Crane Wing Errata and Effects on PFS


Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild

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Liberty's Edge *****

so i went from -2/+4 with repo to no attack/+ 4 with repo.....worthless. now need to retrain 2 feats on my monk of many styles since crane repo will be illegal. with the req that style feats have u already paid for their good ability... i can think of a whole slew of other feats that be better to nerf....like cleave

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I suggest sitting on it a bit; I think the Design Team might be starting to get convinced they over-nerfed it, and might make another tweak. Stay tuned.

***

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:

They'll need a crane, they'll need a crane

To take the FAQ he built for her apart
To make it break
It's gonna take
A metal ball hung from a chain
They'll need a crane, they'll need a crane
To pick the broken pieces up again
To mend her heart
To help him start
To see a world apart from pain

+100 internets for you! Well played!

***

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

mechanically-wise, however, crane style was stronger than like 80% of the other styles, including my fav (monkey). It needed some sort of spanking with a nerf bat, as it could on occasion be hard to adjudicate (especially since some people tried to save it for crits, which AFAIK there's no real way to do).

Liberty's Edge *****

i can deal with that part... the fact u have to full defense to repo now makes it worthless.....they make u choose from bein useless and defensive to being useless and offensive

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Jiggy wrote:
I suggest sitting on it a bit; I think the Design Team might be starting to get convinced they over-nerfed it, and might make another tweak. Stay tuned.

When are we going to know whether the current errata is set in stone? When does the actual, finalized rules change take effect?

-Matt doesn't want another six months of uncertainty on the level of the question of how Flurry worked.

Liberty's Edge *****

what they should have done was require u to state ur using crane wing before the roll. if the attack misses crane wing is not used and can be used on the next attack. theym shoud not require you to be full defensive

*****

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Mattastrophic wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
I suggest sitting on it a bit; I think the Design Team might be starting to get convinced they over-nerfed it, and might make another tweak. Stay tuned.

When are we going to know whether the current errata is set in stone? When does the actual, finalized rules change take effect?

-Matt doesn't want another six months of uncertainty on the level of the question of how Flurry worked.

They released a new printing of the Ultimate Combat when the new errata was announced the other day. It is in effect.

It would require a new FAQ/errate statement to change now, and who knows how long something like that will take, as it's not a regularly scheduled thing.

Paizo Employee ***** Developer

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The Guide, v5.0 wrote:

Playtests and Errata

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is a living game, and whether in the form of a playtest that varies from its final incarnation, conversion from the 3.5 rules set to the Pathfinder RPG, or an errata or FAQ to the Core Rules, sometimes game elements change in the course of a PC’s career. The following guidelines allow players to update or convert existing characters to use the most current rules. When rebuilding your character in any way, you must describe all changes on your next Chronicle sheet in the Notes section, and your GM must initial that section.

If a feat or trait changes or is removed from the Additional Resources list:
You have two options. First, you may either switch the old feat for an updated feat of the same name in another legal source (if available), ignoring any prerequisites of the new feat you do not meet. Alternatively, you may replace the feat entirely with another feat for which you meet all the prerequisites.

Yes, you can retrain the Crane Wing feat for free, as noted by the second paragraph. Mike and I just chatted about Crane Riposte, and we're fine with someone retraining that for free, too, as part of the recently released errata.

Scarab Sages **

Thank you, John Compton, for giving everyone clarification. Though my monk will switch the Wing, my Total Defense Halfling Fighter will still keep the Riposte of the Crane.

Sovereign Court **

It may be wise to wait a bit. It sounds like the design team is going to reconsider the crane wing errata and write an errata for crane riposte.

Jason posted to that effect here

*****

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Acedio wrote:

It may be wise to wait a bit. It sounds like the design team is going to reconsider the crane wing errata and write an errata for crane riposte.

Jason posted to that effect here

You might want to review that again. His point #2 is that they're going to clear up the language on Crane Riposte, so that it is clear you can take an AoO with Total Defense if you block an attack...

I don't think anything on changing Crane Wing again is really imminent. At least that's what I've read from him.

Grand Lodge *****

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I'm pretty sure Jason's post means they will get to it eventually. And it seems pretty clear the only timely faq or errata will be about Riposte.

-ninjaed...

Liberty's Edge *****

way i read it they will be looking into the revision to asses if they went to far on the nerfing. then rewording riposte to to match wing

Grand Lodge **

I think statement near the end is what's giving people hope of a revisitation:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Concerning this feat, we came to agree that it was pushing a bit to high above the base line. We pulled it back. We are looking to see if we went too far. Its clear to us that many of you think we have. We will take that into consideration going forward.


The only things that really bother me is the weak argument of power attack.

If you can expect all fighters to have power attack, there is no problem expecting all monks(or single handed fighters) to have crane style(at a very heavy feat tax).

Even liking the overall Pathfinder design of rules, its a very weak argument and actually just prove that crane wing CAN be strong.

I prefer it to be weaker, but not destroyed as it is. +4 to ONE attack AFTER the roll(so you dont waste on a natural 20) and ability to riposte one missed attack per round fighting defensively would be strong, still MUCH weaker than power attack and completely viable... no auto miss, no auto hit, but awesome to defend against those grapples that can ruin an entire combat on ONE roll.


I am glad we can retrain both feats.

Not sure if I should wait and see if anything changes, or retrain Wing and Riposte to working/now better feats:
Toughness > Crane Wing
Weapon Focus > Crane Riposte

Crane Style I cannot retrain, but it is still nice for boosting AC. After all I had a Str based monk that actually didn't get hit every turn. (He will now)...


I'm just terribly baffled by the amount paizo hits the monk class with the nerf stick. As it stands in the core rule book the monk is vastly inferior to the other core classes especially in pfs. Now with every rule that they create that gives the Monk class effectiveness it inevitably gets and errata to stifle that effectiveness the brass knuckles series of errata's is a good example with paizo not wanting the monk to be a viable damage on target character, and now they have completely destroyed this feat chain that helps make a monk a viable defensive "tie-up" character. Now I know that you can "play" a monk in other ways but before this monks were regarded as tier 4-5 I don't want to know where they end up now.

Message to Paizo Developers: I am highly disappointed, that is all

*****

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

rgstar, you're welcome to your opinion (myself, I'm happy to play a Core Rulebook only Monk any day of the week), but this thread is about the effects on PFS - there are several other threads to discuss the pros and cons of the changes.


rgstar wrote:

I'm just terribly baffled by the amount paizo hits the monk class with the nerf stick. As it stands in the core rule book the monk is vastly inferior to the other core classes especially in pfs. Now with every rule that they create that gives the Monk class effectiveness it inevitably gets and errata to stifle that effectiveness the brass knuckles series of errata's is a good example with paizo not wanting the monk to be a viable damage on target character, and now they have completely destroyed this feat chain that helps make a monk a viable defensive "tie-up" character. Now I know that you can "play" a monk in other ways but before this monks were regarded as tier 4-5 I don't want to know where they end up now.

Message to Paizo Developers: I am highly disappointed, that is all

Basically, I love monks. Its getting harder to make a decent monk without the agile amulet cheese.

Paizo seems to hate monks, from what I've seen. Sure they sometimes give monks nice toys. Then just as you feel safe and secure. Paizo yanks it out from under the monks.

This might not be the case, but it sure looks like it from where I am standing.

Crane Wing negated 1 melee attack vs you specifically. Now I'll build a Tetori monk that will Pin a dude, reducing all his actions! mwhahahaha.

Or something like that.

Shadow Lodge *****

I don't think its the monks with this that are the problem so much as the magi and the characters that took a 2 week correspondence course in master of many styles to get it that are the problem.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

I don't think its the monks with this that are the problem so much as the magi and the characters that took a 2 week correspondence course in master of many styles to get it that are the problem.

Oh I know that the real problem here wasn't Crane Wing being OP. It was getting it at lvl2, or with various other characters taking a 2lvl dip of MoMS.

TBH, the first time I saw MoMS, didn't need the prerequisites I assumed that they still needed to meet the monk lvl/BAB requirements. But was told that they don't. And that sounded broken to me from the get go.

"Oh I can take all the style feats from a whole chain no matter the level they are supposed to come into play at really low levels? nice"

Seriously?

And now a great build that made monks fight defensively as monks should gets nerfed into uselessness.

Sorry, I sometimes get a little too passionate when monks yet again loose something that could make them shine a little. Esp when the actual problem lies elsewhere.

Look at all other bonus feats that bypass requirements:
Rangers might get some higher up feats 1 level before they would normally come into play. Why is it okay for this one archtype to take them from the start with just the cost of flurry and other bonus feats?

Sort of reminds me of the USA imposing very strict gun control policies to try and reduce the amount of firearms used by criminals. (really?!)

sigh.


As a side note to PFS problem feats:

Tribal Scars.

enough said.

Shadow Lodge *****

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This last thing this thread needs is kerosine like tribal scars (or gun control)

Shadow Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

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**edit**

BigNorseWolf wrote:
This last thing this thread needs is kerosine like tribal scars (or gun control)

Deleted my post to prevent this. Good point BNW.

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Chester aka Paz

The thread to discuss the pros and cons of this change is HERE.

As Majuba said, this thread is to make PFS players & GMs aware of the errata, and to discuss the available retraining options.

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I would allow a retain of crane style too. For the build that wanted the whole chain of feats and now do not. It is like a feat tax for having the feat if you would now prefer another style, but picked this at first.

Well since you enjoyed the power of crane wing, you are stuck with this feat you picked just to get it.

Then again you can buy another book to retrain.

Sovereign Court **

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Crane Style is still a strong feat even if you do not take Crane Wing or Crane Riposte.

The design team has posted an errata for Crane Riposte here. This solves the problem of not being able to trigger AOOs from deflections when fighting defensively, and also removes ambiguity on whether an Crane Riposte AoO can be taken during a total defense action.

Edit: Quoting changed text upon request

Crane Riposte Errata wrote:


Crane Riposte: With the changes made to Crane Wing, how does Crane Riposte work?
While the feat still reduced your penalty when fighting defensively, there is a change to the text the follows.

Update: Page 93, in the Crane Riposte feat, in the benefits paragraph, change the second sentence to read as follows: Whenever you are fighting defensively, and you use Crane Wing to add a dodge bonus against one attack, that attack provokes an attack of opportunity from you if it misses. In addition, when you deflect an attack using Crane Wing while taking the total defense action, you may make an attack of opportunity against that opponent (even though you could not normally do so while taking the total defense action).

—Pathfinder Design Team, today

**

I feel silly, but I can't find any errata or FAQ concerning crane wing or crane riposte on that page at all. Not sure how I'm missing it. Would you mind quoting?


The problem is not crane style being strong, is crane wing and crane riposte are now completely useless.

Now you pay 2 feats to get +1 to hit... amazing. (the other effects are less than trivial)

Silver Crusade **

Jason Hanlon wrote:
I feel silly, but I can't find any errata or FAQ concerning crane wing or crane riposte on that page at all. Not sure how I'm missing it. Would you mind quoting?

Find the errata for Crane Wing here.

It's in the Ultimate Combat errata download, as it isn't a faq or just a post.

Find the FAQ for Crane Riposte here.

This is in the FAQ because that is so much easier to update.


Okay... Crane Riposte now works if the attack you designate with Crane Wing misses.

Which I can live with. Seems I might not change my PFS chars after all.


Skull wrote:

Okay... Crane Riposte now works if the attack you designate with Crane Wing misses.

Which I can live with. Seems I might not change my PFS chars after all.

On the other hand, that's not too great either. The attack against the +4 might still hit, and it might actually make sense to use crane wing on the attack with the least chance to hit to get the riposte! Better than nada though.


Much better, Still weak, but at least usable.

***

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So in the end it went from great to mediocre. I think they backpedaled that nerf just about the right amount with the additional change to Riposte. I would personally house rule that you can take the +4 retroactively but even as it has to work in PFS it is a reasonably usable feat.

On the upside this whole discussion introduced me to Snake Style, which I had overlooked before.

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Saint Caleth wrote:
On the upside this whole discussion introduced me to Snake Style, which I had overlooked before.

...and it may be the next one on the nerfing-block ;-)


Talk in whispers pleaaaase :P


Saint Caleth wrote:

So in the end it went from great to mediocre. I think they backpedaled that nerf just about the right amount with the additional change to Riposte. I would personally house rule that you can take the +4 retroactively but even as it has to work in PFS it is a reasonably usable feat.

On the upside this whole discussion introduced me to Snake Style, which I had overlooked before.

One thing usually overlooked is the Snake Sidewings... its lets you use Sense motive check in place of attack roll on critical confirmation...

its awesome when you roll natural 20 on your last attack(that one with only +3 to hit due to power attack) and you can use your FULL +40 sense motive on the check to confirm the critical.

It ALSO makes Tripping Finish incredible and critical focus unecessary... you can get +50 sense motive by lv 20, then youre ready to go around tripping the Tarrasque... and since he didnt have Ki Stand.... :P :P :P


RafaelBraga wrote:
One thing usually overlooked is the Snake Sidewings... its lets you use Sense motive check in place of attack roll on critical confirmation...

Fine print though, it only works for unarmed strike.

The main reason you grab critical focus was for critical feats I thought. What is tripping finish btw?

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Seattle aka Taenia

Some ideas to pull back on the crane wing nerf:

Crane Wing - grant the first ability of crane riposte here as well, so that fighting defensively is reduced to -1 with crane wing and -0 with crane wing and riposte.

Allow the riposte attack to occur both after a deflection and if the attack with the +4 bonus to AC misses. This will increase its use by a long shot as well as provide a real benefit to riposte.

Allow a deflection on crane wing, but require some type of roll similar to snake style, either an attack roll like parry, an acrobatics check, provide a bonus on the deflection if in Total Defense.

One thing I saw with the new Crane Wing was that it was useful vs. monsters with special abilities on one of their attacks, so if a monster has grab on bite but not on claws, putting it on bite works well. The other thing is if you put it towards an attack and that attack crits, the AC bonus still applies to the confirm roll.

*****

MrSin wrote:
The main reason you grab critical focus was for critical feats I thought. What is tripping finish btw?

Maybe he means Tripping Strike?

Liberty's Edge *****

i retrained crane series to janni style feats. now prestons even more annoyed by my trip every opponent i see lol, ohh and leaping charge attacks

Liberty's Edge ****

Dame Kerline wrote:
i retrained crane series to janni style feats. now prestons even more annoyed by my trip every opponent i see lol, ohh and leaping charge attacks

Look into a Lion Cloak. Now you are a large monk with pounce and leaping charge attacks

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