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Consolidating my thoughts from another thread here since we have several running at once:
Honestly, I am not a fan of anything that allows auto hit or auto negation. So in that sense, there are several feats/spells/ect. I'd like to see rewritten. But as I see it, it's an all or nothing proposition.
I just wish I could be a fly on the wall to overhear the conversation that happens regarding game balance with the devs, because I simply do not understand some of their decisions.
Crane Wing was definitely strong. But is it truly that much stronger than Deflect Arrows?
That much stronger than allowing Oracles to use their casting stat for their AC without Dex restriction from armor?
That much stronger than a halfling Aldori Swordlord gaining +10 to AC with no penalty to hit when fighting defensively?
That much stronger than a tanked Paladin using Divine Interference to make his opponent re-roll their attack roll (and likely need another 20)?
That much stronger than Mirror Image?
That much stronger than gunslingers targeting touch AC in 95% of game play?
That much stronger than signature deed with the crazy Up Close and Deadly?
That much stronger than a rage pouncing decked out barbarian or perfect charge cavalier one shoting someone?
I understand game balance is a very delicate and complicated issue. You may note I included both powerful defensive and offensive abilities in my examples above. That is because both of these elements equally factor into the game, and bear consideration both independently and as a whole.
What confuses me most is this: It seems to me that the game designers are mostly ok with incredibly strong offensive abilities and combinations, but powerful defensive abilities are often censored more sternly or generally less effective comparatively.
I personally don't mind a change to Crane Wing, I just think the one they made was incredibly subpar. I would have rather seen the entire feat line get a minor tweak along these lings:
Crane Style: Perfect as is.
Crane Wing: Increase the fighting defensively AC bonus by an additional +1, and once per round when struck you may attempt to make an opposed attack roll as an attack of opportunity to negate the hit.
Crane Riposte: Reduce the penalty to hit from fighting defensively by 1, and when you successfully employ Crane Wing deflection you may make an immediate attack roll against the character you blocked.
Anyone mad because they actually use crane wing or have player who use crane? Or are most of us just furious at the idea the one of the few mildly useful feats out there was nerfed into the ground?
We will be using the old version until such a time that they can fix it PROPERLY.
I read this silently, but I want you to know that inside of my head, it sounded like Bernie Wooster, and that made me smile.
I'm running Carrion Crown and my monk player has styled his character entirely around this feat tree, so he was pretty upset. I already told him I'm flat out disregarding this errata as it is ridiculous.
Luckily the game I'm actually playing in, with a character who is built around being a duelist in the vein of L5R and uses this feat tree, the GM has stated that he too will be ignoring this Errata. He also expressed that it should have been a PFS only rule not a general addendum.
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It would be interesting to read the reasons of your conclusion.I've read pretty much everything there is to read about this change and I have come to one conclusion: This ruling is chock full of hypocrisy.
It's all over these Crane threads.
- Saying it needed fixing for balance reasons when there are literally dozens of better, presumably more broken, options available.
- Nerfing martial characters while leaving casters alone.
- Applying a "fix" to the general game for what amounted to a PFS problem (which in itself arose due to bad game design, not the feats).
There are quite a few double standards in place, or being newly implemented, hence my use of the term "hypocrisy."
Anyone mad because they actually use crane wing or have player who use crane? Or are most of us just furious at the idea the one of the few mildly useful feats out there was nerfed into the ground?
My MoMS was already retired at level 12 because that particular campaign is over (because it's time to switch DMs). I had a arcane duelist/dervish dancer bard on the drawing board, but that now going to be stillborn.
This is not the first example of an over-nerf (remember Heirloom Weapon ?) and sadly I'm sure it won't be the last.
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That much stronger than gunslingers targeting touch AC in 95% of game play?
This, this is what absolutely boggles my mind. I believe James Jacobs stated that he wanted a penetration value assigned to types of firearms to designate how much AC they could ignore. Instead, the dev team overruled him, changing it to touch attacks within 1/5 range increments. Which means, as written by the Devs, it okay if your 1700s era flint-lock pistol shoots through the mythic archmage's 13 points of super-force armor or the great wyrm red dragons several inches of overlapping scales that put an Abrams tank to shame. This same team decided that taking 4 feats to negate a single melee attack against you each round, provided you're not flat-footed, stunned, paralyzed, being attacked by an invisible thing, or unable to use your hands, is too powerful. The amount of scrutiny being given to these mechanics appears to be in inverse proportion to how powerful they really are. It's more than a little bewildering.
What's more bewildering is how they thought THIS level of nerfing on Crane Wing was warranted. They kept everything that was a downside to the feat: the prereqs, the needing to fight defensively at least, the once a round part, you have to be aware and ready for the attack. Then, for good measure, they added MORE. Dodge bonuses don't work if you're denied Dex, a fact they clearly missed when deciding to type it that way. That's right, a simple successful feint completely negates the benefits of this feat. Plus, instead of being reactive to a confirmed hit, now the defender has to guess at what attack will actually hit them. Being forced to guess each and every single round when you have more than one melee attack directed at you after this much feat investment is fantastically lame. Last but not least, total defense is a joke. Any monster or enemy worth their salt and with two brain cells to rub together will be able to see the attacker isn't threatening them anymore and just walk off to chow down on the wizard or rogue. Half the usage of this feat now HURTS party play! All this and not even gone into the counter-intuitive fall-out on Crane Riposte yet either.
Now, it's possible we're all not seeing the big picture here. People tend to do that, I'm certainly not immune. From what can be seen, though, the only place this has every really been heavily complained about was in PFS. Jason Bulmahn says they got data from elsewhere that also informed their decision, but we have no idea what that might be. Considering the uproar from this, maybe it'd be worth it to share some of that reasoning and data with us? You have a lot of people who don't think the feat was necessarily perfectly balanced before. Lump them into the 'it needed to be nerfed hardcore' crowd and a very sizeable portion of the player-base would almost certainly support a partial roll-back to a more reasonable revision of Crane Wing. Hell, I'd support it and I thought the feat was fine beforehand.
Anyways, my $0.02 on the decision and the rationale behind it.
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Anyone mad because they actually use crane wing or have player who use crane? Or are most of us just furious at the idea the one of the few mildly useful feats out there was nerfed into the ground?
I don't know if mad is the word so much as bewildered and/or disappointed when you look at other options still alive and well, but to answer your question directly: both.
I only have 6 pathfinder characters. Only one used Crane Style, and that character is retired at 19th level. So I may not have a direct dog in this fight, but what I do know is that anything that further damages monks (or rogues) is a bad call.
They could have instead simply made the style usable while only unarmed if the various splash builds employing it were a stronger concern than the feat mechanics themselves.
They could have instead simply made the style usable while only unarmed if the various splash builds employing it were a stronger concern than the feat mechanics themselves.
Yes but that wouldn't have nerfed those OP monks.
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Easily one of the biggest nerfs ive ever seen in paper and pencil. Like this is comically bad.
They wont share any data
they wont explain the rationale outside of pfs dms whined and cried because that feat negated too many enemies in there heavily houseruled subsection of rules.
Its sad when games balance around one type of play (mmorpgs sometimes balance around pvp play for example) at the wicked expense of other playstayles/types.
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Easily one of the biggest nerfs ive ever seen in paper and pencil. Like this is comically bad.
They wont share any data
they wont explain the rationale outside of pfs dms whined and cried because that feat negated too many enemies in there heavily houseruled subsection of rules.
Its sad when games balance around one type of play (mmorpgs sometimes balance around pvp play for example) at the wicked expense of other playstayles/types.
I'm not going to lie, the MMO example is the first thing this reminded me of. Negative changes to class abilities in WoW due to PvP complaints was an unending source of frustration for me a number of years ago. If all we have to go on is PFS and 'other data', it's not unreasonable for a lot of people to wonder if that mysterious alternate info set really holds any water.
I guess they listened to some guys only playing casters and calling foul every time a martial does something useful.
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They could have instead simply made the style usable while only unarmed if the various splash builds employing it were a stronger concern than the feat mechanics themselves.Yes but that wouldn't have nerfed those OP monks.
That's true. But you and I shared and witnessed the huge monk/fighter thread together, so I know that you are full aware of the level of offense the monk builds gave up for that level of defense. +32 to hit at level 20 is pretty bad compared to the offensive melees. It's a trade off.
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Perhaps we should start voting with our wallets.
Its sad when games balance around one type of play (mmorpgs sometimes balance around pvp play for example) at the wicked expense of other playstayles/types.I'm not going to lie, the MMO example is the first thing this reminded me of. Negative changes to class abilities in WoW due to PvP complaints was an unending source of frustration for me a number of years ago.
I remember that actually! I remember some people wanted different rules in PvP than in PvE. Like warrior cooldowns being different or maybe different scaling. A few MMOs I have played have implemented that and I always thought it was the best way to do things. Similarly I like PFS to have its own houserules and be clear they are houserules, but I know they like to avoid doing that.
That's true. But you and I shared and witnessed the huge monk/fighter thread together, so I know that you are full aware of the level of offense the monk builds gave up for that level of defense. +32 to hit at level 20 is pretty bad compared to the offensive melees. It's a trade off.They could have instead simply made the style usable while only unarmed if the various splash builds employing it were a stronger concern than the feat mechanics themselves.Yes but that wouldn't have nerfed those OP monks.
Apparently that level of defense was game breaking in the hands of a martial. I mean where do they get off? Thinking that they could play a DPR class with defense. Who do they think they are? Wizards with mirror image?
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Perhaps we should start voting with our wallets.
I don't think that'll get you too far... How big are your 2 copper anyway? Edit: You know what, probably don't want to know!
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Anyone mad because they actually use crane wing or have player who use crane? Or are most of us just furious at the idea the one of the few mildly useful feats out there was nerfed into the ground?My MoMS was already retired at level 12 because that particular campaign is over (because it's time to switch DMs). I had a arcane duelist/dervish dancer bard on the drawing board, but that now going to be stillborn.
This is not the first example of an over-nerf (remember Heirloom Weapon ?) and sadly I'm sure it won't be the last.
While I agree with most people that Crane Wing and Riposte are now very bad and got overnerfed, I'd like to point out that Crane Style itself is still very useful. I'd have thought that your arcane duelist/dawnflower dervish would still be quite functional just with Crane Style. I know that my Urban Barbarian/dawnfloweer dervish is. Sure, she gets hit sometimes but her AC is high enough that its not a huge deal.
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I agree with the errata, and this is coming from someone who never, ever plays full casters. I always play martials, and particularly favor monks. But seriously, the Crane feats were absurd.
An example from the field: I recently retired a 12th level monk/duelist from PFS. It was a lot of fun to play her, but honestly she was pretty out of control. She was completely invulnerable, and the Crane stuff was a big part of that. She went through the season 4 finale mod (you know, the one where you fight a runelord), on hard mode, without taking a single point of damage. That's right. Not one point of damage the whole time. And that's probably the toughest mod they've made. Also, lest you think it was because of GM inexperience, I should tell you that the game was run by a 5 star GM. And it's not like I hid in the back either. I got up in everything's face with her and contributed plenty. My friend has a Paladin/Bard that is even more beastly, and again the Crane tree made it possible, and it shouldn't be possible.
Yes, I know that casters are absurdly overpowered. Don't sink to their level, players of martial classes. Recognize a good call when you see it, and support it.
To be fair, the season 4 finale is mostly deadly because of saving throws if I remember correctly, rather than being full attacked. AoE Save or suffer or save or dies bypass crane wing entirely. So do rays and arrows.
I agree with the errata, and this is coming from someone who never, ever plays full casters.
Should try it. Good to experience ultimate arcane or divine power now and then. Also lets you know all sides of the field. Over the decade I've been everywhere it feels like.
To be fair, the season 4 finale is mostly deadly because of saving throws if I remember correctly, rather than being full attacked. AoE Save or suffer or save or dies bypass crane wing entirely. So do rays and arrows.
There's also a pretty scary save for half damage that only an inquisitor, out of all possible characters, should be able to avoid completely. But maybe that was counterspelled like when I played it.
To be fair, the season 4 finale is mostly deadly because of saving throws if I remember correctly, rather than being full attacked. AoE Save or suffer or save or dies bypass crane wing entirely. So do rays and arrows.
There's plenty of both. And I only chose that mod as an example because it's probably the hardest overall. I can practically count on both hands the number of times that character took damage in her entire career, and that's largely because she had Crane Wing from like 2nd level on.
To be fair, the season 4 finale is mostly deadly because of saving throws if I remember correctly, rather than being full attacked. AoE Save or suffer or save or dies bypass crane wing entirely. So do rays and arrows.There's also a pretty scary save for half damage that only an inquisitor, out of all possible characters, should be able to avoid completely. But maybe that was counterspelled like when I played it.
Yeesh, I had a GM once that fell in love with that spell. Its not very pretty... Metamagic made it more painful. A real killer DM would've put dazing on it though.
Anyways, the point was that crane wing doesn't do much to save you from dazing metamagic fireballs.
To be fair, the season 4 finale is mostly deadly because of saving throws if I remember correctly, rather than being full attacked. AoE Save or suffer or save or dies bypass crane wing entirely. So do rays and arrows.There's also a pretty scary save for half damage that only an inquisitor, out of all possible characters, should be able to avoid completely. But maybe that was counterspelled like when I played it.
No, I just wasn't in the area of effect at the time (if you're referring to what I think you are referring to). The battlefield for that final fight was very strange because we had a teleportation school wizard TPing various members of the party through walls at different times, chasing the runelord around.
You're right we should take the high road of being worthless trash! Our gods will see our suffering and bless us in the afterlife right Iomedae? I mean what's more important that I actually stop evil or that I'm trying totally ineffectually ... right maybe you should just call up Charlie the Cleric I'm sure his 2nd level spell that makes this encounter completely moot won't get nerfed at least.Yes, I know that casters are absurdly overpowered. Don't sink to their level, players of martial classes. Recognize a good call when you see it, and support it.
Not being effective is good role-playing
To be fair, the season 4 finale is mostly deadly because of saving throws if I remember correctly, rather than being full attacked. AoE Save or suffer or save or dies bypass crane wing entirely. So do rays and arrows.There's also a pretty scary save for half damage that only an inquisitor, out of all possible characters, should be able to avoid completely. But maybe that was counterspelled like when I played it.Yeesh, I had a GM once that fell in love with that spell. Its not very pretty... Metamagic made it more painful. A real killer DM would've put dazing on it though.
Anyways, the point was that crane wing doesn't do much to save you from dazing metamagic fireballs.
Yup, true enough. That's what my evasion's for!
You're right we should take the high road of being worthless trash! Our gods will see our suffering and bless us in the afterlife right Iomedae? I mean what's more important that I actually stop evil or that I'm trying totally ineffectually ... right maybe you should just call up Charlie the Cleric I'm sure his 2nd level spell that makes this encounter completely moot won't get nerfed at least.
I feel you, brother. But that's how taking the high road works. And honestly, you can make plenty of very effective martial characters.
I agree with the errata, and this is coming from someone who never, ever plays full casters. I always play martials, and particularly favor monks. But seriously, the Crane feats were absurd.
An example from the field: I recently retired a 12th level monk/duelist from PFS. It was a lot of fun to play her, but honestly she was pretty out of control. She was completely invulnerable, and the Crane stuff was a big part of that. She went through the season 4 finale mod (you know, the one where you fight a runelord), on hard mode, without taking a single point of damage. That's right. Not one point of damage the whole time. And that's probably the toughest mod they've made. Also, lest you think it was because of GM inexperience, I should tell you that the game was run by a 5 star GM. And it's not like I hid in the back either. I got up in everything's face with her and contributed plenty. My friend has a Paladin/Bard that is even more beastly, and again the Crane tree made it possible, and it shouldn't be possible.
Yes, I know that casters are absurdly overpowered. Don't sink to their level, players of martial classes. Recognize a good call when you see it, and support it.
Only ever see examples from PFS.
Some people occasionally pop in and say, "run APs crane wing OP" and then move on without saying any details.
Yup, true enough. That's what my evasion's for!
Evasion won't save you from failing a reflex save for dazing!... That's what your levels in a class that gives evasion and cloak of resistance are for.
You're right we should take the high road of being worthless trash! Our gods will see our suffering and bless us in the afterlife right Iomedae? I mean what's more important that I actually stop evil or that I'm trying totally ineffectually ... right maybe you should just call up Charlie the Cleric I'm sure his 2nd level spell that makes this encounter completely moot won't get nerfed at least.I feel you, brother. But that's how taking the high road works. And honestly, you can make plenty of very effective martial characters.
Umm... Your high road doesn't sound very fun. Which is usually my goal when I play a game, mind you.
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Some people occasionally pop in and say, "run APs crane wing OP" and then move on without saying any details.
Oh, oh! I can tell a story!
There once was an AP where the boss cast cloudkill, and followed with circle of death.
Everybody died, crane wing did nothing, the end!
I agree with the errata, and this is coming from someone who never, ever plays full casters. I always play martials, and particularly favor monks. But seriously, the Crane feats were absurd.
An example from the field: I recently retired a 12th level monk/duelist from PFS. It was a lot of fun to play her, but honestly she was pretty out of control. She was completely invulnerable, and the Crane stuff was a big part of that. She went through the season 4 finale mod (you know, the one where you fight a runelord), on hard mode, without taking a single point of damage. That's right. Not one point of damage the whole time. And that's probably the toughest mod they've made. Also, lest you think it was because of GM inexperience, I should tell you that the game was run by a 5 star GM. And it's not like I hid in the back either. I got up in everything's face with her and contributed plenty. My friend has a Paladin/Bard that is even more beastly, and again the Crane tree made it possible, and it shouldn't be possible.
Yes, I know that casters are absurdly overpowered. Don't sink to their level, players of martial classes. Recognize a good call when you see it, and support it.
Only ever see examples from PFS.
Some people occasionally pop in and say, "run APs crane wing OP" and then move on without saying any details.
Well, there was the one time my Aldori Swordlord cohort soloed two dragons that were each of her CR in this weird festival game arena combat from an outtake of the AP. Or the time she got into a fight with a Mythic Nightskitter. And another with a Mythic will-o-wisp that was hilarious because one attack provoked a chain of 20 attacks of opportunity. And more stories that are spoilers for the AP (these were all for encounters the GM added). I'd be happy to post a highlights reel in a spoiler block if you like! But there's literally dozens of stories, so before I take the time to write 'em up, let me know if you (and this goes for anybody not jut Marthkus) think that hearing them might potentially change your mind at least a little. If not, I'll hold back for now.
Not being effective is good role-playing
Well, like I said, I always play martials and I feel plenty effective. Sure, I'm not auto-winning encounters with walls of force or what have you. But that kind of ridiculous caster nonsense shouldn't be the bar for "being effective," if we want this game to have any degree of reason. At least it's not like the bad old days of 3.5, when a Wizard could truly be shown to be better than any other class at absolutely anything you might want to do (Grapplemancer, anyone?).
Yup, true enough. That's what my evasion's for!Evasion won't save you from failing a reflex save for dazing!... That's what your levels in a class that gives evasion and cloak of resistance are for.
True, that's a good point. I think Iakhovas may have failed one Reflex save ever, but he could have easily failed more if the dice hated me.
Post removed. If you want to argue a point, that's fine. Please be civil to one another.
Not being effective is good role-playingWell, like I said, I always play martials and I feel plenty effective. Sure, I'm not auto-winning encounters with walls of force or what have you. But that kind of ridiculous caster nonsense shouldn't be the bar for "being effective," if we want this game to have any degree of reason. At least it's not like the bad old days of 3.5, when a Wizard could truly be shown to be better than any other class at absolutely anything you might want to do (Grapplemancer, anyone?).
Effective by comparison. Always remember that unless you're a Paladin or Barbarian, everything you do can be trumped by a Wizard whose built for it.
That is hard fact unfortunately.
I'd be happy to post a highlights reel in a spoiler block if you like! But there's literally dozens of stories, so before I take the time to write 'em up, let me know if you (and...
Yeah. There are plenty of individual examples I could give, but what's the point unless you just generally doubt that I know what I'm talking about? And what other proof do you need that I do know what I am talking about, beyond the fact that I've played and GMed literally hundreds of PFS (not to mention thousands of non PFS) games over the years? The PFS group I'm in used to include Mark Moreland. Does that help you believe me? Sometimes I don't know what you guys will be satisfied with as an indicator that I know from what I'm saying. Citing the details of a million different specific Crane Style war stories would just lead to endless digression.
Well, there was the one time my Aldori Swordlord cohort soloed two dragons that were each of her CR in this weird festival game arena combat from an outtake of the AP. Or the time she got into a fight with a Mythic Nightskitter. And another with a Mythic will-o-wisp that was hilarious because one attack provoked a chain of 20 attacks of opportunity. And more stories that are spoilers for the AP (these were all for encounters the GM added). I'd be happy to post a highlights reel in a spoiler block if you like! But there's literally dozens of stories, so before I take the time to write 'em up, let me know if you (and...
Ok, I simply HAVE to know how this bolded part happened.
Sometimes I don't know what you guys will be satisfied with as an indicator that I know from what I'm saying
this is coming from someone who never, ever plays full casters.
Awkward moments.
Wall of Force may not win encounters, per se, but it can prevent you from dying before you do win.
Yarr, I know it does. Never said it didn't. Does a great job of it too!
I'd be happy to post a highlights reel in a spoiler block if you like! But there's literally dozens of stories, so before I take the time to write 'em up, let me know if you (and...Yeah. There are plenty of individual examples I could give, but what's the point unless you just generally doubt that I know what I'm talking about? And what other proof do you need that I do know what I am talking about, beyond the fact that I've played and GMed literally hundreds of PFS (not to mention thousands of non PFS) games over the years? The PFS group I'm in used to include Mark Moreland. Does that help you believe me? Sometimes I don't know what you guys will be satisfied with as an indicator that I know from what I'm saying. Citing the details of a million different specific Crane Style war stories would just lead to endless digression.
Well Crane Wing is only the crux of defensive builds anyways.
How much can we accredit to proper dispersal of threat? Were you only being hit on a 20?