Goblin Squad Member
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I would love to hear from the folks at Paizo about how the Pathfinder IP is being used so far to make PFO. Things like how is the Pathfinder world coming alive in PFO and what you like about it, what would you like to see happen in the future?
Before I heard of PFO I knew nothing about Pathfinder but I am liking what I see and have great expectation and hope that the IP will make for a rich game world environment with a very unique feel to it.
I understand some things are hard to put in an mmo and the rest is even harder, but I have seen what I would call 'using' an IP in other mmo's and it seemed more of a marketing tactic than a love for the IP.
Of course any input from GW is welcome too, what kind of things do you actually do to make PFO feel like it is uniquely Pathfinder. My understanding is that Paizo owns the IP that GW is using to make PFO. I'm not sure how involved Paizo is in making the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think I've read: "... before sign-off by Paizo," as well as
...and then a playtest with the folks from Paizo on Friday to get their feedback on the newest version of Pathfinder Online.
I can imagine on art and lore it's a highly positive reaction. On mechanics (combat maths eg!) and rules (pvp!!) a more nuanced reaction?! Surely seeing a visible and animated form of their creation must be pleasing however.
+1.
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Honestly I'm a bit curious here myself. The game so far looks interesting but not necessarily PF in flavor. I suppose one part of this is that it's focused on the River Kingdoms area, which isn't necessarily the first that comes to my mind. Just my interpretation though, we'll see how it turns out! =)
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The way to view it is the other way around. The River Kingdoms area is already somewhat styled to the nature of the game that they wished to build.
Hmm, that's a bit concerning then. It's not a Pathfinder game, but it's a game that they built and decided to skin somewhat in Pathfinder flavor.
Meh, I'll see what it's like. Honestly so far the game doesn't sound much like what I'd expect from Pathfinder. Then again I was in that crowd that wanted something in the vein of NWN set in Golarion, which isn't necessarily allowable from my understanding.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The way to view it is the other way around. The River Kingdoms area is already somewhat styled to the nature of the game that they wished to build.Hmm, that's a bit concerning then. It's not a Pathfinder game, but it's a game that they built and decided to skin somewhat in Pathfinder flavor.
Meh, I'll see what it's like. Honestly so far the game doesn't sound much like what I'd expect from Pathfinder. Then again I was in that crowd that wanted something in the vein of NWN set in Golarion, which isn't necessarily allowable from my understanding.
Because Pathfinder uses the 3.5 D&D rules design, it is a no go for a game like NWN or even a Themepark MMORPG like DDO with rules close to TT. So they have to come up with their own set of rules and they chose to go the Sandbox route which has different standards and requirements than a Themepark game.
Plus, no matter how much any video game with today's current technology and programming wants to try to get close to TT, it won't really happen. I don't see it happening until possibly a true AI that can mimic a RL GM is possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's my understanding that people want a high-fantasy adventure where they play as the heroes embarking on an epic journey. The big parts of TT which I see that can't be brought over are (in order of importance): the environment's reactability to your character (coarse example, in TT if you run around with no clothes people will notice; in MMO's usually the NPC's won't even remark), the uniqueness of each adventure as the players get through obstacles differently than other players might, and the sense of the individual character being a unique and powerful hero with world-shaping potential.
That first point I feel is the most important. In a tabletop game your character has a noticeable impact on the world; if they kill a den of goblins those goblins stay dead, if they shake down a man in town he might show up with a group of rogue friends to rough you up, if you save a young fellow from some cultists he might join a holy order and become a paladin who fights those cultists himself, etc. Video games can do this to a little degree, but they are always limited in that there is a very finite list of possibilities. In tabletop your actions are limited only by your imagination and good sense, and whatever you do the world will respond appropriately; in a video game your actions are limited by what the developers have programmed in for you to do, and though the world responds appropriately to those specific actions if you do things not intended by the game the world usually responds in unrealistic or unsatisfying ways.
This is just my own list though; anyone else should feel free to chime in their own opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly I'm a bit curious here myself. The game so far looks interesting but not necessarily PF in flavor. I suppose one part of this is that it's focused on the River Kingdoms area, which isn't necessarily the first that comes to my mind. Just my interpretation though, we'll see how it turns out! =)
Other than being set in the River Kingdoms what will make the game Pathfinder will largely be a function of the players. If the mechanics are all there for things to reasonably work the way they should in tabletop, given the limitations of there being no omniscient DM present, then the rest should rightly be up to us.
This intense focus on player versus player mechanics is necessary. That is where participating players who are not at all invested in adventuring cooperatively with the rest of us will be able to disrupt the enjoyment of everyone else, and yet interplayer combat isn't something that can really be left out. There are so many ways the ability to attack one another could ruin the game that PvP must receive the lion's share of the design and development effort.
I would hope that our community can keep in mind in our discussions that while the developer must devote so much of their dedication to interplayer combat, that element is not the sum of the game we are to play. We will be the ones who put the 'Pathfinderness' in the environment they are building.
Let us not lose sight of what we players will bring to the game. We have our responsibilities in this effort.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm curious, not knowing much about PF TT, what is it about the use of the a River Kingdoms as the setting of PFO that raises concerns about PF TT translation to PFO?
Specifically what elements of the TT can not be translated to a Sandbox MMO?
Pathfinder Tabletop is a very cooperation-oriented game. Even your main antagonist, the game master, is not engaging in a true PvP experience. The very competitive nature of the game is actually very strongly anathema to the typical play-style of the tabletop game. This does not mean that the game should throw out the hyper-competitive elements, but this is one area where it should be recognized that the nature of this game and players who will enjoy it could be fundamentally different from the traditional tabletop crowd.
On top of that, I think the whole settlement management and territory control focus of the game is also very different from the tabletop, except for maybe the Kingmaker scenario.
I don't know, I already see the game as having "Artificial Pathfinder Flavoring". Not saying that is a problem for the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm curious, not knowing much about PF TT, what is it about the use of the a River Kingdoms as the setting of PFO that raises concerns about PF TT translation to PFO?
Specifically what elements of the TT can not be translated to a Sandbox MMO?
Pathfinder Tabletop is a very cooperation-oriented game. Even your main antagonist, the game master, is not engaging in a true PvP experience. The very competitive nature of the game is actually very strongly anathema to the typical play-style of the tabletop game. This does not mean that the game should throw out the hyper-competitive elements, but this is one area where it should be recognized that the nature of this game and players who will enjoy it could be fundamentally different from the traditional tabletop crowd.
On top of that, I think the whole settlement management and territory control focus of the game is also very different from the tabletop, except for maybe the Kingmaker scenario.
I don't know, I already see the game as having "Artificial Pathfinder Flavoring". Not saying that is a problem for the game.
See, the way I look at it is that this game is extremely cooperation-focused compared to ordinary MMO's. Here you don't solo level until cap level and then start doing group things, you have to be involved in groups from day one and organize and coordinate with the other players to accomplish anything of merit. Though a lot of discussion focuses around PvP and the competitiveness, that shouldn't be taken to indicate that people who aren't competitive will not have a place; on the contrary, there will be a need for a great many people who are cooperative and noncompetitive. These people will have to face new challenges in this game in the form of player-controlled enemies who disrupt your regular cooperative activity, but what's a game without challenges?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@bluddwolf
I see some issues.
1) The river kingdoms wont be the river kingdoms as established by Pathfinder IP. Its in the same area, however it wont be populated with all sorts of things. in the TT it would be easy to take the area and as you travel through you go through all the mini kingdoms and warlords and interact with them. PfO wont have that, if only because it would be massively expensive to do that.
2) Game mechanics. The game mechanics will be different than in the Pathfinder IP. Now a lot of us know there are good reasons for this (they cannot legally use those mechanics due to the OGL and TT mechanics would not translate well into an MMO). So people might be expecting to be able to be able to create a character directly like the TT.
3) The game is not centered around you. In the table top there is a small group of people, one of which controls the game. the ENTIRE game/session/campaign revolves around the PCs, because its an adventure designed for those people. In this game YOU/ME are not important specifically and the game does not revolve around my choices. It revolves around the entire player base and the collective actions of that player base. So TT players who are expecting epic story arcs and what not will not get that in pfo.
4) Most games where there is a TT influence seems to me that many people who are looking at it are looking for a direct port of the TT game into a video game and they get disappointed when they learn thats basically impossible.
TL:DR River kingdoms wont have all the NPCs and NPC interactions as stated in the source material as well as the fact that the mechanics wont be a direct port of TT rules.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@bluddwolf
I see some issues.
1) The river kingdoms wont be the river kingdoms as established by Pathfinder IP. Its in the same area, however it wont be populated with all sorts of things. in the TT it would be easy to take the area and as you travel through you go through all the mini kingdoms and warlords and interact with them. PfO wont have that, if only because it would be massively expensive to do that.
2) Game mechanics. The game mechanics will be different than in the Pathfinder IP. Now a lot of us know there are good reasons for this (they cannot legally use those mechanics due to the OGL and TT mechanics would not translate well into an MMO). So people might be expecting to be able to be able to create a character directly like the TT.
3) The game is not centered around you. In the table top there is a small group of people, one of which controls the game. the ENTIRE game/session/campaign revolves around the PCs, because its an adventure designed for those people. In this game YOU/ME are not important specifically and the game does not revolve around my choices. It revolves around the entire player base and the collective actions of that player base. So TT players who are expecting epic story arcs and what not will not get that in pfo.
4) Most games where there is a TT influence seems to me that many people who are looking at it are looking for a direct port of the TT game into a video game and they get disappointed when they learn thats basically impossible.
TL:DR River kingdoms wont have all the NPCs and NPC interactions as stated in the source material as well as the fact that the mechanics wont be a direct port of TT rules.
From what I understand there will be NPCs in the town and it only takes part in a small fraction of the river kingdoms along the crusaders road.
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Goblin Squad Member
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there will be NPCs in town, but will all the towns/cities besides the really huge ones like thornkeep be there? Will there be those random warlords there also? Will you see all the NPCs named in the source books? Will thornkeep and such be as big as those cities are described?
It wont be, and thats perfectly understandable considering the cost of putting those things in the game and the server cost to keep track of all of them.
So people who are familiar with the River Kingdoms who would only play this game because its pathfinder might log in and go "this isnt the river kingdom's where is XX and YYY, wow this city is not as big as described, where was this tavern and that tavern".
Thats all i was saying.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In an mmo you have to make up your own story to go with what happens, but what if there were official player-storytellers who gave us a kind of history and background flavor to what goes on in the game. Something you can read and it makes the mmo feel like a Pathfinder campaign, it would all be after the fact but would make the world have a recorded history that sounds like a Pathfinder story. Some kind of recorded history of the world would be cool to look back at after a year or two. It could also keep us up to speed on what's going on around the game world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@notmyrealname, one very possible thing that could happen is that a player or players decide to make a newspaper-type publication or blog, which would detail the various happenings around our corner of the River Kingdoms. This would effectively be like keeping a recorded history if previous editions are available. Something that I myself might be very interested in. :)
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In an mmo you have to make up your own story to go with what happens, but what if there were official player-storytellers who gave us a kind of history and background flavor to what goes on in the game. Something you can read and it makes the mmo feel like a Pathfinder campaign, it would all be after the fact but would make the world have a recorded history that sounds like a Pathfinder story. Some kind of recorded history of the world would be cool to look back at after a year or two. It could also keep us up to speed on what's going on around the game world.
You do not need official story tellers. Even in Eve people keep track of the histories of their alliances I see no reason why people won't do the the same in PfO
Example here from one of Eve's more rp alliances
For history of your Settlement/Charter Company, etc... you could always come to T7V to get your works published or written to be placed in our libraries.
Depends on whether you are going to do a library of Alexandria on us :)
Putting history in a blog would work but I was also dreaming about having an evolving world lore that is updated based on what the players have done to the world. I'll put it on my wish list.
The problem with that is the same as you get in the real world, there will be as many versions of that history as there are participants.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Could you go into more detail about what you mean by "an evolving world lore"?
The thing I was thinking of is a newspaper written in-character, where they would detail the major in-game events of the current week/month/whatever and do interviews with characters (either actual interviews or making up stuff with an NPC) and investigative journalism to get both sides of the story or uncover the real truth behind some conflict. Sounds to me like it'd be a lot of fun, as long as the recent events were varied enough to stay interesting.
As an example, you could have a paper with a cover story about the recent downfall of a large settlement, a scoop with the details of a behind-the-scenes alliance formed by two powers, an opinions article on the ethics of necromancy in farming (this part would probably be totally made up, but no less fun), a "most wanted" section, an introductory article to crafting methods, and a classifieds section where you would put other player's ads just like a regular paper's classifieds.
If anyone's already planning to do something like this, let me know. If not I may have to start such an initiative at some point. :)
Could you go into more detail about what you mean by "an evolving world lore"?
The thing I was thinking of is a newspaper written in-character, where they would detail the major in-game events of the current week/month/whatever and do interviews with characters (either actual interviews or making up stuff with an NPC) and investigative journalism to get both sides of the story or uncover the real truth behind some conflict. Sounds to me like it'd be a lot of fun, as long as the recent events were varied enough to stay interesting.
As an example, you could have a paper with a cover story about the recent downfall of a large settlement, a scoop with the details of a behind-the-scenes alliance formed by two powers, an opinions article on the ethics of necromancy in farming (this part would probably be totally made up, but no less fun), a "most wanted" section, an introductory article to crafting methods, and a classifieds section where you would put other player's ads just like a regular paper's classifieds.
If anyone's already planning to do something like this, let me know. If not I may have to start such an initiative at some point. :)
This is precisely the sort of thing for a player company to do. Become the River Kingdom times send war reporters in etc. I suspect most groups would be willing to declare your people off limits when you garner a reputation for impartiality (even us :) )
Eve has a player run radio station and perhaps another thing someone may be interested in as did Lotro though I believe that has now closed its doors
A newspaper sounds like an interesting way to do what I was thinking of. You could cover what has gone on recently and do other things like you say. It could be fun and useful done that way, do you think GW would let there be in-game newspapers to inform and entertain?
This is a sandbox what does it matter if GW allows something. If they don't put player written things in game (which I doubt they will for a long time). Just issue it as a web address that is what player run newspapers do in other games. In addition you can then add more varied content. Imagine for instance a war is on between two huge entities. You as a reporter on the ground record a running commentary of events as they happen and send it out as a live broadcast via the web. In addition not only can you have the newspaper column written but a podcast of the on the ground excitement.
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As it is slightly on topic to what notmyrealname is talking about here is what eve radio did as a write up for the most recent null sec spat.
See if that is the sort of thing you are after notmyrealname
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the River Kingdoms Chronicles / Town Crier idea. :)
I would love to hear from the folks at Paizo about how the Pathfinder IP is being used so far to make PFO. Things like how is the Pathfinder world coming alive in PFO and what you like about it, what would you like to see happen in the future?
Log this for a future blog - excellent idea when the time is right to hear from some Paizo voices. Perhaps not before the cooking time is completed however and player responses are noted beta-tradition culture from what I've read about Paizo?
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Goblin Squad Member
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As it is slightly on topic to what notmyrealname is talking about here is what eve radio did as a write up for the most recent null sec spat.
See if that is the sort of thing you are after notmyrealname
And they sell T shirts too! My ideas were pretty vague until Shane mentioned a newspaper, what EVE radio is doing seems like a great addition to PFO. Something that is about what players are doing and have done and how the world is changing.It's the kind of stuff you want to know but don't want to take up all your game time talking about instead of playing the game.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Putting history in a blog would work but I was also dreaming about having an evolving world lore that is updated based on what the players have done to the world. I'll put it on my wish list.The problem with that is the same as you get in the real world, there will be as many versions of that history as there are participants.
That's a feature.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for the example, Steel. That looks like something similar to what I had in mind.
Ideally, if in-game books are implemented and easy to mass produce, there would be an in-game version of the newspaper, with articles also copied into a website/blog with accompanying screenshots and other goodies to mix it up. However, without in-game books (which will certainly not be in there during EE) it could still be done as an out-of-game resource.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Could you go into more detail about what you mean by "an evolving world lore"?
:)
When I think of what lore is , it is the history ,background ,setting and sets the stories beginning .It tells you who am I and why am I here. So it is like the mmo gameplay takes place next after the lore's foundation. But in a sandbox that doesn't work well because a year or two later it ignores all that has gone on in the game world . So a way to keep a record of what happens over time could be done in such a way that it is like reading about the 'newest' lore of world, but its all now based on what characters have been doing. So it is like PFO Year 1 lore and history, if it is written to look and feel that way.
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Thanks for the example, Steel. That looks like something similar to what I had in mind.
Ideally, if in-game books are implemented and easy to mass produce, there would be an in-game version of the newspaper, with articles also copied into a website/blog with accompanying screenshots and other goodies to mix it up. However, without in-game books (which will certainly not be in there during EE) it could still be done as an out-of-game resource.
I hope eventually in game books get in as well however I would still like to see the out of game resources continued alongside as they have many advantages that can add to the reading experience
a) Use of audio visual material
b) Linking to other sources
c) Can be read when the game is down for maintenance
d) Can be read when away from your pc such as on train journeys or car journeys via mobile and tablet (or even when at work :) )
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Goblin Squad Member
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I assume most Settlements will have some characters who are ready, willing and able to kill characters that enter territory they consider "theirs".
This is part of what I mean by it not feeling very much like Pathfinder. Sneaking over borders is one of those things that is purposefully rare so as to add flavor when it pops up. But here it it could be, very unfortunately in my opinion, commonplace.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A newspaper sounds like an interesting way to do what I was thinking of. You could cover what has gone on recently and do other things like you say. It could be fun and useful done that way, do you think GW would let there be in-game newspapers to inform and entertain?
There has been some discussion of some thing like this coming out of our corner of the game
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Goblin Squad Member
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A newspaper sounds like an interesting way to do what I was thinking of. You could cover what has gone on recently and do other things like you say. It could be fun and useful done that way, do you think GW would let there be in-game newspapers to inform and entertain?There has been some discussion of some thing like this coming out of our corner of the game
Could you elaborate on who you refer to, or maybe link to the discussion? Like I said, I'm personally interested in such an endeavor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Could you elaborate on who you refer to, or maybe link to the discussion? Like I said, I'm personally interested in such an endeavor.A newspaper sounds like an interesting way to do what I was thinking of. You could cover what has gone on recently and do other things like you say. It could be fun and useful done that way, do you think GW would let there be in-game newspapers to inform and entertain?There has been some discussion of some thing like this coming out of our corner of the game
I will have to look it up again, its buried in our forums. Being that its still a while until EE, we haven't set any thing down yet. I'll let the author know people are interested, though he will probably see these posts sooner or later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's a feature.Putting history in a blog would work but I was also dreaming about having an evolving world lore that is updated based on what the players have done to the world. I'll put it on my wish list.The problem with that is the same as you get in the real world, there will be as many versions of that history as there are participants.
Working as intended?
@Shane: Unfortunately, publishing the lore in-game somehow is a not-insignificant undertaking. However, something like an official (moderated) wiki along side the other lore wouldn't be too difficult. EVE had this arrangement for a while, though I'm not sure if they still do. Also, there will likely be 3rd-party 'news' sites that crop up no matter what, along with a small army of bloggers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is part of what I mean by it not feeling very much like Pathfinder. Sneaking over borders is one of those things that is purposefully rare so as to add flavor when it pops up. But here it it could be, very unfortunately in my opinion, commonplace.
I assume most Settlements will have some characters who are ready, willing and able to kill characters that enter territory they consider "theirs".
I think you might be confusing Pathfinder TT and the way that plays out, and the Pathfinder World if you tried to think of it out of the context of the TT and in context of it being a living, breathing place.
This gets complicated even further when you then take the TT and translate it into an MMO.
We often think inside a bubble when playing games, TT or MMOs, and don't realize what we are doing is being done by 10's of thousands.
I started thinking about what goes on, outside the bubble in EvE and I came up with this thread:
The TL;DR version is that as immortals we become disconnected from the human interactions and emotions that mortal humans do. During the course of our infinite years of adventuring we will kill millions or even hundreds of millions of people, humanoids, monsters, critters, etc..
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Goblin Squad Member
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Could you elaborate on who you refer to, or maybe link to the discussion? Like I said, I'm personally interested in such an endeavor.A newspaper sounds like an interesting way to do what I was thinking of. You could cover what has gone on recently and do other things like you say. It could be fun and useful done that way, do you think GW would let there be in-game newspapers to inform and entertain?There has been some discussion of some thing like this coming out of our corner of the game
Here's a little something one of our members posted on The Seventh Veil's forums a while ago, just to give you an idea of some of the things we've talked about.
The World :
THE TREATY OF ROVAGUG, AN ANTI-GOON TRIAL BALLOON
Our leaders take position, see p 3Business :
The member of the council of six
NAILE TROLLARD IS IN TOWN
Another frontier fort to be built by the Carrion Corp ? see p.6Art :
The Gold of Azlant at The Harp & Raven Tavern
CHIASSA GETS A STANDING OVATION
Melok declares : A fantastic evening. The first of many. Will Graden Jangerwald be our next guest ?
Critic in page 5.Dungeoneering :
SPECIAL EDITION : THE RIGHT TOOLS FOR CAVE MAPPING
A well-known leader declares « Every adjective about caving is an under-statement. »
More info p.10-12Careers :
CURATORS needed for the library of the Caeruxi. Cleaning experience an asset.
See details in page 8Personal ads :
YM looking for a shieldmate. All daily deals. Ask Lhan.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm intrigued. Now I want to read these articles!
And why isn't Fult posting here? From your quote alone, he has a distinct way with words.
Fult is pretty exceptional, actually. He's often made me wish I could Like/Favorite posts on our forums.
He posts here occasionally, but like a lot of other T7V folks, he's mostly at lurker status.