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This has come up a couple of times in my games with summoners.
The eidolon goes to negative hit points and is unconscious. It cannot heal naturally and cure spells do not heal it. The summoner is either out of spells to heal it for the day or really needs access to his other summon abilities or he/she does not want to "waste" spells to heal it and would rather have it come back half-healed the next day.
As a GM, should this be declared an evil act?
For a Chaotic Neutral character, would this be considered acceptable behavior or should it steer the player character toward an evil alignment?
AbyssLord
I can't think of any reason why it would be considered evil to temporarily destroy something that can't permanently die. But that's just my opinion.
'Should this be declared an evil act' is a pretty subjective question. Really its all up to you.
I don't really have a problem with it personally, though it is only a standard action to dismiss the eidolon anyway so it might not be the most effective way to do things.
If the eidolon goes to zero hit points or negative, it is instantly banished.
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.
Eidolon are wonky.
If the eidolon goes to zero hit points or negative, it is instantly banished.
Close, but not quite.
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.
Would your DM (or you) consider: Euthanasia, Assisted Suicide, or ending the life of an already suffering creature evil acts? This is along the same lines and is one of those moral grey areas.
Meh. I just fluff.
"The Summoner disperses the energies of his Eidolon allowing it to restore some of it's essence before it returns the next day. This dismissal keeps the Summoner from summoning their Eidolon till the next day."
Honestly whomever was proof reading that part should have thought of Summoners killing their Eidolon so it returns healthier the next day. A clause that said "If the Eidolon has less than half of it's hit points, it regains an amount of hit points to heal it to half," would've been easy.
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Cure spells do work on an eidolon. The "heal naturally" rule refers only to hit points regained from rest.
I can see deliberately "killing" the eidolon, though, as a cheap way to get it back to 1/2 hit points from negative. After all, as long as the summoner is alive, nothing can really kill the eidolon, just banish it for a day.
Is this exploiting the rules? Arguably. This this evil? Not in my view.
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"When summoned this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned."
If it wasn't slain, then it doesn't come back with the 50% hit points. If dismissed with negative hit points, then it comes back unconscious with negative hit points.
"...if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points."
So, basically, if the party doesn't have divine magic to heal the eidolon, and the summoner has access to be able to Rejuvenate, but the summoner instead chooses to coup de grace the eidolon, this is a perfectly non-evil act?
Not sure where I read that cure spells do not work on eidolons, but that helps somewhat in the rare instance that the party does have a divine caster or a happy stick. There might be some confusion out there with the synthesist archetype. Maybe it's an interpretation of "does not heal naturally" to mean that it can only heal through the spells cast upon it by its summoner.
AbyssLord
I think the main issue is how the Eidolon will feeling it finds out you were the one who banished it because you were two lazy to get it healed. I imagine that banishment is a very painful process, personally.
So, basically, if the party doesn't have divine magic to heal the eidolon, and the summoner has access to be able to Rejuvenate, but the summoner instead chooses to coup de grace the eidolon, this is a perfectly non-evil act?
Sure it's non-evil. The summoner knows that he can just re-summon the next day and it will come back to him better off than it was. If your mother was unconscious/dying but you knew that if you killed her she would be back the next day feeling better would it make you evil to kill her?
Do creatures ferro pain? If so its pain and injury on an ally because its convenient
I think the main issue is how the Eidolon will feeling it finds out you were the one who banished it because you were two lazy to get it healed. I imagine that banishment is a very painful process, personally.
The eidolon only exists as a thing because the summoner made it be. I can't for the life of me think of why it would have any ill will towards the being that makes it be. Do wizards and clerics get punished for summoning monsters and sending them off to a usually gruesome fate at the hands of an enemy?
I think the main issue is how the Eidolon will feeling it finds out you were the one who banished it because you were two lazy to get it healed. I imagine that banishment is a very painful process, personally.The eidolon only exists as a thing because the summoner made it be. I can't for the life of me think of why it would have any ill will towards the being that makes it be. Do wizards and clerics get punished for summoning monsters and sending them off to a usually gruesome fate at the hands of an enemy?
Here's what it says about eidolons:
A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature.
According to this, they're prior-existing outsiders the summoner forms a bond with and can reshape the body of.
Fun to imagine the eidolon's reaction when it comes back. Especially if it knew it happened. I know the summoner I played would have his eidolon come back cursing up a storm.
This thread is why my Eidolon's pick up Diehard.
Of course, my Summoner & Eidolon already have the tactic when fighting a withdrawal of leaving the Eidolon to cover the rear while everyone scoots, with the understanding that as soon as the Eidolon actually falls, the Summoner starts using her SM SLA...
According to this, they're prior-existing outsiders the summoner forms a bond with and can reshape the body of.
Who get to go home and have a day off from being a murderhobo if the summoner gets them killed/lets them die.
Here's what else it says about eidolons:
The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner's desires. The eidolon's Hit Dice, saving throws, skills, feats, and abilities are tied to the summoner's class level and increase as the summoner gains levels. In addition, each eidolon receives a pool of evolution points, based on the summoner's class level, that can be used to give the eidolon different abilities and powers. Whenever the summoner gains a level, he must decide how these points are spent, and they are set until he gains another level of summoner.
How about if the powerful outsider, drifting around in the outer planes enjoying whatever it calls life, were suddenly called to the Prime plane and stuffed into a form that completely depends on what some mortal thinks it would be cool to have for a pet? Wouldn't it's first words be something along the lines of "DUDE! WTF?!?!"
According to this, they're prior-existing outsiders the summoner forms a bond with and can reshape the body of.Who get to go home and have a day off from being a murderhobo if the summoner gets them killed/lets them die.
Here's what else it says about eidolons:
The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner's desires. The eidolon's Hit Dice, saving throws, skills, feats, and abilities are tied to the summoner's class level and increase as the summoner gains levels. In addition, each eidolon receives a pool of evolution points, based on the summoner's class level, that can be used to give the eidolon different abilities and powers. Whenever the summoner gains a level, he must decide how these points are spent, and they are set until he gains another level of summoner.How about if the powerful outsider, drifting around in the outer planes enjoying whatever it calls life, were suddenly called to the Prime plane and stuffed into a form that completely depends on what some mortal thinks it would be cool to have for a pet? Wouldn't it's first words be something along the lines of "DUDE! WTF?!?!"
That is assuming the eidolon is not choosing to take on those forms to be able to gain some advantage. No one knows what the eidolon gains out of the deal, but given the bond sounds willing, they're gaining something.
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I guess that depends on the opinion of what the eidolon really represents then?
I can see it a little bit both ways.
You created it, so it exists because you made it? I don't know about that.
The description says that the summoner can summon to his side a powerful outsider...the eidolon forms a link with the summoner. This seems to indicate to me that the eidolon existed before this link was made, so that it is actually an outsider that is magically tied to the summoner once summoned for the first time. If it wasn't for the summoner, it wouldn't have to be pulled across the planes of existence to the prime.
You would hope that someone that has made such a link with an outsider wouldn't just stab it with a dagger for the sake of "the player's" metagame convenience...unless that player's player character in the game was evil.
I never thought about conjurers and the moral implications of summoning creatures to grisly dooms. I think the only saving grace there is that you summon them temporarily as allies, and what happens to them in the brief amount of time that they're around is subject to chance.
Having a dying symbiotic outsider ally and then striking them down when you are fully capable of healing them seems different in my mind.
AbyssLord
It's called Summoner, not Offerer. The eidolon really doesn't get anything out of it, unless every malleable outsider is into Domination.
To me it sounds like you pull out a sentient group of energy from another plane, press it into a mold that you think could kill stuff the best and then boss it around until it is beat to death or you decide you don't need it any more.
Eidolon life kinda sounds like it sucks. Really hard. I would hate being an Eidolon.
Who is to say it continues to exist once the Summoner is gone?
The Unfettered Eidolon entry in Beastiary 3. Pages 110-111.
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According to this, they're prior-existing outsiders the summoner forms a bond with and can reshape the body of.Who get to go home and have a day off from being a murderhobo if the summoner gets them killed/lets them die.
Here's what else it says about eidolons:
The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner's desires. The eidolon's Hit Dice, saving throws, skills, feats, and abilities are tied to the summoner's class level and increase as the summoner gains levels. In addition, each eidolon receives a pool of evolution points, based on the summoner's class level, that can be used to give the eidolon different abilities and powers. Whenever the summoner gains a level, he must decide how these points are spent, and they are set until he gains another level of summoner.How about if the powerful outsider, drifting around in the outer planes enjoying whatever it calls life, were suddenly called to the Prime plane and stuffed into a form that completely depends on what some mortal thinks it would be cool to have for a pet? Wouldn't it's first words be something along the lines of "DUDE! WTF?!?!"
Really? You made me look like Jigglypuff? How original. I want to be stabbed with a dagger so I can go back to my original form on my home plane. Now.
I'm playing a summoner right now and I play it as my eidolon loves me and wants to follow my character... in fact, he gets annoyed when he doesn't think I'm being adored and treated as wonderfully as I should (because every girl needs someone who's behind her 100%). However, my character could never think about killing him. It would be like biting your own finger off and not something done lightly, even if he will come back at half hit points the next day. But I notice the books leave it very vague, and some summoners seem to prefer "summoned tool" to the way I see it as "summoned ally". I wouldn't call it evil, but I would say that your eidolon would be completely right to tell you off afterward. Also, this is what house rules are for. If I found a player abusing that rule by killing it rather than healing it, I'd add the rule that this is considered an evil act and will eventually turn your character evil, in the same way that summoning a creature with the evil descriptor will eventually turn your summoner evil.
As for summoners not getting called for their shaky morality for summoning creatures to get bopped on the head like field mice, I think it is because of the way 2nd edition D&D Planescape described the process. When someone from a Prime summons a creature to aid them, that creature comes and must obey the summoner. However, when they die or the spell ends, they return to the planes in whatever state they were in before they were summoned. It hurts, but since to them it isn't "real" the pain fades within moments and since no "permanent" harm was done, it is not considered an evil act.
Interestingly enough, if you want to have a fun game, have a group of planar characters randomly summoned down to fight on the Prime. How each reacts after they get back is a great opportunity for role playing!
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Evil? No. You're not killing the creature. It's a summon. It still exists even though its copy is destroyed.
Evil? No. You're not killing the creature. It's a summon. It still exists even though its copy is destroyed.
Summoners... The original Xerox Photocopier.
That's exactly what they are! lol. Powerful being? Come! *bzzzzt* *done*
This makes me wonder. Are there planets on other planes entirely populated by celestial gorillas and other summons? Where do they come from? Do they have lives their constantly called from to come and punch something for you?
What if your level two rat folk rogue summon you just called was in the middle of his anniversary dinner with Mrs.Ratfolk? Do they all have a pager and are just on call sometimes and sometimes not?
When someone from a Prime summons a creature to aid them, that creature comes and must obey the summoner. However, when they die or the spell ends, they return to the planes in whatever state they were in before they were summoned. It hurts, but since to them it isn't "real" the pain fades within moments and since no "permanent" harm was done, it is not considered an evil act.
So summoning a random creature to take a beating and most likely die knowing that it will go back to being the way it was afterwards is not evil but killing a powerful outsider knowing that it will go back to being the way it was afterwards is evil? No "permanent" harm is done to an eidolon, hit points run out it goes home for a while.
Summons are on the spot copies of another creature. If a creature was "physically" pulled from one place in the multiverse and placed in front of you, then that would be a calling effect.
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Evil? No. You're not killing the creature. It's a summon. It still exists even though its copy is destroyed.Summoners... The original Xerox Photocopier.
I think they need a 3D printer to summon their Eidolon.
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Why do you think the ritual takes a minute? It has to render.
I will give you that, Simon. I think the real difference is in what the creature is to you. If its nothing but a tool that the summoner calls for their amusement then it isn't evil, it practical. If its a friend and ally, then its evil.
Don't know if I like that outlook on it, but I will admit that yes, in this case it feels a bit like what's good for the goose is not good for gander, since you know this particular goose. Definitely a grey area and one I'd love to see a Dev comment on it, since they did leave it so vague and open to interpretation.
Thank you, AbyssLord, for posting this. Its a fascinating question!
Why do you think the ritual takes a minute? It has to render.
This is just awesome! ^_^
Why do you think the ritual takes a minute? It has to render.
Only in a fantasy world of magic could a 3D person render in only one minute.
I will give you that, Simon. I think the real difference is in what the creature is to you. If its nothing but a tool that the summoner calls for their amusement then it isn't evil, it practical. If its a friend and ally, then its evil.
Don't know if I like that outlook on it, but I will admit that yes, in this case it feels a bit like what's good for the goose is not good for gander, since you know this particular goose. Definitely a grey area and one I'd love to see a Dev comment on it, since they did leave it so vague and open to interpretation.
Thank you, AbyssLord, for posting this. Its a fascinating question!
Which is more evil: punching a random stranger in the face knowing you'll never see them again or punching your friend in the face knowing you'll have to deal with how he/she feels about it for a long time afterward?
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If my First Worthy Prey would be better served and rested by being cut down, I will do so. She and I have both endured far worse in the jungle beyond death, and should she fail in her duties as hunts-kin it is only fitting she be reminded of how she became hunts-kin to begin with. It is how she died the first time after all.
I have hunting to do, and if she becomes more of a burden than a boon, it is best she return to the Abyss.
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In all seriousness the Ultimate Campaign book has a lot to say on eidolons.
Eidolons: Outside the linear obedience and intelligence scale of sentient and nonsentient companions are eidolons: intelligent entities magically bound to you. Whether you wish to roleplay this relationship as friendly or coerced, the eidolon is inclined to obey you unless you give a command only to spite it. An eidolon would obey a cruel summoner's order to save a child from a burning building, knowing that at worst the fire damage would temporarily banish it, but it wouldn't stand in a bonfire just because the summoner said to. An eidolon is normally a player-controlled companion, but the GM can have the eidolon refuse extreme orders that would cause it to suffer needlessly.
Eidolon: Compared to an animal companion or cohort, an eidolon is a unique type of companion—it is intelligent and loyal to you, and you have absolute power over whether it is present in the material world or banished to its home plane. You literally have the power to reshape the eidolon's body using the transmogrify spell, and though technically the eidolon can resist this—the Saving Throw is "Will negates (harmless)"—it is assumed that the eidolon complies with what you want. After all, the eidolon can't actually be killed while summoned; at worst, it might experience pain before damage sends it back to its home plane. This means the eidolon is usually willing to take great risks to help you. If swimming through acid was the only way to save you, it would do so, knowing that it won't die and will recover. The eidolon is a subservient creature whose very nature depends upon your will, so you decide what feats, skill points, ability score increases, and evolutions the eidolon gains as it advances.
Given these, I honestly don't think the eidolon would really care. It knows it's coming back. It depends on you for existence, or, at least, shape and meaning as you pick its abilities. It is subservient to you. Even though it might not understand it likely won't protest.
Which is more evil: punching a random stranger in the face knowing you'll never see them again or punching your friend in the face knowing you'll have to deal with how he/she feels about it for a long time afterward?I will give you that, Simon. I think the real difference is in what the creature is to you. If its nothing but a tool that the summoner calls for their amusement then it isn't evil, it practical. If its a friend and ally, then its evil.
Don't know if I like that outlook on it, but I will admit that yes, in this case it feels a bit like what's good for the goose is not good for gander, since you know this particular goose. Definitely a grey area and one I'd love to see a Dev comment on it, since they did leave it so vague and open to interpretation.
Thank you, AbyssLord, for posting this. Its a fascinating question!
Evil done to a friend certainly makes me feel worse than evil done to a stranger. It's a cruel thing to say, but morality-wise, I would put evil done to a friend as worse, making it more evil.
Kassa, you are awesome! Kuzunoha would never get along with you (she hates it when her eidolon gets hurt and insists that he gets cured before she does by the party healer if she's out of spells) but a game where the two met would certainly be awesome!
Kuzunoha is firmly Chaotic Neutral. She can be cold and actually has psychopathic tendencies, needing to kill (what she considers to be) sentient species if she gets too stressed out. On the other hand, she only does it with the intention of "protecting her friends", which helps along with her basically protective, and occasionally self-sacrificing, nature to keep her neutral.