Are spells or hexes better for witch casting?


Advice


Pretty much what it says on the tin. My buddy is an optimizer and declared that while hexes are good for utlity that they don't benefit from a lot of stuff that increases spell effectiveness(items, feats, traits) and so end up weaker at higher levels. I haven't looked at any Pathfinder stuff for a while so I wasn't able to come up with a good counterargument. Any help demonstrating that hexes are as good or better than casting? Also, are there any ways to boost caster level for hexes? I don't think there are since it's based on class level, but I could swear I saw a favored class bonus somewhere or maybe an item.


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Your buddy is correct, but misses out the way that hexes are excellent at low levels for the same reasons - enemies have very few items, feats, etc that boost their saves.

'Normal' spellcasters can't use many spells per encounter at low levels (no, not even sorcerors); the witch can use a hex generally every round and they are usually more effective than anything another spellcaster could do, often including their low level spells.

Once you reach higher levels, the hexes are still useful but spells become relatively more effective. However, like all prepared-spell casters, a witch should conserve higher level spells for the more important/dangerous fights, so hexes are still pretty good for dealing with incidental baddies.

I haven't seen any favoured class bonuses to boost hexes, but I haven't been looking recently, and my witch was played in a campaign without traits so I didn't look at those either.

EDIT: I found that hexes were about on a par with a witch's 3rd level spells, but noticeably weaker than 4th level spells. And I hadn't taken any feats that particularly boosted my spellcasting at that point.

Grand Lodge

Ability Focus works for Hexes.


With the Witch's Hex DC scaling with her level and casting ability modifier its always at the top of your DC compared to your highest level spells except for maybe a few spells that you specialize in that will be better. However, a big boon is the fact that your Hexes aren't resisted by Spell Resistance and that you have an unlimited amount of times you can cast them, though some minor restrictions about how many times you can cast it on an individual.

Hexes are different from spells. They are not necessarily better or worse. But, with certain combination like Evil Eye, Cackle, and Slumber you can be very menacing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ability Focus is not allowed in all campaigns (certainly not if you're using Society rules for example). However that aside.

Some hexes are very very good.

First, they are Su.

That means they ignore and bypass spell resistance.
Second that means you don't need to move, speak, other carry spell components, with a few exceptions (Cackle is stated as a audible effect). So go ahead and slumber the bad guy while you are gagged and tied up.

Second as noted by others they scale at save DC int bonus + 1/2 level. Other hexes also scale with more improved effects such as the Healing and Flight hex. Flight starts as a swim bonus and Feather Fall at will at 1st, then levitate at 3rd, and then Fly at 5th.

Hexes also have different limitations on use. Healing Hex is only 1/day...but it's 1/day per target. So you can could cure your entire party 1/day...not a bad thing.

I have a vanilla human witch in Pathfinder Society and he's very, very effective. He's never carried a fight, but he has saved the party's collective butts when we needed to bug out.

And of course, with the right patron, you also have a full caster progression with a decent (though not the best) spell selection.

You'll not as powerful as a full on wizard or cleric, but you can be situationally more effective. And not to mention they are fun to play.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Healing Hexes are also great for healing NPCs. The witch in our home game uses it on just about every single rescued prisoner, and can keep that up all day and all night because each person gets another free use of it.

Dark Archive

Yes but...

At high levels, a Witch is flying around casting 9th level spells.

It doesn't end up making a whole lot of difference. And what's wrong with utility?

The DC for Slumber can be boosted by 1 for taking the Elf Dreamspeaker alternative racial trait.


Oh wow! I didn't know that they bypassed SR, that's definitely a good point to keep in mind (haven't played a witch). I also hadn't thought about the out of combat effects of being able to heal so many different people. Thanks for the feedback.

@Rerednaw: that's a great visual! "We have the witch tied up! Let's...zzzzzz"

So would you all say that hexes have the most utility at lower levels?

Scarab Sages

Well, at 18th level, the Grand Hex, Curse of Nonviolence, can possibly end combat.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
ashern wrote:

Oh wow! I didn't know that they bypassed SR, that's definitely a good point to keep in mind (haven't played a witch). I also hadn't thought about the out of combat effects of being able to heal so many different people. Thanks for the feedback.

@Rerednaw: that's a great visual! "We have the witch tied up! Let's...zzzzzz"

So would you all say that hexes have the most utility at lower levels?

No. Hexes remain very useful and relevant throughout the entire game.


ashern wrote:


So would you all say that hexes have the most utility at lower levels?

I would not (although I'm not a witch expert). As pointed out, there are a number of feats and traits that can be used to boost hexes; just look for something that boosts "effects" instead of "spells." The scaling DC keeps the save DC roughly equivalent to one's highest-level spells, and the fact that they bypass SR makes them substantially more useful than spells at higher levels.

Where they fail is on flexibility. The slumber hex targets Will saves and is mind-affecting. Shrodinger's wizard (or witch) has a prepared save-or-suck spell that lets her target whichever save is the weakest and bypasses any immunities that the target has (if she can make her SR penetration roll, of course). The slumber hex can also be used as many times per day as she likes, while she's only got one or two high-level spells. So if you know you'll be fighting a pack of elf rogues, you can't swap out the useless slumber hex, but you can prepare eyebite.. Once or twice.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
ashern wrote:

Oh wow! I didn't know that they bypassed SR, that's definitely a good point to keep in mind (haven't played a witch). I also hadn't thought about the out of combat effects of being able to heal so many different people. Thanks for the feedback.

@Rerednaw: that's a great visual! "We have the witch tied up! Let's...zzzzzz"

So would you all say that hexes have the most utility at lower levels?

Oh yeah, SR is the caster's bane...fortunately you can avoid that.

Regarding utility, not necessarily. The fact that they auto-scale keeps them viable for most of the game. Granted some hexes (Healing for example) are superceded by superior versions (Major Hex, Major Healing). However you can use the Healing Hex and the Major Healing Hex on the same target so the lesser version is still usable.

The witch is more specialized than a wizard so when her hexes do work, she excels. When they don't (fighting elves/drow/constructs for example with Slumber Hex) she has to do something else.

Many of her spells are the enchantment and mind-affecting category so there are foes she may have trouble against.

Fortunately you do have options.
Evil Eye (mind-affecting, but not enchantment) is a nice debuff you may find yourself using throughout your career...even when a target makes his save, he is still affected by it for a minimum of 1 round, and you could Cackle to extend it.

Misfortune is neither mind-affecting or enchantment and it is a horrific debuff. Roll every d20 twice? Especially when you soften them up with Ill Omen first. Just make sure it sticks and this spell can set up a boss-killer combo.

The witch also has access to a few flavorful and quirky spells...Vomit Swarm...icky...but it is a swarm that you summon as a standard action and control as a move action. Most swarms when summoned are full round to summon and you cannot control them so you worry about being interrupted while casting and then they'll eat friend and foe alike after you call them. Call of the Void is a great way to shutdown enemy casters, though it does require proximity.

The advice is pretty much the same...you have your main guns (Slumber, Evil Eye, Misfortune) except when they don't work...then go to your backup roles (healing, buffing, support).

The witch is a full progression arcane with great access (superb with healing patron) to healing spells so she can fulfill many backup roles. Plus she does have some good battlefield control (Black Tentacles, Web, etc...) spells available as well.

My witch took the Fortune buff...sure it's only one-reroll, but it's sustainable. It saved the gunslinger's (and the party's) behind from a double-misfire gun explosion. Continue to lay another Fortune buff 1/round and sustain all of them with Cackle. I had 3 melees choosing their first and best attack with a re-roll on their to-hit and they loved it during the boss fight.

In my experience I have found the witch to be a nice change of pace from playing a wizard.

I should add I've been in several adventures against undead, constructs and so forth. I switched to party buffing, control, and in some cases even evocation to switch things up.


ok so by level 20, 36 is not an unattainable int score. So i think thats +13 which makes your hex dc 33(10+1/2 your level+int mod) meanwhile your base dc on 9th level spells is 10+9+13 or 32. both are very respectable numbers not sure if you need much more


EsperMagic wrote:
ok so by level 20, 36 is not an unattainable int score. So i think thats +13 which makes your hex dc 33(10+1/2 your level+int mod) meanwhile your base dc on 9th level spells is 10+9+13 or 32. both are very respectable numbers not sure if you need much more

Well, a balor (CR 20) has a Will save of +25, so it needs to roll an 8 or better to save against your hex, and a 7 or better to save against your spells.

Yes, you will need more.

You either need to find a way to boost the DC, or some way to nerf the critter's save. Boosting spell DCs is fairly easy (just spend feats); nerfing saves is harder but well within a well-built witch's wheelhouse. (For example, a quickened ill omen spell will force the balor to roll his will save twice, dropping his chances for success down from 65% to about 40%. The cackle hex can drop his save by 2, dropping the chances by itself to 55% and dropping the chances in conjunction with ill omen to about 30%.)


Thats fair but lowering the opponenets save isnt the same as boosting DC's which was what the OP was asking about. There really arent any additional ways to boost Hex DC's. You have to instead like you mentioned focus on lowering saves.
A Balor also has a reflex save of +17...why you arent you using Su and spells that target that instead like a smart player would?

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