My eidolon is a biped of 8th lvl and large size. (this is via the large evolution).
I was planning to use a greatsword. But then I came across bastard sword, and dwarven waraxe.
1) Can my large eidolon wield any of those? Does it take any penalty? (if yes, why?) Or should I stick with my greatsword?
2) Also, if my strength is 30, when I roll to confirm if I hit or not (attack roll, right?), I use my BAB (+6) plus my str modifier? (in which case its 6+10=16) plus the d20 dice against enemy's AC?
3) In my damage rolls, I add 1 1/2 str modifier because its a two hand weapon?`Is this also correct?
I never played a non-full spellcaster before, hence I am so oblivious about such basic stuff.
edit: Greatsword is listed under:
(Martial)
Two-Handed Melee Weapons
while Dwarven Waraxe under:
(Exotic)
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Didn't notice that. I guess I cant use a bastard sword instead of greatsword as a two handed weapon. GS seems to do more damage.
what would you guys suggest for maximum damage in for my situation?
(no natural attacks or 10 hands eidolon with a sword in each hand)
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Actually, if your Eidolon is going to wield a two handed weapon, it will probably inflict more martial damage with, say, a glaive or a longspear, than it would with a greatsword. This is because it will get more Attacks of Opportunity with the reach weapon. A Large creature with an appropriately-sized reach weapon has a 50' doughtnut-shaped threat zone. This more than compensates for the slightly bigger damage dice of the greatsword.
That said, a pouncing eidolon inflicts far more martial damage than one with a weapon ever could. I DMed for Fluffy, so I know this to be so.
The reason the pouncing eidolon is so powerful is because of pounce? or is the natural attacks that are far superior than weapons?
I really wanted an optimized weapon wielding eidolon :/
I guess quadruped eidolon with a reach weapon and reach evo and feats, is not bad right? (assuming that he is wielding a two hand weapon as I imagined)
That way, I get higher dext and can qualify for pounce evolution.
Anyone has any answers to my questions at the beginning? Would help me greatly to have someone explain how does it work.
My eidolon is a biped of 8th lvl and large size. (this is via the large evolution).
I was planning to use a greatsword. But then I came across bastard sword, and dwarven waraxe.
Weapons come in sizes. A medium greatsword and a large longsword are about the same length, but balanced differently. When you say "planning do use a greatsword," do you mean a medium one or a large one?
1) Can my large eidolon wield any of those? Does it take any penalty? (if yes, why?) Or should I stick with my greatsword?
An eidolon can use any weapon for which it has the proficiency and the right number of hands available. If it's using a wrong-sized weapon, it takes the usual -2 penalty for wrong-sized weapons.
2) Also, if my strength is 30, when I roll to confirm if I hit or not (attack roll, right?), I use my BAB (+6) plus my str modifier? (in which case its 6+10=16) plus the d20 dice against enemy's AC?
Yes, plus any other modifiers that are appropriate. (E.g. if it's a +1 weapon, add another one, if you've been dazzled, subtract one, and so forth).
3) In my damage rolls, I add 1 1/2 str modifier because its a two hand weapon?`Is this also correct?
Yes. With +15 to damage, you'll be hitting hard.
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1) an eidolon with the appropriate hands can wield any weapon it has the appropriate proficiency for.
I don't believe eidolons have any base profeciencies so I think you would need to use one of it's feats to get them.
The thing about the bastard sword/dwarven waraxe/katana is that if you have all martial weapon profeciencies (like a fighter, barbarian etc...) then you can wield them two handed, but need the appropriate exotic weapon proficiency to wield them one handed.
2) Yes that is the appropriate method for making a melee attack, and your math is correct.
3) Yes. A Two handed weapon, or one handed weapon wielded with both hands while attacking, add 1.5x your strength modifier to damage, in this case Weapon damage dice +15
-additional notes-
It is good to mention that you will need to get appropriately sized weapons for your eidolon, which may be hard to find (depending on DM) and will be more expensive (although you only pay extra for the base weapon not any enchantments so it shouldn't be too much) And the other problem being that I believe an unsummoned eidolon doesn't take it's equipment with it, so you may have some trouble transporting that gargantuan greatsword without a wagon train.
The pounce thing is because of the power of natural attacks, with the greatsword your current attack stats would be:
+16/+11 2d8+15 damage each hit
While two claw attacks are:
+16/+16 1d6+10 each
Combined with pounce this allows the eidolon to move then make a full attack action, getting more attacks in, hit more often by not having diminishing bab from multiple attacks with the same weapon, and generally make a lot more attacks because eidolons can very quickly get a LOT of natural attacks from evolutions.
But if you want your Eidolon to use a weapon, then use a weapon, not everything has to be optimized.
Awww ninja'd by Orfamay, but I think I still have some good points.
Oh right the reach this aw well, the reach weapon does give a huge zone of threat, great for AoOs and for making people nervouse but you also have 10ft in every direction that you can't reach, so you have to be carefull about letting anything get close.
Less of an issue with an eidolon as you can just give it a bite attack.
Excellent. Thank you a lot.
If my eidolon is large, I have the option to wield both medium and large sized weapons without taking any penalty, correct?
Although Using a large weapon to match my eidolon is suggested for maximum damage.
I went with the scythe. It looks very cool and doesnt seem like a weak weapon (considering I am taking advantage of its insane critical bonuses) and use my reach along with scythe's trip ability and the bodyguard feat I am planning to get. All this to provide front line control to protect the back lines.
The damage for the scythe is listed as 2d4 for a medium weapon. Considering I am planning to use a large biped eidolon, I will use also a large scythe. Does that mean the weapon also moves one step when determine its dice damage?
Table: Medium and Large Weapon Damage
Medium Weapon Damage Large Weapon Damage
1d3 - 1d4
1d4 - 1d6
1d6 - 1d8
1d8 - 2d6
1d10 - 2d8
1d12 - 3d6
2d4 - 2d6
2d6 - 3d6
2d8 - 3d8
2d10 - 4d8
So my scythe will always do 2d6 right? and if I use enlarge spell in my eidolon and its weapon increases by one step ahead that means my scythe goes to 3d6 per attack. Can anyone confirm this?
If my eidolon is large, I have the option to wield both medium and large sized weapons without taking any penalty, correct?
No. A large eidolon wielding a medium sized weapon will take the inappropriately sized weapon penalty.
EDIT: removed extraneous right square bracket
the weapon I am gonna use is going be also large to match my eidolon's size and avoid penalties.
I didn't know enlarge person doesn't work on eidolons :S
I am trying so desperately to avoid natural attacks and stay viable in damage with the rest in the group :/
An Eidolon is not a valid target for Enlarge Person though, it is an outsider and unaffected. And as previously mentioned you suffer a -2 penalty for being large and using a medium weapon (even if its a medium two handed weapon in one hand)
Incorrect, any spell that would effect the summoner will effect the eidolon if the summoner casts it onto the eidolon through himself.
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I am trying so desperately to avoid natural attacks and stay viable in damage with the rest in the group :/
You should have no trouble at all in that department. Summoner is a very powerful class. I personally ban the summoner in my home games. I think it should be completely banned in PFS, also, and not just the Master Summoner archetype. No offense, Fluffy.
Your weapon-wielding, non-optimized eidolon will inflict, and take, about as much damage as would a specialized martial combatant, like a Fighter. And it's just a class feature. You still have your actual character, who is a powerful spell caster.
Imagine some poor sap in your group decides to play a single class Fighter or Rogue. That player will have a tough time matching the effectiveness of your eidolon. It can fly. It's large. It hits frequently and hard. It's immune to death. And it's not even your main schtick.
Just being a Summoner automatically gives you two characters. The eidolon is much more powerful than an animal companion. The summoner has a terrific spell list.
You should have no trouble at all keeping up, unless all the other characters are hyper-optimized Wizards, Druids, and Clerics. Even then you should do OK.
@Magda Luckbender:
Thanks for the encouraging words.
However, my two handed weapon eidolon doesnt seem to keep close with pouncer natural attacking one, or the 10000 hands/akali builds.
My idea was to make him viable with just one single big weapon but that doesn't seem to be a good choice.
Nor do I agree that it can keep up with an specialized martial combatant.
I wouldn't rely much on me (the summoner), as I am going heavily for utility and mostly buffing.
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It's true that a two-hand-weapon eidolon is less optimized than those other builds you mention. That's because they are broken, and should be banned. I, for one, congratulate you on having some restraint.
I've seen several eidolons, using the obscene builds you mention, thoroughly outpace dedicated martial combatants. Even with your iron restraint, a Large-size 30 Strength eidelon with reach will deal some serious hurt while exerting strong battlefield control ability. It's effective HP is the combined total of you and it, which is well beyond what most martial combatants can manage. Plus it can't permanently die.
I do encourage you to have a solid plan for what you will do if your eidelon 'dies' for the day. Will you rely on Summon Monster? If so, you may have many summoned monsters out at once. Have you prepared 3x5 index cards with your favorite Summon Monster stats? The idea is to pass those out to your friends as needed, so they don't get annoyed with you for having such a long combat turn.
Most classes would love to have the Summoner's Summon Monster special ability. Yet, the eidelon is so strong that most Summoners pretty much ignore this powerful ability!
Another kind response. Thanks again for persisting and trying to help. I do really appreciate it.
You made me seriously reconsider it, as the two other PC in my party are barely optimized. We usually flee from battlefield because we cant keep up. (I am not joking. We are all newbies, and very weak in tactical playing and individual strength. We usually run away). I guess the damage I will be able to put with my two handed eidolon will be enough. (if things go downhill I may just rebuild it to something more appropriate)
Another problem here is the summon monster. I decided to make an agreement with my DM, to let me exchange my summon monsters ability completely, and get 4 domains of my choice (I chose, liberation, healing, Luck/imagination, and Knowledge) and get up to 6 lvl spells at 12 lvl. (at 8 lvl I am now, I have access only up to 4 lvl spells of each domain, 5lvl spells at 10 lvl, and 6th lvl domain spells when I am 12). No higher lvl domain spells later. It stops at 6th lvl.
I can use each of those spells only once a day and no more. No metamagic nothing. I chose utility as we seriously lack and also restoration and healing magic for the same reason.
I guess thats not terrible since we barely have a fight in each session. Maybe two in exceptional cases. Hopefully I wont need those backup summons.
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One reason your group is struggling is because you are new players starting characters in a high level game. That's a recipe for confusion and trouble. Of course, it's also the only way to get new blood into an existing campaign.
High level (e.g. 12th) characters are very complicated. High level combat is quite difficult to master. Even when you've played the character for years, it can still be tricky.
When you play your character from level one up, as a team, all these issues naturally work themselves out. By the time the group is 3rd level everyone will know their role and will be good at tactical play.
Good luck!
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This reach weapon and size stuff brings up a weird point. If you are large and use a reach weapon you can hit out to 20', if you are huge and use a reach weapon it scales up to 30', right? But if you are huge and use a properly sized great sword or to get really crazy, a gargantuan bastard sword, you still only threaten out to your normal reach with this massive chunk of steel? how big would a gargantuan bastard sword be anyways, 12' of blade? Your just doing pommel strikes at that point :\
Yes this seems odd, but you can use the dwarven waraxe one handed as a martial weapon if you are large or larger.
"Waraxe, Dwarven: A dwarven waraxe has a large, ornate head mounted to a thick handle, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A Medium character can use a dwarven waraxe two-handed as a martial weapon, or a Large creature can use it one-handed in the same way. A dwarf treats a dwarven waraxe as a martial weapon even when using it in one hand."|
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1) an eidolon with the appropriate hands can wield any weapon it has the appropriate proficiency for.
I don't believe eidolons have any base profeciencies so I think you would need to use one of it's feats to get them.
The thing about the bastard sword/dwarven waraxe/katana is that if you have all martial weapon profeciencies (like a fighter, barbarian etc...) then you can wield them two handed, but need the appropriate exotic weapon proficiency to wield them one handed.
2) Yes that is the appropriate method for making a melee attack, and your math is correct.
3) Yes. A Two handed weapon, or one handed weapon wielded with both hands while attacking, add 1.5x your strength modifier to damage, in this case Weapon damage dice +15
-additional notes-
It is good to mention that you will need to get appropriately sized weapons for your eidolon, which may be hard to find (depending on DM) and will be more expensive (although you only pay extra for the base weapon not any enchantments so it shouldn't be too much) And the other problem being that I believe an unsummoned eidolon doesn't take it's equipment with it, so you may have some trouble transporting that gargantuan greatsword without a wagon train.The pounce thing is because of the power of natural attacks, with the greatsword your current attack stats would be:
+16/+11 2d8+15 damage each hit
While two claw attacks are:
+16/+16 1d6+10 each
Combined with pounce this allows the eidolon to move then make a full attack action, getting more attacks in, hit more often by not having diminishing bab from multiple attacks with the same weapon, and generally make a lot more attacks because eidolons can very quickly get a LOT of natural attacks from evolutions.
But if you want your Eidolon to use a weapon, then use a weapon, not everything has to be optimized.Awww ninja'd by Orfamay, but I think I still have some good points.
Interestingly you can use a dwarven waraxe 1 handed if you are large or larger, but not katanas.. Or in this case your Eidolon can.
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I have what I think is a related question. If a bipedal Eidolon is wielding a two-handed weapon with their arms, and has claws on their feet, can they attack with all of them in a round.
My thinking is that yes, they could, with the sword attack being primary and the two foot/claw attacks being secondary.
Am I right on this?
[EDIT - Poor grammar]
Yes, but that is due to the fact that we are talking about natural weapons.
Due to FAQs and such, you could not use a great sword and a unarmed strike (kick) at the same time via TWF, since 2 handed weapons consume your offhand attack. For 2 handed creatures, you only get 2 hands worth of work per round.
Natural attacks largely live in their own little world though. As long as you are not trying to use the same limb for 2 different kinds of attack, then it is all cool. Just think of natural attacks as 'extras' in that kind of case.
Now, you are kind of wrong on that last bit (but get the general gist)- manufactured weapons do not care about natural weapons- at all. As long as you do not reuse limbs, it is never affected. They are never secondary or primary (That is just for natural attacks). You are correct that the claws would be secondary in that case, since all natural weapons become secondary when you mix them with manufactured weapons in the same full attack.