I thought I'd be angry at this, but I actually found I was okay with this. It isn't that I think Monks are strong or anything, but Crane Style was always the one style that did way more than other style feats.
They goofed on the PRD though, and replaced Crane Riposte's description with the errata'd Crane Wing description, while not changing the actual Crane Wing.
Well now I'm hoping I get free rebuilds on my two PFS characters built around the Crane Style feat trees.
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This was a stupid errata. Simple as that.
It really does go to show that non-spell casters can't have nice things.
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Bwuhahaha! Glad to see paizo going out of their way to make my house rules more balanced.
(Fighters and rogues in my games are the same class gestalt-ed together. IMHO still under-powered. Monks get a bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, CMB, CMD, and AC equal to what was once their progressive monk armor bonus)
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So, does anyone think the new version is balanced?Yeah! it's about on par with, say, anything else a martial can have.
Oh magic 8 ball, the ways of the world have shifted once more. Tell me what I must do to have fun and options!
Friggin' 8-ball tells me that every time! I'll play a warlock instead next week I think. That'll show it...
Crane Riposte now does nothing. You can't take an AO while doing Total Defense.
Oh, I had forgotten about that, double sad.
It isn't that I think Monks are strong or anything, but Crane Style was always the one style that did way more than other style feats.
On the other hand, style feats aren't known for being too amazing outside of particular circumstances. They still tend to be cherry picked and we leave the lame ones behind. [/devil's advocate]
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It isn't that I think Monks are strong or anything, but Crane Style was always the one style that did way more than other style feats.On the other hand, style feats aren't known for being too amazing outside of particular circumstances. They still tend to be cherry picked and we leave the lame ones behind. [/devil's advocate]
You're right. But that's actually why I personally felt okay with Crane Style being nerfed. It kind of crowded out the rest of the style feats.
Consider the other "good" style feats. For example, I could never have seen myself building Snake Style over Crane Style before this change, even though they performed a somewhat similar role, because Crane Style just seemed so much better.
It is less of me liking nerfs to an already weak class, but more like a nerf to one style that was much better than the others.
On the other hand, I'm not sure the way they did it was the right way, especially since they did not also errata Crane Riposte, so now it just does not work.
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Wow. How awful. Declare before the roll? Talk about huge nerfs.
And Crane Riposte is rendered useless since you cant take AoO during Total Defense.
I feel bad for all the cool monk builds we got outta that. Hamstrung.
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That's actually kind of why I personally felt okay with Crane Style being nerfed. It kind of crowded out the rest of the style feats.It isn't that I think Monks are strong or anything, but Crane Style was always the one style that did way more than other style feats.On the other hand, style feats aren't known for being too amazing outside of particular circumstances. They still tend to be cherry picked and we leave the lame ones behind. [/devil's advocate]
Eh, not sure if its okay to drag things into the mud. Makes more sense to me to make things better than to do that. Wouldn't it make more sense to make them all attractive rather?
That's actually kind of why I personally felt okay with Crane Style being nerfed. It kind of crowded out the rest of the style feats.It isn't that I think Monks are strong or anything, but Crane Style was always the one style that did way more than other style feats.On the other hand, style feats aren't known for being too amazing outside of particular circumstances. They still tend to be cherry picked and we leave the lame ones behind. [/devil's advocate]Eh, not sure if its okay to drag things into the mud. Makes more sense to me to make things better than to do that. Wouldn't it make more sense to make them all attractive rather?
Then why does the wizard still live?
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I'm sure that Paizo tested this on their own (and got feedback from VOs in PFS) before changing it (which might explain the long wait to fix it). Honestly, if Paizo changed this based on the ludicrous "playtesting" that occurs on these boards, I would be shocked beyond belief (and they would deserve the scorn and damage to the rules this would cause).
That said, this is the most epic nerf I've seen in a long time. This just destroyed the main feature of several whole builds. That's a pretty shady thing to do (regardless of whether it was needed or not). I know some PFS folks who will be trashing whole characters shortly. That's pretty drastic (especially for people who might only play once a week... You're talking about 3 months of play to get to 4th level...)!
I'm not certain they did playtest this. One of the feats dependent upon this one now cannot do anything due to how the combat rules are written.
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Then why does the wizard still live?That's actually kind of why I personally felt okay with Crane Style being nerfed. It kind of crowded out the rest of the style feats.It isn't that I think Monks are strong or anything, but Crane Style was always the one style that did way more than other style feats.On the other hand, style feats aren't known for being too amazing outside of particular circumstances. They still tend to be cherry picked and we leave the lame ones behind. [/devil's advocate]Eh, not sure if its okay to drag things into the mud. Makes more sense to me to make things better than to do that. Wouldn't it make more sense to make them all attractive rather?
because the wizards not a poppy, he's a tree, and how dare the poppy reach near even the bottom branch of a tree.
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I'm sure that Paizo tested this on their own (and got feedback from VOs in PFS) before changing it (which might explain the long wait to fix it). Honestly, if Paizo changed this based on the ludicrous "playtesting" that occurs on these boards, I would be shocked beyond belief (and they would deserve the scorn and damage to the rules this would cause).
Obviously they didn't test this thoroughly since Crane Riposte is rendered completely useless.
Can't wait for power attack errata!
Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can as a standard action choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until the end of your turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
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Then why does the wizard still live?
Martial-Caster Disparity is somewhat subtle. Its power is through versatility and narrative strength rather than being explosively powerful. Not quiet a tall poppy.(though some might disagree with me)
There are other reasons that its probably better I not discuss. Probably best to drop this right here to be honest.
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Naw Crane Riposte adds an exception allowing you to do that one specific AOO.
Here is my theory. Paizo is trying to make feats more like rogue talents before they announce that they are going to gestalt together both fighter and rogue in future printings.
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Hopefully Paizo will address the implications that the Crane Wing change will have on Crane Riposte.
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Or is this because I said in the Swashbuckler thread that this was great for Swashbucklers?You know, you might have been joking when you posted that, but it makes a lot of sense. One of the main complaints against the Swashbuckler Parry was that it was so much less than Crane Wing (a feat that anyone could take). Now that the ACG is in production, they fix the problem by... nerfing Crane Wing! LOL!
If it hasn't been made abundantly clear to you, paizo wants you to play their classes, not the ones they inherited from 3.5.
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Another horrible errata to ignore. I'm truly disappointed with Paizo. Martials really can't have nice things...
BTW, here is a list of things that counter Crane wing:
- ranged attacks
- most combat maneuvers
- multiple attacks
- spells
- catching your opponent flat-footed
All of these are extremely common...
I think the dodge bonus should be to ALL attacks in the round rather than just one, and keep the auto-deflect for total defense. Change Crane Riposte so that it's no longer an AoO, but rather an immediate action retalitory strike. Lowers Crane style to be more in line with other style feats, but doesn't render it useless either.
Hm. I think I'm gonna end up blaming PFS for this one then.
What is Crane Style most effective against? Humanoid enemies with iterative attacks. What enemies are most prevalent in PFS Scenarios?
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Another horrible errata to ignore. I'm truly disappointed with Paizo. Martials really can't have nice things...
BTW, here is a list of things that counter Crane wing:
- ranged attacks
- most combat maneuvers
- multiple attacks
- spells
- catching your opponent flat-footedAll of these are extremely common...
No no no no. Martials who are not the Barbarian or don't cast spells can't have nice things.
I honestly don't see the merit in this much of a nerf to this spell.
*drinks the tears*
*Agrees with the ruling*
*departs*
....
*opens mouth*....
*closes mouth*
Eh, not sure if its okay to drag things into the mud. Makes more sense to me to make things better than to do that. Wouldn't it make more sense to make them all attractive rather?
Either way works. It's just buffing everything is a lot more work than nerfing one thing.
Hm. I think I'm gonna end up blaming PFS for this one then.
What is Crane Style most effective against? Humanoid enemies with iterative attacks. What enemies are most prevalent in PFS Scenarios?
That's easy to fix. Just reset the PFS characters to 10 point buy.
Hm. I think I'm gonna end up blaming PFS for this one then.
What is Crane Style most effective against? Humanoid enemies with iterative attacks. What enemies are most prevalent in PFS Scenarios?
Lets see. People who have said they agreed with the ruling...
PFS GMs by a large majority.
I get that in the prebuilt scenarios that feature lots of humanoid enemies with a single attack or iterative attacks it can be powerful.
I didn't want to think PFS had such a huge sway over balance. And I can't believe that it came down on a martial tool too.
In anything but PFS you can just make up house rules.
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In anything but PFS you can just make up house rules.
I know but it's frustrating since the playtesting that was done to determine this "unbalance" was in PFS.
I can only imagine how it went. "Look at this Monk, he's deflecting all our single enemy boss encounters single handedly! We need to stop this now."
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This change kills a few characters I had planned for society without doubt. And it's also an excellent example of the inherent problems with only having errata if/when reprints happen; they nerf one feat and in the process render a second feat completely non-functional. Now we will either have another FAQ entry for Crane Riposte, or possibly have to wait another 2.5 years for a third printing to rewrite Riposte to do anything at all.
I must be playing the wrong scenarios, because I have yet to play a "single boss" final fight yet. Always at least 3 dudes/dudettes.
Too bad they couldnt errata prone shooter into something interesting. They could have given you a +X to attacks, seeing as you're more stable.
Hoepfully they will be generous to those PFS builds that have been annihilated by this errata.
In anything but PFS you can just make up house rules.I know but it's frustrating since the playtesting that was done to determine this "unbalance" was in PFS.
I can only imagine how it went. "Look at this Monk, he's deflecting all our single enemy boss encounters single handedly! We need to stop this now."
At some point I'll search up my playtest thread, which I'm not even sure was a large factor in the decision but is still a good read. While there was one egregious case of a skeletal t-rex, there were VERY rarely single boss encounters, and there were way fewer humanoids than you might expect in the games I wound up playing, and a lot more ghouls for some reason.
The typical egregiousness was for me to be surrounded by, say, 4ish ghoul-based enemies that should be weaker than me in theory but are actually at my same CR because I was playing up. Each of these non-humanoids often have something like a bite/claw/claw, so three attacks. With flanking bonuses included, they will typically need something like 19 or 20 to hit. At first, they get 1 (or 2 if extremely lucky) hits per round, deflected to 0 (or 1 if extremely lucky) hits per round, but it quickly becomes 0-1 hits per round deflected to 0 hits per round, and they all die. Meanwhile, I would have died without Crane 5 times over (since it provided +4 AC and also deflected one hit per round).
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They should nerf flight too.
It negates all melee attacks, after all.
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I must be playing the wrong scenarios, because I have yet to play a "single boss" final fight yet. Always at least 3 dudes/dudettes.
Too bad they couldnt errata prone shooter into something interesting. They could have given you a +X to attacks, seeing as you're more stable.
Hoepfully they will be generous to those PFS builds that have been annihilated by this errata.
Nah it's not a rage power.
Raging Prone Bow(EX)
While raging you may fire all rang weapon while prone. You may add your strength modifier to-hit while using range weapons in addition to dex. While raging make a sunder attempt against any crossbow in your hands as a free action that must be repeated until crossbow is destroyed.
+6 to saves that require rolling dice.
I must be playing the wrong scenarios, because I have yet to play a "single boss" final fight yet. Always at least 3 dudes/dudettes.
The Dalsine Affair and Fortress of the Nail have rather notorious ones. For different reasons.
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I think I can make a crane wing rogue talent version
Benefit: Once per day, when fighting defensively
with at least one hand free, you can designate one melee
attack being made against you before the roll is made.
You receive a +4 dodge bonus to AC against that attack.
If you using the total defense action instead, you can
def lect one melee attack that would normally hit you.
An attack so def lected deals no damage and has no other
effect (instead treat it as a miss). You do not expend an
action when using this feat, but you must be aware of the
attack and not f lat-footed.
With flanking bonuses included, they will typically need something like 19 or 20 to hit.
If they only hit you on a 20, Crane Wing is not to blame for it being an easy fight.
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Was about to say "You forgot the Once per Day."
I cracked up.
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I think I can make a crane wing rogue talent version
Don't forget to give it a pile of prereqs, most of which are arbitrary and to make sure none of those non monks try to get it.
With flanking bonuses included, they will typically need something like 19 or 20 to hit.If they only hit you on a 20, Crane Wing is not to blame for it being an easy fight.
I just responded to that in another thread. Crane gave me that AC, without which there was no possible way I could have gotten a replacement, so they would have hit on a 15 instead of 19.
Also, with 4 of them, they are VERY likely to roll a 19 once per round because they throw 12 attacks around. It's a balancing factor of ghouls. They could have easily thrown in 4 dudes with 1 attack each but +4 more to hit who each hit me on a 15 instead, and the math works out very similarly and still in Crane Wing's favor.
So no, Crane Wing is completely to blame. Even if I ignored the +4 to AC completely, I am telling you right now that I deflected enough attacks to kill me. That in itself is proof that Crane Wing was necessary for victory (since I couldn't have deflected those without it, and they were enough to kill me).