Hit points and Mana: Regeneration or No?


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

So those of us used to themepark MMOs are generally accustomed to our hitpoints and mana or magic power pool regenerating over time out of combat.

Should it be similar in PFO or different? If different how do you recommend? If similar what seems optimal in your view?

What will be the downsides and upsides to your preference?

(Devs weighing in with the facts would be welcome IMV)

Goblin Squad Member

I think a 5 second delay, or longer, after combat before it starts to regen would make for interesting gameplay. A window of vulnerability is what I mean.

Goblin Squad Member

I think HP / Mana regeneration are a must. The speed of which would all have to scale to the number of hit points. Out of combat would be faster, sitting in an Inn would be faster, running for your life not so much.

Injuries should produce downtime, but should not mean returning to a settlement to heal.

On a larger scale healers, and casters should be useful for more than the first 15 minutes of a settlement invasion.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Managing resources like health, mana, and stamina is a big part of the game. More complications mean more interesting decisions.

Goblin Squad Member

I say no.

HP regeneration should only happen if you say eat food, are in a settlement, or in a tavern/inn.

Otherwise it should not naturally regen out of combat at any really pace. As to mana, there is no mana so thats not an issue as PfO is going with different ways to manage skills.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Right now:

Power only regens in safe locations and upon eating.

Hit Points regen very slowly in combat (1% of max per round is the arbitrary current number), but speed up out of combat. Additionally, buffs that improve in-combat regen speed are more common than direct heals (and completely replace Heals over Time; in general, many heals are intended to scale somewhat based on your max HP rather than being a completely fixed number).

The reason for regen being a thing (and regeneration improving out of combat), is that it allows us to make heals/regen buffs that don't cost Power but without making healers completely essential to all your outings. The logic chain is:

  • If we make non-Power heals for everyone, it doesn't matter that you don't regen quickly out of combat because you can just spam your heal out of combat.
  • If we make non-Power heals just for Clerics and other divine casters, you'll always want one with you so you can have them spam their heals on you out of combat. It just punishes people that don't bring along a renewable healer.
  • If we just have people automatically regen pretty quickly out of combat, we can balance heals and regen buffs primarily on their effect in combat without worrying that they hurt the out of combat experience.

Traditionally, games that don't opt for quick out of combat HP restoration generally see players preferring to be bored or annoyed rather than starting fights damaged. They'll sit as long as necessary or do whatever they need to do rather than experiencing the attrition-based play that the designers intended by limiting HP recovery. So we opted to move the attrition-based play to Power, and make it generally easier to recover HP out of a fight (and this also makes it easier to make balance assumptions for combat based on max HP instead of some arbitrary level of damage).

That said, values of "regen pretty quickly" are variable based on what we see in play. It likely comes down to how common it is to get jumped shortly after another fight. If you almost always get to wait as long as it takes after a fight to recover to full, there's not a lot of reason to keep recovery from being practically instant out of combat. But if it's common to get jumped within a minute of getting out of combat, it makes sense to take more than a minute, on average, to get back to full after you've taken significant damage.

Goblin Squad Member

Since I plan to play a rogue, I look at it from this viewpoint.

I enter a fight, get damaged, and manage to escape combat (lets say via stealth, like the Feat "spring attack") and then enter a "out of combat" state were I regen. "quickly" or "instant". Then I am able to renter combat fully healed without a healer even looking at me, while the person I originally engaged is still stuck in combat, with the other combatants.

This situation would be okay in my mind if I used a "First aid" like skill that I have actually dedicated training too. But auto regen should have bit of a delay if it is instant or should be a little slower.

Goblin Squad Member

Tigari wrote:

Since I plan to play a rogue, I look at it from this viewpoint.

I enter a fight, get damaged, and manage to escape combat (lets say via stealth, like the Feat "spring attack") and then enter a "out of combat" state were I regen. "quickly" or "instant". Then I am able to renter combat fully healed without a healer even looking at me, while the person I originally engaged is still stuck in combat, with the other combatants.

This situation would be okay in my mind if I used a "First aid" like skill that I have actually dedicated training too. But auto regen should have bit of a delay if it is instant or should be a little slower.

I could get behind a trainable healing skill that improves recovery, usable either on yourself or on a target. Perhaps even impossible to use during stealth - you have to get far enough away to use it unseen or just hope nobody comes and interrupts it mid-use. Higher training reduces activation time. Interrupted by being attacked (but only the first attack through DoT effects and not subsequent damage ticks), but otherwise usable in combat, meaning you don't need to be out of combat, just need to avoid being targetted while being attended to. Then in-combat and out-of-combat regeneration could be at the same rate.

This may go too strongly against Design Point #1 above though. I would rather see either this or near-instant recovery. Give us something to do or make it a non-issue. I don't want to spend two minutes playing hide and seek after every encounter.

Goblin Squad Member

It would also become mandatory for PvP. It would be looked at as another self heal..

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Oh, also Injuries from critical hits are long-term and will slowly overcome your fighting capabilities until you get some Power-based heals, use expensive items, or go to a safe place.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Tigari wrote:

Since I plan to play a rogue, I look at it from this viewpoint.

I enter a fight, get damaged, and manage to escape combat (lets say via stealth, like the Feat "spring attack") and then enter a "out of combat" state were I regen. "quickly" or "instant". Then I am able to renter combat fully healed without a healer even looking at me, while the person I originally engaged is still stuck in combat, with the other combatants.

This situation would be okay in my mind if I used a "First aid" like skill that I have actually dedicated training too. But auto regen should have bit of a delay if it is instant or should be a little slower.

Presumably, your 'escape' abilities would cost some power, making it basically equivalent to a healing ability that costs power.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for the info, Stephen. I really like that heals are mostly based on max health rather than being a fixed value, that makes a lot of sense to me.

I would like to see every class get some form of dealing with damage, but having them all approach it differently. For example, fighter gets a short term but large boost to resistances, cleric can heal himself or others, rogue can go invisible for a short duration in combat, and wizard could go all sorts of ways (maybe wizard gets debuffs to enemy's damage). The point being, ways to deal with damage should not be limited to traditionally tank and support roles.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm going to vote a big fat 'NO' to regeneration of Health and 'Mana/Spell Slots'.

You want your health to be restored? Eat some food and 'make camp' (2 minute-long period when your character is sitting in a little camp, sleeping animation) and you'll 'regenerate' X-amount of hit-points depending upon badges/levels/con rate/whatever they decide.

The 'make camp' should fully regenerate spell slots/mana, due to how heavily spellcasters rely upon their spells.

But no, if your health and mana/spell slots are difficult to replace, then you'll be less suicidal than games like WoW and WAR and most other Theme-Park MMOs have trained us to be. It's not a case of 'run in and headbutt my way down the dungeon', it's a case of planning your run in stages and making sure you're not going to be in a desperate state at the end of a fight in-case you get sprung by wandering mobs/other players/traps.

We're not Trolls, and we shouldn't heal like them.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Having played EverQuest I remember sitting around for ten-fifteen minutes watching my health bar slooooowly tick up so I could cross the zone line and continue playing the game.
At the time this led to some fun social interaction, while you and a half-dozen other questers and grinders sat around chatting to kill the time. I remember some fun impromptu guessing games or sing alongs. But that's better in a Theme Park game where lots of people will be in the same place and less ideal for a sandbox where you'll likely be alone.

If you can only play for an hour or two, you shouldn't be forced to stop playing for a quarter of your play time keeping one eye on the screen (in case of bandits) while you play Angry Birds on you phone.

Food is a nice compromise. You should regenerate health outside of combat (or logged off), but have an easy way of accelerating that so you can continue playing the game. So you have to sit, which requires a remotely safe location, and remember to pack a bag lunch before excursions. However, if a trip takes longer than expected or is more dangerous, you won't end up stuck at near death leagues from home.
It'd be nice if food restored a static percentage, so you didn't have a Warcraft style food treadmill (but better food might restore things faster, cue a "cooking" skill).

Goblin Squad Member

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Jester David wrote:
But that's better in a Theme Park game where lots of people will be in the same place and less ideal for a sandbox where you'll likely be alone.

This is a very dangerous assumption to make coming into this game. Some aspects may be playable on your own, but keep well in mind that adventuring alone is going to make you a prime target to any less-than-savory folks looking for easy prey in the wilds. Much of the game is being designed around interacting with others, both competitively and cooperatively. Successful players are much less likely to be alone than they would in the "wilderness" of most themeparks.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

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Let's fanwank some numbers.

The maximum time I'll sit around waiting to heal is probably around 5 minutes. Any more than that and I'll get really bored. Too much less and it doesn't slow me down. 5 minutes is long enough that you want to avoid it if possible, but isn't so long that you want to just log off and try again in an hour.

5 minutes is around 300 seconds. So you could heal 0.33% of your health every second, or 1% every 3 seconds (for a nice round number).
It's long but time you can spend checking what you looted, managing inventory, or alt-tabbing to check your e-mail.

So that's what I'd use as the benchmark.

As that's the sittin' & resting time. It could be halved for walking around passive healing, taking 10 minutes to fully heal. But you're also continuing to play so that's permissible.
It could even be longer, as you're not likely to adventure when badly hurt but you're not going to stop for a minor injury. So 0.25%/3s could be doable; that's a long 20 minutes, but you don't notice the passage of time.

You might regenerate slower when logged out. Maybe something like 0.1%/3s, so it takes the better part of an hour to heal. Which is find if you're logging out for the night but it makes popping off an inefficient way to regenerate.

Eating could easily double healing time, to 2%/3s. For the very basic starter food. That's a lengthy 2 1/2 minutes of down time, but that's when near death. If you have enough food to stop every fight it might easily be under a minute. That's slow enough of a delay to encourage you to invest in better food but not so slow that you'll get antsy.
Food can increase in quality, knocking it up by a few percent. Possibly to a maximum of close to 30%/3s. 10 seconds seems like a nice small amount of time that isn't instantly healing and leaves you vulnerable for a brief moment.

Anyhoo, just my ramblings.

Goblin Squad Member

I really like the idea of healing healing on a % base instead of hard numbers.

I also REALLY like that crits can have lasting effects. Given that crits will have lasting effects I suppose that in general crit will require major investments to gain. It will be fun to see people use the higher crit range weapons due to the effects of crit.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:

Right now:

Power only regens in safe locations and upon eating.

Is all food going to be player made?

How long do you wait at a safe place or after eating to regen power?

Should I ask what is power for and why we can fight on with our regenerated hp but no power if we have to, or is combat all about the power ?

Goblin Squad Member

@Notmyrealname, for an explanation of power see the blog post By the Time I Lose It, I'm Not Afraid.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Shane Gifford wrote:
@Notmyrealname, for an explanation of power see the blog post By the Time I Lose It, I'm Not Afraid.

Thanks for the link, that blog confused me the first time and it didn't stick in my head.

Goblin Squad Member

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I don't think you should be allowed to heal at all while logged off. Regardless of how much time has passed, when you log back in you should have to take the amount of time in-game to heal as required. Just because you log off shouldn't make you "safe".

Goblin Squad Member

@Ravenlute, I believe the desire to regen when logged off comes from the desire to not log on after regular play and have to sit around to regen as soon as you log in (which is a reasonable desire, in my opinion). It'd be much better to just log in and play.

Possible solution:

In games like this there's often a "logout timer" where, even if your client's connection is terminated, your character will stay in-game for a certain amount of time before disappearing. If the duration of the logout timer is approximately the time it takes a character to regen from, say, 10% to 100% when out of combat, then I think both sides would get what they want (when you come back your character is at full health, but you can't abuse logging out to regen). This solution might be infeasible depending on how slow out-of-combat regen is.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Shane Gifford wrote:

@Ravenlute, I believe the desire to regen when logged off comes from the desire to not log on after regular play and have to sit around to regen as soon as you log in (which is a reasonable desire, in my opinion). It'd be much better to just log in and play.

Possible solution:

In games like this there's often a "logout timer" where, even if your client's connection is terminated, your character will stay in-game for a certain amount of time before disappearing. If the duration of the logout timer is approximately the time it takes a character to regen from, say, 10% to 100% when out of combat, then I think both sides would get what they want (when you come back your character is at full health, but you can't abuse logging out to regen). This solution might be infeasible depending on how slow out-of-combat regen is.

In a PvP focused game a logout timer is a must to prevent abuse anyway. I see no problem in a character continuing their regen as long as they are in the game world. With out-of-combat regen being faster this may not even be an issue unless someone has taken a lot of damage. I just don't want to see logging out be an alternate "cure all" for massive damage, crit damage, poison, disease or other status effects that should take some time to naturally or magically recover from. You shouldn't be able to take a time out, watch an episode of your favorite tv show and log back in all good as new.

Speaking of poison, I doubt that it will be something a character can just get for free with no effort and removing it as an injury should cost too, whether in time or coin spent on anti-toxin medicine/spells. Just logging out should not be enough.

Goblin Squad Member

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Perhaps the Log-Out Health/Mana Regen is 10% of each per hour? Stops most forms of abuse and gives normal players a chance to log in to a full- or nearly full-health character, and sidesteps the above PvP Exploit?

Also, yes, 30 second logout timer in which your character still exists in the game world.

But really, I cannot stress the 'no regeneration' stance. Why is leveling in WoW boring? Because non-instanced or PvP combat is a breeze, unless you're severely under-geared or need to be reminded to breath every so often. Almost every class has a self-healing mechanic, and while it's useful, let's also not forget that WoW's mechanics are all focused to one goal. End-Game Raiding.

Pathfinder Online's focus is on the journey itself. Dungeons are simply a delicious side-path on that journey, not the actual goal.

How do we keep people going out into the Wilds? Herbs and rare components for healing potions, which are necessary for a Party that may not have a dedicated healer on every run. Bang, there's yet one more reason somebody will roll a Non-Combat PC, and yet more trade and interaction going on between the players.

If Health becomes a resource that's expensive to renew, Players aren't going to be the face-rollin' kamikaze nut-jobs we all encounter in most popular MMOs. Suddenly, instead of charging into the middle of a group of enemies and popping enrage/sweeping strikes/bleed/dps flag/whirlwind and then shout 'Spin to Win!' as the body parts go flying, I'm going to sit there and think how best to deal with the mobs.

Draw them into a choke-point so my team-mates can pepper them from afar while I hunker down with my tower shield and axe and physically block the choke-point?

Start lobbing Tanglefoot bags and take them apart piece-meal?

Use Illusion and/or Enchantment and/or Conjuration spells to sow discord amongst the enemy and then throw in some cheap, throw-away troops of my own while I bring the pain to the survivors?

If Health becomes a resource that's not easily replaceable, then suddenly it's a resource players will want to maximise and conserve, and that, to me at least, creates an environment of caution and planning, rather than the usual "BLAAAARGH!" facerolling that is common in the popular MMOs to date.

Goblin Squad Member

I fully agree with HalfOrc's points and desire to make health/HP a meaningful resource alongside power.

On the other hand I do agree with Stephen that some form of out of combat health regeneration (also in the wilds) is probably a necessity to avoid the frustrations of having to (always) procure a healer before venturing on an adventure.

Some additional concerns with quick / instant out of combat health regeneration, particularly if combined with expensive (i.e. costing a finite resource, which does not replenish out in the wilds, and which could be used for other purposes) or ineffective active in combat healing:

  • getting out of combat, quickly fully healing, and re-entering combat is likely to become the most efficient way of "healing", where possible
  • ability to use out of combat healing may have a significant impact on the general flow of big battles, putting front line characters at a significant disadvantage compared to those with a more convenient opportunity to make use of this mechanic

Personally I would prefer an old school approach of having to set up a camp to (significantly) regenerate out of combat, having the recovery rate (while camped) being determined by the highest healing skill in the group and exposing the camped characters to surprise attacks, which would interrupt the regeneration (and camp in general). Having the setting up of the camp take e.g. 1 minute and full recovery from 1 % to 100 % around 0,5-2 minutes with clear visual clues of a the camp being set up might also mitigate some of the (ab)use of this mechanic in large battles.

Goblin Squad Member

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I obviously didn't outline my 'Camp' function too well.

Here's how I see it working.

10 minute cooldown.

2 minute duration with a 30 second 'opt in' window.

When using the ability, non-hostile and allied players can 'opt in', creating a camp with you, that may have stacking benefits with more players involved.

1 players, eh, you're sleeping in the wild.

2 players, small campfire, tent. Fairly basic.

3 players, small campfire, multiple tents, some more shizzle for your nizzle going on here.

With more players getting involved, the bonuses keep on stacking up and up and up, and more players decreases the chance of a mob walking in and spanking your ass while you're camping, plus possible in-game benefits such as 'camaraderie', which might give you a positive bonus to will-saves (example) or something like that. Once again, giving players yet another reason to interact in the wilds short of "I STAB YOU IN THE FACE!" "NO! I STAB YOU IN THE FACE!"

Camping restores X amount of hit-points, based upon your badges and/or levels and/or shenanigans. It's not a full restore, but frankly, if you're out in the wilderness, you've got 1 hitpoint left and camping is your only option, it's time to get stealthy and crawl your ass back to town before a Kobold makes you her b~@%#.

It fully replenishes Mana/Spell Slots. Melee can just smack things to death all day. Archer-types run short of ammo ... and then smack things to death with slightly less grace. Casters ... as soon as they run out of spells, they're just chum for the monsters.

Goblin Squad Member

Half-Orc, I like your campfire idea, so long as it does take some time spent at the camp before any benefits kick in.

Some of my reasoning behind not gaining health while logged off comes from seeing it work just fine in other games. Wurm Online has this as well as some in-game regen. This is how it works. Every time you get hit you take a certain amount of damage. Depending on how much damage you take that becomes a Light, Medium or Heavy Wound. Every ten minutes of in-game time, some damage from Light Wounds are regenerated naturally. Med and Heavy wounds do not, in fact Heavy wounds cause you to take additional damage every ten minutes. You can use Cotton or Cloth to manually bandage a wound, removing some of the damage and thereby making it less fatal. Medium and Heavy wounds can be reduced to Light wounds so that they can regen over time. None of this changes while offline.

Through that system, it requires a player to actively deal with serious wounds but still lets them carry on adventuring rather then having to stop and do nothing until they heal up. However, they can't just log off in enemy territory after a brutal battle and expect to jump right back into the fray when they log back on. They have to choose where they log off carefully, especially if they aren't fully healed yet.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
Oh, also Injuries from critical hits are long-term and will slowly overcome your fighting capabilities until you get some Power-based heals, use expensive items, or go to a safe place.

Very cool. That is really going to up the demand for characters with power based heals, and also be a cool way of implementing criticals as something other than a source of ridiculous burst damage.

My question hearing this is will there be other long term effects such as poison/disease effects? Also might there be the possibility of effects that get worse over time and may even kill you if left untreated? Such effects were one of my favorite features in Wurm.

Goblin Squad Member

@Ravenlute, logging off after a battle in enemy territory would very likely result in your character dying, as pretty much every game of this type has your character persist in-game after logging out in unsafe territory. Thus, if such a system is in place for PFO, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't log in to a full health character (provided of course you have waited long enough between logging out and back in). See my previous post for my reasoning on further supporting this if out-of-combat regeneration is in-game.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:


Very cool. That is really going to up the demand for characters with power based heals, and also be a cool way of implementing criticals as something other than a source of ridiculous burst damage.

My question hearing this is will there be other long term effects such as poison/disease effects? Also might there be the possibility of effects that get worse over time and may even kill you if left untreated? Such effects were one of my favorite features in Wurm.

the poison.disease thing is really interesting. In mmos poison/diseases are basically just another damage type. in the TT past a threshold poison/diseases become laughably easy to just not get due to high saves. If getting poisoned did some damage based on how many times you were hit with said poison it could make them more effective than just a way to add dps. The same with disease.

it would make using them worth crafting poisons and would make for some very interesting options for high level poisons.

Goblin Squad Member

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Very cool stuff.
Personally, on one hand I would like to see no regeneration and for power and health resources to need to be managed. But at the same time if that limits the players ability to play the game and partake in the game they wish to play then that is a bad thing.

On the other hand the typical heal rate in most themepark MMOs are pretty silly. Your Health Regen is so swift that you regain it in seconds to a minute out of combat. This leads to issues of being able to endlessly grind monsters because you essentially have unlimited health so long as you can survive the single encounter damage. This is bad because in a more serious game, would would be the point of waiting until someone is weakened from on encounter to take advantage of said situation.

@Stephen Cheney I feel GW is taking a safe middle ground which I would say is good. negligible in combat regain that can be buffed with abilities. With it increasing out of combat and again can be buffed with abilities. The trick here is balancing it out. I would like to see someone who hasn't skilled into endurance and or other fortitude type abilities to have lower regeneration rates out of combat so they can regen but are vulnerable longer after combat. While a person who has invested in those skills can get back up and recoup and regen health at a higher rate and have a shorter window of vulnerability.

I really love how GW is handling criticals, longer term debuffs that can eventually overcome and compromise an individual. I really love the potential of a fight between people and while a critical focused fighter might get slain by the other fighter. That fighter is now "wounded" and while he might regenerate and become healthier he will still have to deal with these critical wounds which may make him vulnerable to rogues en-route to town.

Goblin Squad Member

Vereor Nox wrote:
@Stephen Cheney I feel GW is taking a safe middle ground which I would say is good. negligible in combat regain that can be buffed with abilities. With it increasing out of combat and again can be buffed with abilities. The trick here is balancing it out. I would like to see someone who hasn't skilled into endurance and or other fortitude type abilities to have lower regeneration rates out of combat so they can regen but are vulnerable longer after combat. While a person who has invested in those skills can get back up and recoup and regen health at a higher rate and have a shorter window of vulnerability.

I agree much with this sentiment. Perhaps that can be a function of the individual's Constitution score (employing the ability scores not only as prerequisites but as secondary statistics as well). Then again, perhaps they don't want to use ability scores in that way, and they just make regen rate a trainable skill.

Goblin Squad Member

So split! I want a little bit of everything :P

I do think that making healing items (bandages, potions, herbs, food) a much traded and player created merchandise. This would, as previously mentioned, create more to do for gatherers, crafters, and merchants.

And it would make losing health either a cost to either your wallet or your watch. Any auto heal in the game should be slow and not present in fights. Making people think twice about which fights they pick on account of their power, inventory, or distance from civilization, would probably put a much needed damper on the attack first - ask questions never mind set that often exists within PvP worlds.

A CAMP solution would be great and something that I think needs to be brought back to MMO's...new and improved. The /camp command always felt nice to use in Everquest :)

Goblin Squad Member

Pax JayBrand wrote:
...a cost to either your wallet or your watch.

Those are actually the same thing, since we pay for training time. We'll be able to express everything in terms of time: "WTS Uber-Sword +5, 5 days, 6 hours, 47 minutes" :-)

Seriously, though, the more spreadsheet-oriented will be playing with that equivalency once we get to the "looking for the last bit of financial arbitrage" stage.

Goblin Squad Member

I read through this, but not all. Why should healing be slower than dying? If my character entrusts all valuables to friends and dies; he comes back better than waiting to heal. Is that the paradigm?

Goblin Squad Member

I think out-of-combat healing should be fairly quick, especially since Goblinworks have talked about their injury system in an earlier blog (Thunderstrike I think). You will still be required to do more complicated stuff to get rid of the injury points, so I don't see why your hit points wouldn't regenerate at a fair rate.

Goblin Squad Member

In the Thunderstrike video (transcript here) they did say that hit points come back every fight. Characters now accumulate generic injury points from the critical hits they suffer, and get bad debuffs when hit points drop below current injury level. In that video, the devs said nothing about hit points regenerating during a fight.

Goblin Squad Member

I got the impression that Injuries were effectively a reduction in your maximum Hit Points. So, if you normally had 1,200 Hit Points, but had sustained 400 Injury Points, youwould be temporarily reduced to 800 Hit Points max.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Injury "covers" HP from the bottom. If you have 400 Injury and 1200 max HP, you still have 1200, but whenever you get damaged to 400 or below, you start taking penalties.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
Injury "covers" HP from the bottom. If you have 400 Injury and 1200 max HP, you still have 1200, but whenever you get damaged to 400 or below, you start taking penalties.

Cool, thanks :)

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