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Samsaran arcane casters with the mystic past life alternate racial trait can choose to add alchemist spells to their list and craft items requiring those spells. Somewhere, there's an abbey full of Samsaran wizards brewing delicious beer and making excellent alchemist wands. I know my alchemist has thanked them every day for 16 levels for their wand of alchemical allocation.
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So we're in agreement that there's no current way to craft them.
Doesn't answer the question of if they are purchasable in PFS or not.
Since PFS Follows Pathfinder Rules, and you can't make them in the rules, then no you can't buy them in PFS.
Curious though why would you think PFS had an exception for this?
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An alchemist with sufficient ranks in a craft skill could take Master Crafter, which allows taking magic item crafting feats. However, that doesn't resolve the question of whether said alchemist could use extracts as spells when crafting spell-completion items.
One possible fix: the alchemist purchases a scroll or set of scrolls or a wand of the spell he wants to use, and uses one charge of the wand or one scroll (via UMD) each day he is working on the wand. Technically you can use spells from such a source to fuel the creation of a magical item. A wand-crafting alchemist could, in theory, create 50 wands of CLW from one. This would almost certainly not be worth it to a PC, or even a cohort, in a campaign where crafting is allowed (which of course PFSOP is not). An NPC alchemist who appears to be engaged in crafting wands could be explained thusly.
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Ok, I think I see what you guys are talking about..
Master Craftsman feat, which I forgot all about. It only works with Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item creation. Unless you guys were talking about something else?
Anyway still can't get around that the Spells that are Alchemist only are not spells.
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The feat that allows non-spellcrafters to craft is master Craftsman and doesn't make wands.
Also the mystic past life alternate racial trait for Samsarans only lets them add spells from spell casting classes. Alchemists are not a spell casting class.
With some more digging I think I've determined the answer is no, but not for any of the reasons presented, luckily the Samsaran bit got me thinking.
"A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower."
Alchemists have a formula list rather than a spell list. Thus items that are only on the alchemist list are not spells and thus cannot be put into wands. (Note that the Alchemist Brew Potion ability lets them turn their formulae into potions, thus creating an exception to the rule that potions duplicate spells etc)
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Rob, I had the same reaction to the first wand of alchemical allocation I spotted. After a solid 20 minutes of forum digging, I turned up these posts:
Per both of those references alchemists can take crafting feats and use extracts for prerequisites. Nothing there leads me to believe this wouldn't work on Craft Wand, which fits with the plethora of alchemists I've seen running around with wands of alchemist-only spells.
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Rob, I had the same reaction to the first wand of alchemical allocation I spotted. After a solid 20 minutes of forum digging, I turned up these posts:
Per both of those references alchemists can take crafting feats and use extracts for prerequisites. Nothing there leads me to believe this wouldn't work on Craft Wand, which fits with the plethora of alchemists I've seen running around with wands of alchemist-only spells.
So.. you CAN have a wand?
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So.. you CAN have a wand?Rob, I had the same reaction to the first wand of alchemical allocation I spotted. After a solid 20 minutes of forum digging, I turned up these posts:
Per both of those references alchemists can take crafting feats and use extracts for prerequisites. Nothing there leads me to believe this wouldn't work on Craft Wand, which fits with the plethora of alchemists I've seen running around with wands of alchemist-only spells.
Sure looks that way.
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Text of Craft Wand from Pathfinder PRD: "You can create magic wands. Prerequisite: Caster level 5th. Benefit: You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To craft a wand, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information."
Note "CASTER level", and "spell that you KNOW", not "spell that you can CAST".
Text from Alchemist class from PRD: "The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level."
Looks to me that nothing here preventing them taking the feat.
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This does not work. JJ's posts were 2 years before this FAQ came out. Alchemists can't create wands unfortunately.
Alchemist: Is an alchemist a spellcaster for the purpose of crafting magic items other than potions?As written, no, alchemists are not spellcasters, and therefore can't select feats such as Craft Wondrous Item.
The design team is aware that this creates some thematic problems with the idea of an alchemist creating golems and so on, and plan to examine this in the future.—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/01/13
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some people say you can, others say you can't.
Looks like time to mark it FAQ and move on.
Only 21/22 posts so far, I think discussion on the topic could still be fruitful. Still, mark for faq AND comment.
The most recent FAQ (linked by Snigg) was pretty clear and it is the most recent ruling on the matter. I don't know however if we are going to get a clarification here instead of at the rules forum. Seems like a general Pathfinder question to me, not PFS specific
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Samsaran arcane casters with the mystic past life alternate racial trait can choose to add alchemist spells to their list and craft items requiring those spells. Somewhere, there's an abbey full of Samsaran wizards brewing delicious beer and making excellent alchemist wands. I know my alchemist has thanked them every day for 16 levels for their wand of alchemical allocation.There are NO SUCH things as alchemist spells. Extracts despite their similar layout to a spells per day table, are not spells. Alchemists are not spellcasters.
Then what are those peculiar things on page 190 of the APG?
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Then what are those peculiar things on page 190 of the APG?Samsaran arcane casters with the mystic past life alternate racial trait can choose to add alchemist spells to their list and craft items requiring those spells. Somewhere, there's an abbey full of Samsaran wizards brewing delicious beer and making excellent alchemist wands. I know my alchemist has thanked them every day for 16 levels for their wand of alchemical allocation.There are NO SUCH things as alchemist spells. Extracts despite their similar layout to a spells per day table, are not spells. Alchemists are not spellcasters.
Extract formulae
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Extract formulaeThen what are those peculiar things on page 190 of the APG?Samsaran arcane casters with the mystic past life alternate racial trait can choose to add alchemist spells to their list and craft items requiring those spells. Somewhere, there's an abbey full of Samsaran wizards brewing delicious beer and making excellent alchemist wands. I know my alchemist has thanked them every day for 16 levels for their wand of alchemical allocation.There are NO SUCH things as alchemist spells. Extracts despite their similar layout to a spells per day table, are not spells. Alchemists are not spellcasters.
Then why on earth would the design team call them "Alchemist Spells?" Repeatedly? While alchemists may only be able to use them as extracts, they're still spells. Here's a James Jacobs post saying exactly that.
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Here's a James Jacobs post saying exactly that.
Also, this post predates the most recent FAQ by quite a bit.
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That's because in many ways the effects work the same way the spells they mimmic. And they'll describe them that way for convenience sake. But it's also totally clear that alchemist extracts are no the same as spells. Spells are funky invocations that produce effects. Extracts on the other hand are funky liquids quick poured in bottles and then swallowed. That isn't spellcasting by any sense of the trope.
Yes, but these spells exist independently of the alchemist class. As previously noted, while alchemists may not be able to use them as spells, they are objectively noted as spells. Alchemical allocation doesn't fail to be a spell any more than cure light wounds does. The fact that a spell only appears on the list of a non-spellcasting class doesn't disqualify from being a spell.
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It doesn't matter if you want to call them spells or not. They're not cast as spells, they're used as extracts. Although they tend to fall under the general spellcaster umbrella, Alchemists are not actually spellcasters. Yes, technically, Alchemical Allocation is a spell since it follows the spell format, but since it's an alchemist only spell, and per the most recent FAQ, alchemists can't craft magic items aside from potions, it isn't available anywhere as a spell in a wand or on a scroll for anyone else's use.
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Text of Craft Wand from Pathfinder PRD: "You can create magic wands. Prerequisite: Caster level 5th. Benefit: You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To craft a wand, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information."
Note "CASTER level", and "spell that you KNOW", not "spell that you can CAST".
Text from Alchemist class from PRD: "The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level."
Looks to me that nothing here preventing them taking the feat.
This piece of the rules say NO:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires. Fifty of each needed material component are required (one for each charge).
Especially when taken together with this:
The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand's creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
and this:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
When making a armor, weapon, ring, rod or wondrous item you can increase the item DC by 5 and bypass the need to have the spell prepared, when making a wand you can't.
A alchemist can't prepare the spell, so he can't make wands.|
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Because the rules list them as spells.
The "Alchemist Formulae" section of the class states;
Alchemists gain access to a variety of formulae, allowing them to make extracts of the following spells. While most of these spells are found in the Core Rulebook, those marked with an asterisk (*) appear in Chapter 5 of this book.That first sentence is the biggie...
Access to formulae...
Allowing extracts of spells...So, they are Spells, why? The rules say so.
This has a few fun side-effects...
Firstly, it allows for Wands to be made... just not by the Alchemist, at least not a pure alchemist...
It also allows for Scrolls to be made...
And for them to be found in spell storing items... now... how to get it out...
Any class that can memorize that spell? No? No wands of it.
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What are you making the extracts of?
The Listed SPELLS.
The Alchemist, per the RAW, has access to Spells, though it uses Formulae to make Extracts.
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Or, we can look at it another way...
The section lists three aspects of the same thing...
Formulae = knowledge
Extract = method
Spell = effectThe Alchemist knows Formulae.
The Alchemist uses Extracts.
The Alchemist <insert Spell Effect> Flys/heals/etc.---
Without throwing away the wording of the rules, the Alchemist uses Formulae to make Extracts to 'cast' Spells.
Actually the rules say:
Although the alchemist doesn't actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formuale list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.
and
An alchemist may know any number of formulae. He stores his formulae in a special tome called a formula book. He must refer to this book whenever he prepares an extract but not when he consumes it. An alchemist begins play with two 1st-level formulae of his choice, plus a number of additional forumlae equal to his Intelligence modifier. At each new alchemist level, he gains one new formula of any level that he can create. An alchemist can also add formulae to his book just like a wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs, pages, and time requirements. An alchemist can study a wizard's spellbook to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell the spellbook contains. A wizard, however, cannot learn spells from a formula book. An alchemist does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them.
The books put the alchemist extracts under the Spell lists simply because it would be insane to duplicate all of them in a Extract list.
Plenty of extracts duplicate a spell from another class, so the simplest way is to use that description but that don't make the extracts spells.- * -
Benefiting from a spell effect has nothing to do with being a caster or having spells. A alchemist can heal someone pouring some liquid in his mouth? My fighter can do the same. Neither is casting a spell.
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Although the alchemist doesn't actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formuale list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the [u]spell[/u] upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.
Thus, while an alchemist does not cast spells, every extract he makes is based off of a spell. Thus, all alchemist only spells really are spells.
Doesn't mean that they can make wands, but they are still a spell.
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Although the alchemist doesn't actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formuale list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the [u]spell[/u] upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.Thus, while an alchemist does not cast spells, every extract he makes is based off of a spell. Thus, all alchemist only spells really are spells.
Doesn't mean that they can make wands, but they are still a spell.
I have the content of a game CD stored in my computer hard drive and a CD emulator so that I can run it. I have the CD of the game? No.
Same situation.- * -
If they were spells:
I would be able counter your extracts with my memorized spells or dispel magic.
You would be capable to counter my spells throwing your extracts at me.
I would be capable to know what extract you are drinking with a spellcraft check.
You wouldn't need a discovery to be able to use them on other people.
Using a extract would generate an AoO unless you make a concentration check and if damaged while using it you would have to make a concentration check not to lose it, instead drinking it generate an AoO but you don't risk to lose the extract effect.
I think that with a few more minutes of thinking I would be capable to find a few more differences, but those seem sufficient.
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A glass of orange juice is not actually an orange.
-j
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So if alchemists can't take item creation feats or cast spells as required for item creation, how does a Formula Alembic (Ultimate Equipment) ever get made? I'm sure this is not the only magic item that takes a Crafting feat, a spell, and something specific to alchemists.
FORMULA ALEMBIC
Price 200 gp; Aura faint divination; CL 3rd; Weight 2 lbs.
This magically-augmented alchemical device distills a potion or alchemist extract into the knowledge needed to create its formula. By gently heating a potion or extract in the alembic for 1 hour, the device creates a few drops of magical liquid. If consumed by an alchemist, this liquid gives him knowledge of the potion's or extract's formula, as if it were an extract he recorded in his formula book. This knowledge lasts for 24 hours. He may scribe this formula in his formula book in the normal fashion.
Using the alembic does not harm the potion, but the process makes it nearly boiling hot (it cools normally). The alembic can only distill the knowledge of formulas on the alchemist extract list (for example, it cannot turn a potion of a cleric-only spell into something an alchemist can learn).
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 100 gp
Brew Potion, Craft Wondrous Item, identify, creator must be an alchemist