Goblin Squad Member
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TBH, we're getting really focused on Early Enrollment and what that feature set will look like, and things like caravans and SADs are a long way off, and will almost certainly be greatly affected by how the game evolves with Crowdforging as Early Enrollment begins. I don't think we'll probably write much more about those topics in the near future. They're out of scope for the work we need to be focused on.
That is unfortunate... That will make some of us create our own SAD system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I think, since they gave up the surprise of ambush and didn't go for the immediate deathblow which makes the game feel a little less hostile, upon being rejected and attacking the merchants they shouldn't lose *reputation*. They are still trying to hurt people for personal gain which is pretty dang Evil so there should still be an Evil shift. That's just the structural logic of the situation to me.
This logic seems sound. If the developers concur then I expect that those who intend to use SAD yet also intend to align lawful good will revisit their strategy to consider an alternative method to exert territorial control over neutral territory. With this in mind I favor that feuds between companies should have to rely on long-standing competition with other companies rather than something you can declare impromptu.
If you cannot tell just by examining someone which company a 'trespasser' on desired terrain belongs to (unless the feud or factional conflict is in progress and they are already 'red') then a company should be unable to whip out their feud list and declare just to remove the interloper.
Instituting such a rule should improve the prospects for 'freedom of movement' to neutrals.
I think it would be best in every way if detailed information about a character were withheld by the server unless there is a game-reason for it to share that information.
If I am high level and shepherding new players as they try to establish themselves it should prove cautionary to wolves that they don't have a way to recognize their increased risks when they are evaluating whether or not to prey upon the young. I'd rather they had to factor more rather than less unknown factors when considering whether to predate because they can't know I'm there. And if my battlefield prowess is something of a joke my being with them will also not be a flashing neon 'Diner' sign inviting predation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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TBH, we're getting really focused on Early Enrollment and what that feature set will look like, and things like caravans and SADs are a long way off, and will almost certainly be greatly affected by how the game evolves with Crowdforging as Early Enrollment begins. I don't think we'll probably write much more about those topics in the near future. They're out of scope for the work we need to be focused on.That is unfortunate... That will make some of us create our own SAD system.
There is one time in Darkfall, when I was alone and jumped by a "friendly" gank squad that they opened a trade window instead of just killing me. I put a generous offer in it and they left me alone after that.
Only one time, but it was very refreshing and different.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I've said before that Early Enrollment will shock people who are not following along and understanding the concept of the Minimum Viable Product. The product on the first day of Early Enrollment will be minimal. As in "the minimum needed to start playing".
You'll be able to make a character from a limited range of options, run around the world, and have fights with monsters and other characters. You'll gather some resources. You'll convert those resources to useable gear. The gear you get will be progressively more useful / powerful at fighting monsters and other characters. Your character will get more useful / powerful over time by training skills and earning merit badges. The kind of monsters you can fight, gear you can craft and character abilities you can earn will be limited.
That's Day One of Early Enrollment. Every day after Day One, more features will be added, more content using existing features will be added, and the game will get deeper and richer and more complex. The thing you want may not be scheduled for development for weeks or months or years. Our goal is to give people some sense of what that schedule looks like (in very, very broad strokes) so as to set their expectations reasonably.
This is brand new territory. Nobody has really tried the MVP approach to making an MMO before. The disconnect between what the game will be in the future and what it will be on the first day of Early Enrollment keeps me up at night.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Ryan
I think that most of us are on board and informed Ryan. Don't lose sleep. We do not expect a finished product at EE. If I can have some fun, help with input, and be around to see it get better all the time; I will be fine and I think that enough others interested in those things will be too.
Just make sure that your public announcement for EE is clear about that and it will mitigate a great deal of negative opinion. Take away their ammo before they try and load their guns. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want the world to feel vast, not just by the size of the map, but by the limitation of communication based on locality.
Local Knowledge is a key feat from PF RPG, and it should be equally important in PFO.
As explorers, merchants and other travelers expand their range and knowledge, more of the lands are revealed.
We should not know that a war has broken out, on the other side of the map, mere seconds or minutes after it has started. It should take time (in-game) for that news to spread.
Not to be annoying, but how technically is that possible - with extenant forums and chat services, there is almost certain to be large groups of people keeping up to date on major events across the game world. With the MMO being an open system, is this a realistic goal?
Edit: Wow, super late in the thread and totally irrelevant
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Ryan
I doubt you meant, literally, each day there would be growth? I'd think that is placing undue pressure to meet an unreasonable expectation that you could keep that up.
You have convinced me, I want to be there everyday for EE, I was debating waiting or perhaps taking a few breaks during the king haul of EE, not any more.
TBH, we're getting really focused on Early Enrollment and what that feature set will look like, and things like caravans and SADs are a long way off, and will almost certainly be greatly affected by how the game evolves with Crowdforging as Early Enrollment begins. I don't think we'll probably write much more about those topics in the near future. They're out of scope for the work we need to be focused on.That is unfortunate... That will make some of us create our own SAD system.
On the up side of this, it means UNC can totally test out all the other subsystems and work out the existing skills all ready to put SAD into action when it does arrive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is brand new territory. Nobody has really tried the MVP approach to making an MMO before. The disconnect between what the game will be in the future and what it will be on the first day of Early Enrollment keeps me up at night.
While maybe true for MMOs Minecraft and Steam Early Access say you will be fine. In addition to that the fact that we, the players, have become cynical and confrontational at each other rather then you devs says you will be fine, also.
Now have a good nights sleep and relax while I stress myself out about tomorrow's exam.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the up side of this, it means UNC can totally test out all the other subsystems and work out the existing skills all ready to put SAD into action when it does arrive.TBH, we're getting really focused on Early Enrollment and what that feature set will look like, and things like caravans and SADs are a long way off, and will almost certainly be greatly affected by how the game evolves with Crowdforging as Early Enrollment begins. I don't think we'll probably write much more about those topics in the near future. They're out of scope for the work we need to be focused on.That is unfortunate... That will make some of us create our own SAD system.
I agree about waiting on SADs. A SAD's real value is in gaining reputation. Until the reputation system is in place, there is no purpose in using a SAD.
I might even consider laying low for months or even a year or more through EE, before really pushing forward with the UNC agenda.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Ryan
I think that most of us are on board and informed Ryan. :)
The problem is, that "most of us", is probably something like 200 people.
The rest of the several thousand Early Enrollers that will come into action once they get the email, may start all kinds of "disappointed at the current state of PFO" threads all over the internet and there is almost no way to stop that.
I am sure that the emails that will inform them that EE is about to happen will contain a lot of disclaimers and warnings about the state of the game, however these people have indeed not been "following along" and may sort off gloss over that.
I have been following along, and even I am preparing myself for the fact that I may get frustrated by the lack of features and will skip (large) parts of EE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the up side of this, it means UNC can totally test out all the other subsystems and work out the existing skills all ready to put SAD into action when it does arrive.TBH, we're getting really focused on Early Enrollment and what that feature set will look like, and things like caravans and SADs are a long way off, and will almost certainly be greatly affected by how the game evolves with Crowdforging as Early Enrollment begins. I don't think we'll probably write much more about those topics in the near future. They're out of scope for the work we need to be focused on.That is unfortunate... That will make some of us create our own SAD system.I agree about waiting on SADs. A SAD's real value is in gaining reputation. Until the reputation system is in place, there is no purpose in using a SAD.
I might even consider laying low for months or even a year or more through EE, before really pushing forward with the UNC agenda.
Agreed, on both parts. Play with what we have available and get serious when we are able.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan,
For what it's worth, I think it'll be absolutely fine as long as you guys are highly visable (as you have been on the boards here) and are seen to be doing stuff on a regular basis. The area that I think other Developers have stumbled when releasing rough products is that they then have seemed to disappear for long periods of time. Maybe they are franticaly working on improvements to thier games but no one knows it because the Developers aren't heard from and nothing is seen in the game, so players assume the worst. As long as you make it clear that's not happening, I think you'll be fine. It's when communication stops and players aren't seeing regular improvements....even small ones when things get dicey. My 2 coppers anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So long as the updates keep coming in to improve the game, I think you will be fine. What kills a lot of groups doing a similar thing is that they go months without new updates and players start wondering if they ever plan to finish. Daily updates may or may not be overkill. I have really good internet, but those who don't may grow frustrated with long waits to play a game every day as they download new updates. A weekly cadence is usually a sweet spot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So long as the updates keep coming in to improve the game, I think you will be fine. What kills a lot of groups doing a similar thing is that they go months without new updates and players start wondering if they ever plan to finish. Daily updates may or may not be overkill. I have really good internet, but those who don't may grow frustrated with long waits to play a game every day as they download new updates. A weekly cadence is usually a sweet spot.
Daily isn't important, just regular. They seem to be doing good on their promise to date in releasing the blog - that stability is what is refreshing and builds confidence.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You'll be able to make a character from a limited range of options, run around the world, and have fights with monsters and other characters. You'll gather some resources. You'll convert those resources to useable gear. The gear you get will be progressively more useful / powerful at fighting monsters and other characters. Your character will get more useful / powerful over time by training skills and earning merit badges. The kind of monsters you can fight, gear you can craft and character abilities you can earn will be limited.
The only thing I see missing from that is the basic Reputation and Alignment system, with some minimal flagging options.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You'll be able to make a character from a limited range of options, run around the world, and have fights with monsters and other characters. You'll gather some resources. You'll convert those resources to useable gear. The gear you get will be progressively more useful / powerful at fighting monsters and other characters. Your character will get more useful / powerful over time by training skills and earning merit badges. The kind of monsters you can fight, gear you can craft and character abilities you can earn will be limited.The only thing I see missing from that is the basic Reputation and Alignment system, with some minimal flagging options.
[Edit] Of course, it also doesn't specifically mention even being able to attack other players...
I would really like to see that as early as possible. Even if it starts in a very basic way and is iterated as we go. Something with some "teeth" to set the general feel of what they want to evolve into.
You can't experiment and improve it if it isn't being tried.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You'll be able to make a character from a limited range of options, run around the world, and have fights with monsters and other characters. You'll gather some resources. You'll convert those resources to useable gear. The gear you get will be progressively more useful / powerful at fighting monsters and other characters. Your character will get more useful / powerful over time by training skills and earning merit badges. The kind of monsters you can fight, gear you can craft and character abilities you can earn will be limited.The only thing I see missing from that is the basic Reputation and Alignment system, with some minimal flagging options.
"Working as intended", Ryan said there would be very little else to do in the early stages of EE but killing a few monsters and each other. He does not want a majority of the EE population to be CE + Low Rep because they had nothing else to do, and at no fault if their own.
EE (in its early stages) is not the game, it's the testing arena.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You'll be able to make a character from a limited range of options, run around the world, and have fights with monsters and other characters. You'll gather some resources. You'll convert those resources to useable gear. The gear you get will be progressively more useful / powerful at fighting monsters and other characters. Your character will get more useful / powerful over time by training skills and earning merit badges. The kind of monsters you can fight, gear you can craft and character abilities you can earn will be limited.The only thing I see missing from that is the basic Reputation and Alignment system, with some minimal flagging options.
[Edit] Of course, it also doesn't specifically mention even being able to attack other players...
I would really like to see that as early as possible. Even if it starts in a very basic way and is iterated as we go. Something with some "teeth" to set the general feel of what they want to evolve into.
You can't experiment and improve it if it isn't being tried.
Bah, you managed to grab that quote in the 2 seconds before I realized I was wrong??
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Goblin Squad Member
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You'll be able to make a character from a limited range of options, run around the world, and have fights with monsters and other characters. You'll gather some resources. You'll convert those resources to useable gear. The gear you get will be progressively more useful / powerful at fighting monsters and other characters. Your character will get more useful / powerful over time by training skills and earning merit badges. The kind of monsters you can fight, gear you can craft and character abilities you can earn will be limited.The only thing I see missing from that is the basic Reputation and Alignment system, with some minimal flagging options.
[Edit] Of course, it also doesn't specifically mention even being able to attack other players...
I would really like to see that as early as possible. Even if it starts in a very basic way and is iterated as we go. Something with some "teeth" to set the general feel of what they want to evolve into.
You can't experiment and improve it if it isn't being tried.
Bah, you managed to grab that quote in the 2 seconds before I realized I was wrong??
I meant only the "consequences" for some PVP part. Reputation and a way to have "legitimate" and "non legit" targets, along with consequences (of some type) for choosing "non hostile" targets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Working as intended", Ryan said there would be very little else to do in the early stages of EE but killing a few monsters and each other. He does not want a majority of the EE population to be CE + Low Rep because they had nothing else to do, and at no fault if their own.
They (Ryan) had already said that neither system [alignment & rep - rsd] will be in place through most if not all of EE.No, I can't recall ever saying that. It will be in at the start barring technical problems.
It's a pattern.
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Goblin Squad Member
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http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qbq8&page=31?Could-PFO-Thrive-with-No-Unsa nctioned-PvP#1509
That is a bit vague. I will give you that. Perhaps the rep will accumulate and be applicable later (when it matters). Perhaps it will, at a certain point, matter in the NPC starter settlement.
I guess that we will have to see. The thing to take from the latter quote is that "something" will likely be there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What leads me to believe that
I had modified my previous statement in light of Ryan's clarification, to be more focused on the "earliest stages of EE".
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Working as intended", Ryan said there would be very little else to do in the early stages of EE but killing a few monsters and each other. He does not want a majority of the EE population to be CE + Low Rep because they had nothing else to do, and at no fault if their own.They (Ryan) had already said that neither system [alignment & rep - rsd] will be in place through most if not all of EE.No, I can't recall ever saying that. It will be in at the start barring technical problems.It's a pattern.
Yes it is indeed a pattern to take vague comments and interpret them based on our own opinions. As I have shown, when clarifications are made, I apply them to future statements as I did in this thread....
"Earlier Stages of EE" was a modification based on Ryan's previous clarification.
My prediction for the first few weeks of EE is to not have much more than what you might see in Rust at this time in its early development.
I'd be curious to know what Ryan or one of the Devs thinks of that game and how it's EE might compare to PFOs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bluddwolf
I am curious too. Didn't Ryan also mention a possible Red vs. Blue system or something? Ironically, I think that Proxima Sin had started a thread on that, if for a different reason.
So what are the ways that (in EE) they can try out a rep system and have some consequences attached that are meaningful. Obviously, with SAD coming later, feuds for aggression. I also can't believe that they will want non affiliation to be a way to discourage PVP.
Or will they?
Maybe they will have to start with factions as well as companies? Encourage the most possibility of "hostile" targets with some temporary mechanics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bringslight,
Yes he did, in that same quote I linked. He also said that there maybe roll backs (or similar term) on various systems if needed.
I believe that we may see all of the systems within the first 6 months of EE, with the exception of Settlement Conquest. Any rolling back would likely come in the first 3 months, or at least I hope they tweak things that quickly. It would be really nice to have from month 7 - 15, to then just focus on community building and settlement building. Than in the last 3 months or so, focus on settlement conflict.
I do not base any of this opinion on specific statements, just a general knowledge as a laymen who has beta tested dozens of games over the past 10 - 15 years.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The problem I see is that even if alignment and rep is in the game on day one of Early Enrollment, it may be irrelevant. The only way to train skills will be to access trainers at the NPC settlements which will have to be open to all characters because there won't be enough diversity in the initial terrain to have lots of them. There won't be much to do against the environment besides kill groups of monsters which don't offer much threat. So the most interesting thing to do will be to fight other characters, and I expect that to happen quite a bit.
The challenge is that the message that sends to everyone is that the game is just a PvP free for all with zero consequences. If that becomes the accepted norm, the game will fossilize around those assumptions and we'll never be able to change them. Having alignment and rep doesn't mean anything if there are no consequences attached to changes in them.
Therefore I think that we may need to impose some external forces on the game environment to rationalize the PvP until enough other features have been deployed to give alignment and rep meaningful consequences.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem I see is that even if alignment and rep is in the game on day one of Early Enrollment, it may be irrelevant. The only way to train skills will be to access trainers at the NPC settlements which will have to be open to all characters because there won't be enough diversity in the initial terrain to have lots of them.
Why do the NPC Settlements "have to be open to" characters with Low Reputation?
[Edit] I see the "because" right after that, but I don't really understand why Low Reputation characters need to have access to NPC Training.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem I see is that even if alignment and rep is in the game on day one of Early Enrollment, it may be irrelevant. The only way to train skills will be to access trainers at the NPC settlements which will have to be open to all characters because there won't be enough diversity in the initial terrain to have lots of them.Why do the NPC Settlements "have to be open to" characters with Low Reputation?
[Edit] I see the "because" right after that, but I don't really understand why there Low Reputation characters need to have access to NPC Training.
I agree with Nihimon. Especially since the low rep characters can still accumulate exp and be given incentive to change their behavior so that they can spend it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem I see is that even if alignment and rep is in the game on day one of Early Enrollment, it may be irrelevant. The only way to train skills will be to access trainers at the NPC settlements which will have to be open to all characters because there won't be enough diversity in the initial terrain to have lots of them. There won't be much to do against the environment besides kill groups of monsters which don't offer much threat. So the most interesting thing to do will be to fight other characters, and I expect that to happen quite a bit.
The challenge is that the message that sends to everyone is that the game is just a PvP free for all with zero consequences. If that becomes the accepted norm, the game will fossilize around those assumptions and we'll never be able to change them. Having alignment and rep doesn't mean anything if there are no consequences attached to changes in them.
Therefore I think that we may need to impose some external forces on the game environment to rationalize the PvP until enough other features have been deployed to give alignment and rep meaningful consequences.
The simple solution to that is in the "packaging" of what MVP is. "This is not the game you're playing, it's the testing arena". Once, and hopefully that wont be too far off after the start of EE, you have enough systems in place you then make the announcement... "And let the game begin!!".
I don't know if you have had the opportunity to see Rust, it is pretty bare bones. That is what I expect to see for the first few weeks of PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, and Rust is universally tagged with the idea that it's a meaningless PvP free for all.
I would imagine that is just while it is in its Alpha stage. It does not even have maps to see where you are; no character creation; no skills system; no experience points; no character development or real persistence. It will also likely get a few wipes along the way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem I see is that even if alignment and rep is in the game on day one of Early Enrollment, it may be irrelevant. The only way to train skills will be to access trainers at the NPC settlements which will have to be open to all characters because there won't be enough diversity in the initial terrain to have lots of them. There won't be much to do against the environment besides kill groups of monsters which don't offer much threat. So the most interesting thing to do will be to fight other characters, and I expect that to happen quite a bit.
The challenge is that the message that sends to everyone is that the game is just a PvP free for all with zero consequences. If that becomes the accepted norm, the game will fossilize around those assumptions and we'll never be able to change them. Having alignment and rep doesn't mean anything if there are no consequences attached to changes in them.
Therefore I think that we may need to impose some external forces on the game environment to rationalize the PvP until enough other features have been deployed to give alignment and rep meaningful consequences.
I think that any 'teams' there are to start should absolutely be factions directly tied to Pathfinder lore and should be expected to be present as long as PFO exists; even if they eventually fade from the more experienced player's day-to-day activities. They don't have to start with shining citadels or even headquarters in early EE, just have representative npcs who have certain simple requirements to join. So many Pathfinder players are going try the game and already be surprised by what is happening that I really hope no one is serious about red vs. blue vs. grey when there are so many cool orgs already in place in tabletop to base early pvp on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Set up to record the sequence of moves players use against mobs and use them as bot combat scripts for your goblins. Maybe figure a way to let them 'learn' from the players. Record a script from the tactics player groups use to inform mob party scripts. Things might get interesting fast on the PvE front.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Set up to record the sequence of moves players use against mobs and use them as bot combat scripts for your goblins. Maybe figure a way to let them 'learn' from the players. Record a script from the tactics player groups use to inform mob party scripts. Things might get interesting fast on the PvE front.
Yeah, organically growing AI is certainly an interesting field, and one I'm excited to see actually put to use in mainstream game systems. No idea if it's viable for this project, but it would certainly be fun...
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CEO, Goblinworks
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It's easy to make NPCs that win fights vs. PCs. The computer is omniscient, the players are not. The challenge is to make a hard fight that is winnable by the players. The impossible part is to do that vs. an unknown number of characters with an unknowable matrix of gear and character abilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's easy to make NPCs that win fights vs. PCs. The computer is omniscient, the players are not. The challenge is to make a hard fight that is winnable by the players. The impossible part is to do that vs. an unknown number of characters with an unknowable matrix of gear and character abilities.
It seems to me that this supports your decision to make player-crafted gear the backbone of the economy, and to make NPCs only drop resources.
If 100 newbies can zerg a dungeon boss and get a single piece of really nice gear that's actually intended to be used by someone much more powerful, that's a bad thing.
If 100 newbies can zerg a dungeon boss and get a resource that can be used to build a really nice piece of gear, that seems much more in line with the sum of the value they might have gotten solo-harvesting.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It's easy to make NPCs that win fights vs. PCs. The computer is omniscient, the players are not. The challenge is to make a hard fight that is winnable by the players. The impossible part is to do that vs. an unknown number of characters with an unknowable matrix of gear and character abilities.
The end goal should be a fight that is in line with the players' expectations. You can position some NPCs as pushovers, and some as unbeatable, and people will try to kill them both.
Players will figure out how to kill anything that has HP. (Reference: The Sleeper, EQ)