Crane Wing Errata in latest printing


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Free Wishes Derail:
Ashram wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
I think most of the frustration is that MONKS are getting nerfed and wizards can still go "doh hoy hoy hoy here I am casting free wishes with blood money!"
Yeah, if they have like 50 Strength to have damaged. If you're going to make an analogy, at least be believable.

Ha. That's funny.

Leadership(get clerics) + Ray of Enfeeblement(your Strength can't drop below 1 while affected by the RoE) + Blood Money = Free Wishes.

Get Lesser Restorations from your clerics and BAM you're good to go again.


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I feel this is worthy posting twice:

Scavion wrote:

It's frustrating. There are folks who popped in to just say they were happy about the ruling then left, they don't even care if it isn't functional anymore. They left without even a thought on "Well I hope they make it at least a good choice" comment.

They just wanted it gone. Some characters had a neat trick and they just wanted to not deal with it anymore. Those people were PFS GMs.

That's disgusting to me. Thats why I mentioned PFS. It's why I hate it to be honest, among other reasons. In PFS you can rely upon a few cheap tricks and you'll be set. GMs are pretty powerless to stop you.

In a real game, intelligent enemies will adapt and the GM can tailor the encounters to the party. You'll feel your choices validated and yet they won't feel overpowering. At least a good GM can do these things.

I'm fairly certain this errata occurred because people were complaining on the PFS forums. I know theres been good debate in the normal forums on Crane Wing. I know there have been several discussions in the PFS forum as well, mostly clamoring to ban it. I had hoped that those discussions would have equal merit in determining this sort of thing, but apparently I was wrong.

If PFS is going to have such a strong pull on rules errata why bother making any other set of rules?

Scavion makes a really good point here. If PFS is the problem, then simply ban the feat in PFS. Don't nerf it into uselessness!


Ehh non-martial stuff is pretty good.


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Marthkus wrote:
Ehh non-martial stuff is pretty good.

Depends on how well you stomach vancian casting.


MrSin wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Ehh non-martial stuff is pretty good.
Depends on how well you stomach vancian casting.

Never had a problem with it. :p


MrSin wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Ehh non-martial stuff is pretty good.
Depends on how well you stomach vancian casting.

Like old testament mana.


Azten wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Ehh non-martial stuff is pretty good.
Depends on how well you stomach vancian casting.
Never had a problem with it. :p

*raises cup*

To Catholicism!


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I'm sure a few can attest that I've been a vocal supporter of a nerf (although I prefer "tone down") to Crane Wing. I mostly had issues with the lack of a consideration to size of the attacker.

Still, count me now among the horrified. Even I feel that what has happened is not a nerf, it is an evisceration. Why couldn't it have been some sort of opposed roll, modified by size differences, useable in any defensive state.

Ryujin and those I've clashed with before, I hereby buy you a round of internet drinks for us to drown our errata sorrows in. I never wanted this.


Marthkus wrote:
Azten wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Ehh non-martial stuff is pretty good.
Depends on how well you stomach vancian casting.
Never had a problem with it. :p

*raises cup*

To Catholicism!

Old Testament mana you say? Interesting...


The Black Bard wrote:

I'm sure a few can attest that I've been a vocal supporter of a nerf (although I prefer "tone down") to Crane Wing. I mostly had issues with the lack of a consideration to size of the attacker.

Still, count me now among the horrified. Even I feel that what has happened is not a nerf, it is an evisceration. Why couldn't it have been some sort of opposed roll, modified by size differences, useable in any defensive state.

Ryujin and those I've clashed with before, I hereby buy you a round of internet drinks for us to drown our errata sorrows in. I never wanted this.

Hmm, I was also thinking an opposed roll would be good originally, but you know, if they change it to be retroactive, the +4 AC is possibly better on average than an opposed roll (since you will be rolling against an enemy's attack that you already know overcame your AC, so even if normally you have a higher to-hit than the enemy, if you can't reliably beat your own AC + 4, the current errata is actually stronger than an opposed roll).


Sorry for not having enough time to read through the entire thread, but did they ever mention a fix to the fact that one of the crane style feats is now unusable?


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Void Dragon wrote:
Sorry for not having enough time to read through the entire thread, but did they ever mention a fix to the fact that one of the crane style feats is now unusable?

Not yet no. Hopefully they will. Seems hard to miss.


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MrSin wrote:
Void Dragon wrote:
Sorry for not having enough time to read through the entire thread, but did they ever mention a fix to the fact that one of the crane style feats is now unusable?
Not yet no. Hopefully they will. Seems hard to miss.

Idk they missed more than a few rogue talents...


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MrSin wrote:
Void Dragon wrote:
Sorry for not having enough time to read through the entire thread, but did they ever mention a fix to the fact that one of the crane style feats is now unusable?
Not yet no. Hopefully they will. Seems hard to miss.

Maybe they'll look at the blowback, decide it's not worth it, and go back to the drawing board for another couple of years.

It happened during the Great Flurry Fiasco of '12, so maybe there's still hope for this bird.


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Athaleon wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Void Dragon wrote:
Sorry for not having enough time to read through the entire thread, but did they ever mention a fix to the fact that one of the crane style feats is now unusable?
Not yet no. Hopefully they will. Seems hard to miss.
Maybe they'll look at the blowback, decide it's not worth it, and go back to the drawing board for another couple of years.

You'd think they would have posted the Errata to the FAQs or something first before changing it that much.


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Athaleon wrote:
Maybe they'll look at the blowback, decide it's not worth it, and go back to the drawing board for another couple of years.

I wouldn't put my money on it.

Marthkus wrote:
Idk they missed more than a few rogue talents...

How many did they get? I'll put my money on rumormonger being safe.


Athaleon wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Void Dragon wrote:
Sorry for not having enough time to read through the entire thread, but did they ever mention a fix to the fact that one of the crane style feats is now unusable?
Not yet no. Hopefully they will. Seems hard to miss.
Maybe they'll look at the blowback, decide it's not worth it, and go back to the drawing board for another couple of years.

That, or utterly destroy another good style chain. Can't let MoMS monks have both Crane AND Snake styles up, after all. Oh no, better make it so Snake Fang uses up your standard action next turn instead of an immediate.


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WHY did they have to nerf this feat before I got a chance to use it?
WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?!


meatrace wrote:

WHY did they have to nerf this feat before I got a chance to use it?

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?!

Same here. I *just* took this feat for my Monk. However, I'm fairly certain my GM will ignore the errata on it as he tends to follow my own rulings in his games.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Oh, great, another useful feat turned into useless dreck. One which needs a three feat chain with prerequisites to boot. Are casters ever going to get a nerf, too, or just the already half useless classes?

Bad form, Paizo developer team, bad form. :(


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magnuskn wrote:

Oh, great, another useful feat turned into useless dreck. One which needs a three feat chain with prerequisites to boot. Are casters ever going to get a nerf, too, or just the already half useless classes?

Coming up next, the Arcanist and also nine other things!


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Athaleon wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Oh, great, another useful feat turned into useless dreck. One which needs a three feat chain with prerequisites to boot. Are casters ever going to get a nerf, too, or just the already half useless classes?

Coming up next, the Arcanist and also nine other things!

The Arcanist experience? Or Arcanist and Friends?

Find out next time...


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NEW RAGE POWER!

Raging defense wrote:


You move with the speed and finesse of an avian hunter, your sweeping blocks and graceful motions allowing you to deflect melee attacks with ease.

Prerequisites: Barbarian 2

Benefit: Once per round you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you


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Marthkus wrote:

NEW RAGE POWER!

Raging defense wrote:


You move with the speed and finesse of an avian hunter, your sweeping blocks and graceful motions allowing you to deflect melee attacks with ease.

Prerequisites: Barbarian 2

Benefit: Once per round you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you

Tack it on to Divine Grace imo.


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Paladin wrote:
Divine Grace: At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all Saving Throws. In addition, once per round you can deflect an effect that triggers a saving throw. You expend no action to deflect the effect, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An effect so deflected has no affect on you.


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The big thing I don't get is that the devs don't seem to have any granularity when it comes to nerfing things. I recognize that as a turtly feat, crane wing was pretty strong. It has a good deal of prereqs, so I wouldn't call it too OP, but I can see why they might want to nerf it. However off the top of my head, I can think of at least two alternatives they could have taken to make the feat still viable:

1) Force the deflect to be chosen before the attack roll is made. If the attack would miss anyway, you don't get to use Crane Riposte (basically to prevent just using it to get a free bonus attack every turn; you'll still get it a fair amount of the time, but it's not guaranteed).

2) It's only a +4 Dodge bonus, but you get to choose after the roll has been made. If the attack misses, you get to use Crane Riposte as if it were deflected

Either one of these would nerf it down to reasonable levels. #1 still somewhat hoses a single enemy Boss-monster, but chances are the Action Economy has already done that. #2 is more reasonable, in that aspect, but it's also more certain, which I think was one of the problems the devs had, but the overall power level of the above two alternatives are much more in line with what the feat should be, than what they errata'd it to. The big thing that perplexes me is why they decided that Crane Wing was where they'd bring the Nerf Bat down. I know certain developers have issue with the fact that martials (monks especially) aren't weak enough, but I still wouldn't have expected that this is what they decided went too far.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
And the PRD was mis-updated. Crane Riposte has the new Crane Wing text while Crane Wing still has the old text.

On the upside, at least the errata was posted to the prd. Last time I looked, the errata for wordcasting from ultimate magic hadn't been applied yet.

Coriat wrote:
at least the one over on Advice is moving slower, though I have no idea why it's on Advice

I started the one in advice because I hardly ever look in general discussion and because I was hoping for advice on how to still make the feat chain useful.

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