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When we speak about alignment conflict, almost always is about LG dilemmas, or paladins dilemmas.
Then i read about the helm of opposite alignment thread and some posters saying that a chaotic good character wouldn't do this, but a LG would do, and i thought: "finally, one example of CG dilemma!"
That raised me a question, Chaotic Good characters suffer any kind of dilemma to do good? If not, why? Their good perspective is "lesser" than the LG one or it's better? If the lawful way is better to do good, they try to oppose it and go find a chaotic way to do good, even if harder or "less" good, or they will back down and allow the Lawful Gooders save the day?
And how about the Chaotic Evil characters? Lawful Evil characters have some restrictions of his evil behavior, do CE characters have anything they wouldn't do to reach evil? Harder question than that, would a CE character have a place in society? They could be a respected productive member of one society still doing chaotic evil things? How?
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In my eye, a CG character is going to be looking to maximize good, but they won't be looking for structure and they'll just have trouble accepting official channels.
In my opinion, it's less that a Chaotic character faces moral quandaries and deliberately makes decisions, and more that they have trouble feeling comfortable following instructions.
Have you ever attended an event where you were expected to do this, don't do that, get these forms filled out, stand in that line, look smart, play the part, double-check your progress, and OMG ENOUGH ALREADY NOBODY CARES?
That's Chaotic.
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My simplest experience has been that Chaotic characters just want to do things their own way, while Lawful ones prefer to follow rigid "by the book" means.
Chaotic is not, nor has ever been, license to be a psychotic, murdering sociopath.
Pretty much what WJS said. Dilemmas come up for Lawful characters because they try to keep their good-doing within the limitations of their personal code or other sources of authority. Chaotic Good characters do good by any means.
The one dilemma I can see a CG character having in this sort of scenario is the choice between doing good and risking harm, or obeying the statues and limitations and preserving their own skin at the cost of losing the opportunity to do good.
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I see "achieve good by all means" in the neutral good realm, imo, chaotic good characters, like Wrong John Silver said, would have trouble with official channel. But that doesn't mean they abhor laws. I had read the Saxon Chronicles from Bernard Cromwell, and, on the second book, i think, said a phrase regarding the many laws that Alfred was imposing - i don't remember the exact phrase, but it was something like that: "A man doesn't need more laws than he can count in one hand". I think this is a good guideline to a chaotic individual's tolerance about law and a good guideline to a chaotic society's law structure.
But that means that roleplaying a chaotic good character is easier ?
I generally think it's "easier" to play chaotic characters in the sense that you're less likely to trip up on one acting out of alignment, or there will be fewer dilemmas that challenge your alignment compared to a lawful character. As you said, a chaotic character doesn't oppose laws on principle, just the ones that get in their way.
That said it's easier for me personally to play lawful because I'm a very lawful person IRL. I have to be pretty crazy tired or wired up on caffeine and sugar to play chaotic properly. It's a real challenge to put my own personal hangups and self-restrictions on hold and play a character who throws that sort of limitation to the wind.
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I generally think it's "easier" to play chaotic characters in the sense that you're less likely to trip up on one acting out of alignment, or there will be fewer dilemmas that challenge your alignment compared to a lawful character. As you said, a chaotic character doesn't oppose laws on principle, just the ones that get in their way.
That said it's easier for me personally to play lawful because I'm a very lawful person IRL. I have to be pretty crazy tired or wired up on caffeine and sugar to play chaotic properly. It's a real challenge to put my own personal hangups and self-restrictions on hold and play a character who throws that sort of limitation to the wind.
So, in your opinion, a chaotic character is immune to OCDs?
I think WJS has the right of it, though I would say that a chaotic good character would accept official channels if those channels lined up with what the chaotic good character is trying to accomplish.
Basically, I would say Batman is chaotic good.
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Looking at the alignments historically may illuminate some ideas. Back in 1e, alignments were were part of philosophical and cosmic forces, so much so that they possessed their own languages. They possessed them, because according to Gygax:
As D&D was being quantified and qualified by the publication of the supplemental rules booklets. I decided that Thieves' cant should not be the only secret language. Thus alignment languages come into play, the rational being they were akin to Hebrew for Jewish and Latin for Roman Catholic persons.
I have since regretted the addition, as the non-cleric user would have only a limited vocabulary, and little cound be conveyed or understoon by the use of an alignment language between non-clerical users.
If the DMs would have restricted the use of alignment languages--done mainly because I insisted on that as I should have--then the concept is vaible. In my view the secret societies of alignment would be pantheonic, known to the clerics of that belief system and special orders of laity only. The ordinary faithful would know only a few words, more or less for recognition.
1st Edition: While as strict in their prosecution of law and order, characters of lawful good alignment follow these precepts to improve the common weal. Certain freedoms must, of course, be sacrificed in order to bring order; but truth is of highest value, and life and beauty of great importance. The benefits of this society are to be brought to all.
2nd Edition: Characters of this alignment believe that an orderly, strong society with a well-organized government can work to make life better for the majority of the people. To ensure the quality of life, laws must be created and obeyed. When people respect the laws and try to help one another, society as a whole prospers. Therefore, lawful good characters strive for those things that will bring the greatest benefit to the most people and cause the least harm. An honest and hard-working serf, a kindly and wise king, or a stern but forthright minister of justice are all examples of lawful good people.
3rd Edition: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished. Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion.
1st Edition: Unlike those directly opposite them (neutral evil) in alignment, creatures of neutral good believe that there must be some regulation in combination with freedoms if the best is to be brought to the world - the most beneficial conditions for living things in general and intelligent creatures in particular.
2nd Edition: These characters believe that a balance of forces is important, but that the concerns of law and chaos do not moderate the need for good. Since the universe is vast and contains many creatures striving for different goals, a determined pursuit of good will not upset the balance; it may even maintain it. If fostering good means supporting organized society, then that is what must be done. If good can only come about through the overthrow of existing social order, so be it. Social structure itself has no innate value to them. A baron who violates the orders of his king to destroy something he sees as evil is an example of a neutral good character.
3rd Edition: A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them. Neutral good is the best alignment you can be because it means doing what is good without bias for or against order.
1st Edition: While creatures of this alignment view freedom and the randomness of action as ultimate truths, they likewise place value on life and the welfare of each individual. Respect for individualism is also great. By promoting the gods of chaotic good, characters of this alignment seek to spread their values throughout the world.
2nd Edition: Chaotic good characters are strong individualists marked by a streak of kindness and benevolence. They believe in all the virtues of goodness and right, but they have little use for laws and regulations. They have no use for people who "try to push folk around and tell them what to do." Their actions are guided by their own moral compass which, although good, may not always be in perfect agreement with the rest of society. A brave frontiersman forever moving on as settlers follow in his wake is an example of a chaotic good character.
3rd Edition: A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society. Chaotic good is the best alignment you can be because it combines a good heart with a free spirit.
1st Edition: Those of this alignment view regulation as all-important, taking a middle road betwixt evil and good. This is because the ultimate harmony of the world -and the whole of the universe - is considered by lawful neutral creatures to have its sole hope rest upon law and order. Evil or good are immaterial beside the determined purpose of bringing all to predictability and regulation.
2nd Edition: Order and organization are of paramount importance to characters of this alignment. They believe in a strong, well-ordered government, whether that government is a tyranny or benevolent democracy. The benefits of organization and regimentation outweigh any moral questions raised by their actions. An inquisitor determined to ferret out traitors at any cost or a soldier who never questions his orders are good examples of lawful neutral behavior.
3rd Edition: A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government. Lawful neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.
1st Edition: The "true" neutral looks upon all other alignments as facets of the system of things. Thus, each aspect - evil and good, chaos and law - of things must be retained in balance to maintain the status quo; for things as they are cannot be improved upon except temporarily, and even then but superficially. Nature will prevail and keep things as they were meant to be, provided the "wheel" surrounding the hub of nature does not become unbalanced due to the work of unnatural forces - such as human and other intelligent creatures interfering with what is meant to be.
2nd Edition: True neutral characters believe in the ultimate balance of forces, and they refuse to see actions as either good or evil. Since the majority of people in the world make judgments, true neutral characters are extremely rare. True neutrals do their best to avoid siding with the forces of either good or evil, law or chaos. It is their duty to see that all of these forces remain in balanced contention. True neutral characters sometimes find themselves forced into rather peculiar alliances. To a great extent, they are compelled to side with the underdog in any given situation, sometimes even changing sides as the previous loser becomes the winner. A true neutral druid might join the local barony to put down a tribe of evil gnolls, only to drop out or switch sides when the gnolls were brought to the brink of destruction. He would seek to prevent either side from becoming too powerful. Clearly, there are very few true neutral characters in the world.
3rd Edition: A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way. Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run. Neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you act naturally, without prejudice or compulsion.
1st Edition: Above respect for life and good, or disregard for life and promotion of evil, the chaotic neutral places randomness and disorder. Good and evil are complimentary balance arms. Neither are preferred, nor must either prevail, for ultimate chaos would then suffer.
2nd Edition: Chaotic neutral characters believe that there is no order to anything, including their own actions. With this as a guiding principle, they tend to follow whatever whim strikes them at the moment. Good and evil are irrelevant when making a decision.
Chaotic neutral characters are extremely difficult to deal with. Such characters have been known to cheerfully and for no apparent purpose gamble away everything they have on the roll of a single die. They are almost totally unreliable. In fact, the only reliable thing
about them is that they cannot be relied upon! This alignment is perhaps the most difficult to play. Lunatics and madmen tend toward chaotic neutral behavior.
3rd Edition: A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it. Chaotic neutral is the best alignment you can be because it represents true freedom from both society’s restrictions and a do-gooder’s zeal.
1st Edition: Creatures of this alignment are great respecters of laws and strict order, but life, beauty, truth, freedom and the like are held as valueless, or at least scorned. By adhering to stringent discipline, those of lawful evil alignment hope to impose their yoke upon the world.
2nd Edition: These characters believe in using society and its laws to benefit themselves. Structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a clearly defined hierarchy between master and servant. To this end, lawful evil characters support laws and societies that protect their own concerns. If someone is hurt or suffers because of a law that benefits lawful evil characters, too bad. Lawful evil characters obey laws out of fear of punishment. Because they may be forced to honor an unfavorable contract or oath they have made, lawful evil characters are usually very careful about giving their word. Once given, they break their word only if they can find a way to do it legally, within the laws of the society. An iron-fisted tyrant and a devious, greedy merchant are examples of lawful evil beings.
3rd Edition: A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises. This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains. Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master. Lawful evil is sometimes called "diabolical," because devils are the epitome of lawful evil. Lawful evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents methodical, intentional, and frequently successful evil.
1st Edition: The neutral evil creature views law and chaos as unnecessary considerations, for pure evil is all-in-all. Either might be used, but both are disdained as foolish clutter useless in eventually bringing maximum evilness to the world.
2nd Edition: Neutral evil characters are primarily concerned with themselves and their own advancement. They have no particular objection to working with others or, for that matter, going it on their own. Their only interest is in getting ahead. If there is a quick and easy way to gain a profit, whether it be legal, questionable, or obviously illegal, they take advantage of it. Although neutral evil characters do not have the everyman-for-himself attitude of chaotic characters, they have no qualms about betraying their friends and companions for personal gain. They typically base their allegiance on power and money, which makes them quite receptive to bribes. An unscrupulous mercenary, a common thief, and a double-crossing informer who betrays people to the authorities to protect and advance himself are typical examples of neutral evil characters.
3rd Edition: A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has. Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies. Neutral evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents pure evil without honor and without variation.
1st Edition: The major precepts of this alignment are freedom, randomness, and woe. Laws and order, kindness, and good deeds are disdained. life has no value. By promoting chaos and evil, those of this alignment hope to bring themselves to positions of power, glory, and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whims.
2nd Edition: These characters are the bane of all that is good and organized. Chaotic evil characters are motivated by the desire for personal gain and pleasure. They see absolutely nothing wrong with taking whatever they want by whatever means possible.
Laws and governments are the tools of weaklings unable to fend for themselves. The strong have the right to take what they want, and the weak are there to be exploited. When chaotic evil characters band together, they are not motivated by a desire to
cooperate, but rather to oppose powerful enemies. Such a group can be held together only by a strong leader capable of bullying his underlings into obedience. Since leadership is based on raw power, a leader is likely to be replaced at the first sign of weakness by
anyone who can take his position away from him by any method. Bloodthirsty buccaneers and monsters of low Intelligence are fine examples of chaotic evil personalities.
3rd Edition: A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him. Chaotic evil is sometimes called "demonic" because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil. Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend.
I would not say that any specific interpretation is correct or incorrect. More, looking at their progression (or regression, going by other views) can show us different ways they've been interpreted and from there, different ways they may be challenged.
Anyhow, spoilers added because dang, that's a lot of text. I figured a person would only want to examine pieces at a time, as well.
Here are a few bonuses:
Chaotic Alignment by a player generally betokens chaotic action on the player's part without any rule to stress this aspect, i.e. a chaotic player is usually more prone to stab even his lawless buddy in the back for some desired gain. However, chaos is just that -- chaotic. Evil monsters are as likely to turn on their supposed confederates in order to have all the loot as they are to attack a lawful party in the first place. While there is no rule to apply to groups of chaotic players operating in concert, referees are urged to formulate some rules against continuing co-operation as fits their particular situation, but consideration for concerted actions against chaotic players by lawful ones should be given.
And... 1e Alignment Image, using descriptive alignment names.
So, in your opinion, a chaotic character is immune to OCDs?I generally think it's "easier" to play chaotic characters in the sense that you're less likely to trip up on one acting out of alignment, or there will be fewer dilemmas that challenge your alignment compared to a lawful character. As you said, a chaotic character doesn't oppose laws on principle, just the ones that get in their way.
That said it's easier for me personally to play lawful because I'm a very lawful person IRL. I have to be pretty crazy tired or wired up on caffeine and sugar to play chaotic properly. It's a real challenge to put my own personal hangups and self-restrictions on hold and play a character who throws that sort of limitation to the wind.
... I am not at all understanding how you made that jump.
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I am chaotic most of the time. I couldn't care less about authority and the proper way to do things if it's inefficient.
When people try to assert authority with me, I tend to laugh in their face. Using reason and logic, however works. A kind word also helps.
I am willing to help anyone, even if it would inconvenience me, but i will key a guy's car if he is double parked.
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... I am not at all understanding how you made that jump.So, in your opinion, a chaotic character is immune to OCDs?I generally think it's "easier" to play chaotic characters in the sense that you're less likely to trip up on one acting out of alignment, or there will be fewer dilemmas that challenge your alignment compared to a lawful character. As you said, a chaotic character doesn't oppose laws on principle, just the ones that get in their way.
That said it's easier for me personally to play lawful because I'm a very lawful person IRL. I have to be pretty crazy tired or wired up on caffeine and sugar to play chaotic properly. It's a real challenge to put my own personal hangups and self-restrictions on hold and play a character who throws that sort of limitation to the wind.
Yeah, i jumped the barrel. What i mean't is, do you think that a chaotic person couldn't have its quirks, restrictions, manias or hangups?
I am no angel but I wouldn't key my worst enemies car. You just don't mess with a mans automobile.
Why an angel wouldn't key someone else's car?
Yeah, i jumped the barrel. What i mean't is, do you think that a chaotic person couldn't have its quirks, restrictions, manias or hangups?... I am not at all understanding how you made that jump.So, in your opinion, a chaotic character is immune to OCDs?I generally think it's "easier" to play chaotic characters in the sense that you're less likely to trip up on one acting out of alignment, or there will be fewer dilemmas that challenge your alignment compared to a lawful character. As you said, a chaotic character doesn't oppose laws on principle, just the ones that get in their way.
That said it's easier for me personally to play lawful because I'm a very lawful person IRL. I have to be pretty crazy tired or wired up on caffeine and sugar to play chaotic properly. It's a real challenge to put my own personal hangups and self-restrictions on hold and play a character who throws that sort of limitation to the wind.
I don't see why not. I imagine even the most chaotic creature would have things it wouldn't do, or at the very least wouldn't do most of the time. That however is going to vary wildly from individual to individual, unlike lawful characters who tend to congregate toward those with like minds/morals/ethics and can be pretty much expected to all act in generally the same way (minus a few individual quirks or traits here and there).
I think the difference between a chaotic creature and a lawful one with the same quirk is that the chaotic one may be a bit more mutable with how they approach those limitations, while a lawful one will adhere to them more rigidly.
I am no angel but I wouldn't key my worst enemies car. You just don't mess with a mans automobile.I did worse things to someone's car. Much worse. But they really had to deserve it.
Like take their gas cap off, drop it on the ground, siphon out their gas, and then drop half a box of moth balls on the ground and leave?
Or tossing a bag of oregano through an open window onto their passenger seat and then calling the cops on them for illegal drug possession?
Or using plans you downloaded off the internet to build a home-made hand-held single-shot EMP device and them using it on their car right after they installed a brand-new, highly expensive stereo and speaker combo? And then having it towed to an impound lot so they don't find out until after they've spent most of their money just getting it back?
I kept telling him my driveway was not a parking spot he could use...
That's how a chaotic person gets their point across ^^
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Nope, but I did spill two bottles of brake fluid all over his fresh paint job. I also dribbled some nitric acid in all of his keyholes.
But he did pass down my street around 3AM EVERY FREAKING NIGHT blasting techno at full volume with windows rolled down.
Now, I like techno. A lot. I even left him a note, politely asking him to at least roll up his windows so that people who have to work could get a good night's sleep. He didn't comply.
Call me old fashioned but when I have a problem with somebody I usually take it up with them personally. This passive aggressive "revenge" is really sad to hear about.
I did confront them about it. The revenge tactics came when that didn't work.
It is a good example of what a chaotic person will do... take the law into their own hands and dispense justice. If justice is their goal.
Irony as thick as pea soup in here.
But Janus is correct in that it's a good example of how a Chaotic mind would handle a situation.
And I think it's pretty easy to tell which posters lean Chaotic and which ones lean Lawful just by seeing the reactions to the situation in question.