonus now applies, meaning the armor bonus from Mage Armor doesn't apply. If the Mage Armor bonus no longer applies (and the benefit versus incorporeal that is "riding" along with it) - this character just gave up incorporeal protection by wearing a breastplate.

To interpret this another way, we'd need something in the rules that says the determination of an applicable effect happens instantaneously when a stimulus comes into contact with that effect instead of when those effects become active on a target.

You're missing the last piece of the puzzle

The CRB wrote:
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.

You can have as many amour bonuses to your AC operating as you like! Most of it is pointless, because they never stack. However, the fact that they don't stack does not act like a dispel magic!

Your AC is calculated. It seems like it should be a single value at any time, but this is not really the case, you can have different AC values to different attacks.

Don't believe me? Look at your character sheet! You'll see three right there: AC, touch AC, flat-footed AC. All simultaneously true, none negating the other.

With a more comprehensive character sheet there would be a fourth: incorporeal touch AC, which would be the same as touch AC but would include any armour bonus to AC from any force effect and none from cover, just like it says in the rules.

Shadow Lodge

HangarFlying wrote:

Show me the rule that says that mage armor is dismissed merely by wearing armor that grants a +4 or greater AC bonus.

Dismissed is dangerous word choice since it can be confused with a wizard actually dismissing a spell.

The rules would phrase it: "Does not apply".

Once again:

Bonuses (Core, pg11) wrote:
Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not "stack") - only the greater bonus granted applies.

Breastplate provides a +6 armor bonus.

Mage Armor provides a +4 armor bonus (that also works vs incorporeal).

Because only the breatplate's greater armor bonus applies, Mage Armor's armor bonus "does not apply".

If you're not getting any armor bonus applying from Mage Armor, it's essentially +0. Your incorporeal protection is equal to the numeric bonus you have from Mage Armor, which at this point is +0. Which means, no protection.

The missing puzzle piece to allow Mage Armor to work for an incorporeal attack is something that indicates that bonuses are resolved and recalculated instantaneously when a specific attack occurs. Which again, is the point of my original question - looking for this source/reference - if it exists.


against incorporeal attacks your breastplate provides 0 to your armor class and mage armor provides a +4 bonus. mage armor provides the higher bonus so it is used. nothing stats that the mage armor spell is dismissed when wearing armor so it is still active.


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wakedown wrote:


If you're not getting any armor bonus applying from Mage Armor, it's essentially +0. Your incorporeal protection is equal to the numeric bonus you have from Mage Armor, which at this point is +0. Which means, no protection.

Here is where you're off.

You ARE getting an armor bonus for Mage armor but its does not stack with your bonus from Breastplate. You are told to instead take the greater armor bonus...Breastplate. This doesn't mean that Mage Armor is providing no protection; just that it is redundant...does not stack means it does not provide MORE protection.

Until you face a incorporeal touch attack which renders your breastplate useless....the attack goes through your armor to find the Mage Armor's force effect which is no longer redundant.

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