the premise is a human (mainly) monk character who uses a spiked chain. He has to worship Zon-Kuthon, so he will be lawful neutral as this will probably be for PFS, unless its not legal in which case there is a homebrew I could use it for.
Str- 14
Dex- 15
Con- 12
Int- 8
Wis- 16
Cha- 12
I take a level of crusader cleric first, get weapon focus (spiked chain) as a bonus feat.
Destruction domain to get true strike, I only get 3 spells outside of domain, so i figure detect magic, guidance, and divine favor.
Levels
Cleric Bonus 1st - Weapon Focus(spiked Chain)
1st- Cornugon Shield, one other or get dual talent for str
Monk bonus 1st- Dodge
Monk 2nd (total 3rd)- Crusader Flurry
Monk bonus 3rd- Combat Reflexes
Monk 4th (total 5th)- Cornugon Stun
Monk 6th (total 7th)- Improved Trip
and not sure where to go from here, so basically should I rearrange stats, get a second feat at first or go for dual talent, what should I get for 7th level and beyond?
It all looks legal, it should work. Spiked chain is mechanically a pretty crappy weapon even with the cornugon feats, but it has style points.
That seems a perfectly legal build.
This cleric of Shelyn hesitates to advise a follower of Zon-Kuthon, but here goes anyway:
Zon-Kuthon gives the second best Variant Channel in the game: Envy. This one works even with a one level dip. You don't even need Selective Channel to make it work, with tolerant allies. You would take the variant for channeling negative energy to harm.
I thought of some other suggestions, but Shelyn would prefer I kept them to myself.
The author of the Crusader Archetype has stated that Weapon Focus is not a viable 1st level bonus feat as you still need to meet the +1 BAB.
Evidently the class and weapon based requirements only refers to "fighter levels" and not BAB.
Personally I don't buy it, and don't play it that way, but it could be an issue in PFS, which is the only reason I'm bringing it up.
Krodjin wrote: The author of the Crusader Archetype has stated that Weapon Focus is not a viable 1st level bonus feat as you still need to meet the +1 BAB.
Evidently the class and weapon based requirements only refers to "fighter levels" and not BAB.
Personally I don't buy it, and don't play it that way, but it could be an issue in PFS, which is the only reason I'm bringing it up.
Even If this is true, you can easily bypass this by taking the level in Crusader Cleric at 3. You will meet the bab requirement for weapon focus, and can immediately take Crusader's flurry with your level 3 feat.
14 Str is just to little in order to be effective with the Monk. Bear this in mind. I suggest going Dex based with Weapon Finesse and the agile property when you can afford it. Use this stat array:
STR 10
DEX 19 (+1 at 4th, 8th and 12th lvl)
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 16
CHA 7
Buy a wand of mage armor and give it to the caster of your team in order to cast it on you before every fight.
Take the martial artist archetype for access to fighter-only feats (weapon focus-specialization and greater versions).
You could build your feats like this:
1 Crusader Cleric Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain), Weapon Finesse, Cornugon Shield
2 Martial artist Dodge
3 MA Combat reflexes, Crusader's Flurry
4 MA
5 MA Cornugon Stun
6 MA
7 MA Mobility, Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain)
8 MA
9 MA Power Attack (use only when you flurry, preferably after you stun them)
10 MA
11 MA Greater Weapon Focus (spiked chain), Improved Critical (spiked chain)
12 MA
@XMorsX: How are you taking power attack with STR 10? It's not a bonus monk feat. If you meant Piranha Strike, that only works with light weapons, which spiked chain is not even though you can finesse it.
Imbicatus wrote: @XMorsX: How are you taking power attack with STR 10? It's not a bonus monk feat. If you meant Piranha Strike, that only works with light weapons, which spiked chain is not even though you can finesse it. A mistake. What feat is the best replacemnet?
Actually, I'd delay Cornugon shield until much later, go wis based, and take Channel Smite/Guided hand at first level. That way you can drop dex to a more reasonable level and add a few points back to STR to get the damage boost and qualify for power attack. It will also make your Stun DCs higher and make you more likely to succeed on wisdom checks for exploit weakness.
Revision:
STR 10
DEX 19 (+1 at 4th, 8th and 12th lvl)
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 16
CHA 7
Buy a wand of mage armor and give it to the caster of your team in order to cast it on you before every fight.
Take the martial artist archetype for access to fighter-only feats (weapon focus-specialization and greater versions).
You could build your feats like this:
1 Crusader Cleric Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain), Weapon Finesse, Cornugon Shield
2 Martial artist Dodge
3 MA Combat reflexes, Crusader's Flurry
4 MA
5 MA Cornugon Stun
6 MA
7 MA Mobility, Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain)
8 MA
9 MA Greater Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
10 MA
11 MA Pin Down, Improved Critical (spiked chain)
12 MA
I moved greater weapon focus at 9th lvl, as you can qualify faster than I thought, and I put Pin Down at 11th lvl, an excellent choice for every PC that relies on full-attacks in order to deal damage.
Imbicatus wrote: Actually, I'd delay Cornugon shield until much later, go wis based, and take Channel Smite/Guided hand at first level. That way you can drop dex to a more reasonable level and add a few points back to STR to get the damage boost and qualify for power attack. It will also make your Stun DCs higher and make you more likely to succeed on wisdom checks for exploit weakness. My issue is that with this approach you make yourself reliant to a lot of feats just to get going. You need two feats to funchion properly (channel smite and guided hand) and crusaders flurry in order to be able to flurry with spiked chain and be effective, as well as cornugon stun. It is tough to balance all of them into the same build if you do not start at a higher lvl. I will give it a try though.
XMorsX wrote: Imbicatus wrote: Actually, I'd delay Cornugon shield until much later, go wis based, and take Channel Smite/Guided hand at first level. That way you can drop dex to a more reasonable level and add a few points back to STR to get the damage boost and qualify for power attack. It will also make your Stun DCs higher and make you more likely to succeed on wisdom checks for exploit weakness. My issue is that with this approach you make yourself reliant to a lot of feats just to get going. You need two feats to funchion properly (channel smite and guided hand) and crusaders flurry in order to be able to flurry with spiked chain and be effective, as well as cornugon stun. It is tough to balance all of them into the same build if you do not start at a higher lvl. I will give it a try though. EDIT: Actually it is not that bad. Just ditch cornugon shield entirely. At first lvl you can have both channel smite and guided hand.
What about a stat array of
STR 14
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 19 (+1 at 4th , 8th and 12th lvl)
CHA 7
My issue now is that I just like so much weapon spec, greater weapon focus and pin down that I do not want to change any of them. Maybe, now that Str is decent, I should change Mobility with Improved Trip for locking-down the enemy and swap power attack with pin down.
1 Crusader Cleric Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain), Weapon Finesse, Cornugon Shield
2 Martial artist Dodge
3 MA Combat reflexes, Crusader's Flurry
4 MA
5 MA Power Attack
6 MA
7 MA Improved Trip, Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain)
8 MA
9 MA Greater Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
10 MA
11 MA Pin Down, Medusas' Wrath
12 MA
Medusas' Wrath is better than improved critical, cornugon stun is out because it can be substituted with the ki weapon enchantment.
Also, if you have access to the ACG playtest, Warpriest is probably a better choice than Crusader Cleric. You get the same free Weapon Focus, levels in Warpriest count as fighter for feats, and you would have +1 bab with the Spiked chain. Of cource, you couldn't go Wisdom based then, because warpriests don't get channel energy until 4th level.
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IMO the best Cleric/Monks are the ones who have less levels of Monk. Preferably just 0 (just get Monk Robes), 1 or 2.
Slight problem. Martial artists don't get ki. and honestly I'd rather not dump 2 stats.
Personally, I find Ki to be over-rated. I use my points on a hungry ghost or a drunken master because they are easy to recover, but I almost never use them on other monks. Martial Artists gain more than they lose for giving up ki imo.
Hmmm... I'd go with
Str 17 (15 + 2 racial bonus)Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 8
Raise Str at 4th level, Wis at 8th and whatever you want at 12th level... I don't think PFS games go any higher than that...
I forgot to change the 1st lvl feats. Here you go:
STR 14
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 19 (+1 at 4th , 8th and 12th lvl)
CHA 7
My issue now is that I just like so much weapon spec, greater weapon focus and pin down that I do not want to change any of them. Maybe, now that Str is decent, I should change Mobility with Improved Trip for locking-down the enemy and swap power attack with pin down.
1 Crusader Cleric Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain), Channel Smite, Guided Hand
2 Martial artist Dodge
3 MA Combat reflexes, Crusader's Flurry
4 MA
5 MA Power Attack
6 MA
7 MA Improved Trip, Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain)
8 MA
9 MA Greater Weapon Focus (spiked chain)
10 MA
11 MA Pin Down, Medusas' Wrath
12 MA
It can be done without being martial artist too, but the benefits are just too many. Weapon spec, greater weapon focus, pin down are all excellent feats that otherwise you do not have access to. Exploit weakness is a fantastic ability in order to penetrate DR and with a Wis build it is very likely to succeed every time. Also, this in combination with greater weapon focus help aleviate the main monk problem, the low attack bonus.
If you were worshipping a good god, I could see using a bronze gong and taking advantage of your massive ki pool. But as it is, your ki is going to be limited and much less of a help than all the martial artist abilities you get instead.
I do not like to dump two stats either. I stand by this decision however, all the 14s are equally important for the effectiveness of the build, and of course the 19 in Wisdom is absolutely vital.
XMorsX wrote: I do not like to dump two stats either. I stand by this decision however, all the 14s are equally important for the effectiveness of the build, and of course the 19 in Wisdom is absolutely vital. A 17 in Wisdom would be nearly as good, and would allow an 8 and 10 instead of 7 and 7. 10 Int would be very nice for the additional skill points that monks get.
Majuba wrote: XMorsX wrote: I do not like to dump two stats either. I stand by this decision however, all the 14s are equally important for the effectiveness of the build, and of course the 19 in Wisdom is absolutely vital. A 17 in Wisdom would be nearly as good, and would allow an 8 and 10 instead of 7 and 7. 10 Int would be very nice for the additional skill points that monks get. You will be 1 DC behind on every stunning fist, exploit wisdom check and attack roll you do for the rest of your carrer. I guess it could do it for someone desperately wanting more skill points, but in the end it is more efficient IMO to just live with two skill points less. You are a human too, so this partially makes up for the low Int too.
XMorsX wrote: You will be 1 DC behind on every stunning fist, exploit wisdom check and attack roll you do for the rest of your carrer. I guess it could do it for someone desperately wanting more skill points, but in the end it is more efficient IMO to just live with two skill points less. You are a human too, so this partially makes up for the low Int too. I'd rather have 66% more skills... it's a choice.
Majuba wrote: XMorsX wrote: You will be 1 DC behind on every stunning fist, exploit wisdom check and attack roll you do for the rest of your carrer. I guess it could do it for someone desperately wanting more skill points, but in the end it is more efficient IMO to just live with two skill points less. You are a human too, so this partially makes up for the low Int too. I'd rather have 66% more skills... it's a choice. It is 3 vs 5 skill points. Less than 50%.
I can see keeping Perception and Acrobatics maxed, one point in climb and swim and the rest in Stealth. The only useful thing that you lose is Sense Motive, which does not worth the smaller Wisdom score.
Everything is a choice, my point was that the +1 Wisdom modifier is more useful than two skill points more per lvl. Gimping intentionally a combat class in what it does best (combat) is hardly an optimised or efficient solution.
XMorsX wrote: Majuba wrote: I'd rather have 66% more skills... it's a choice. It is 3 vs 5 skill points. Less than 50%. Might want to check your math there: 66% (technically, should be rounded to 67%, but, eh) of 3 is 2. 3+2=5. 5 is 166% of 3, aka 66% more.
Repose domain power+Domain Strike+Medusa Wrath.
That's all.
Tholomyes wrote: XMorsX wrote: Majuba wrote: I'd rather have 66% more skills... it's a choice. It is 3 vs 5 skill points. Less than 50%. Might want to check your math there: 66% (technically, should be rounded to 67%, but, eh) of 3 is 2. 3+2=5. 5 is 166% of 3, aka 66% more. Actually you are right. My bad. Anyway, my point stands.
LoneKnave wrote: Repose domain power+Domain Strike+Medusa Wrath.
That's all.
Great combination indeed. Unfortunately Zon-Kuthon does not have the Repose domain.
EDIT: Also Medusa's Wrath does not work with weapon attacks. This is a shame, it means that we are bavck at Improved Critical (spiked chain) as our 11th lvl bonus feat.
Is 14 con because the monk is relatively squishy and better fort save or is there something else? I was considering dropping it to 12 or 13 but not sure.
what about
str- 14
dex- 14
con- 14
int- 9
wis- 18
cha- 7
I dont like the idea of dumping both to 7 but slight dumping I can handle.
Is the difference between 18 and 19 great enough to dump down to a 7 in int?
zauriel56 wrote: Is 14 con because the monk is relatively squishy and better fort save or is there something else? I was considering dropping it to 12 or 13 but not sure.
what about
str- 14
dex- 14
con- 14
int- 9
wis- 18
cha- 7
I dont like the idea of dumping both to 7 but slight dumping I can handle.
Is the difference between 18 and 19 great enough to dump down to a 7 in int?
From the 4th lvl and onwards you will have -1 Wisdom modifier. The fact that this means -1 on attack rolls, on exploit weakness checks and on stunning fist DC for the rest of your carrer means that is worth more than +1 skill point per lvl.
You still have a low Int, so you will roleplay a poor-minded but wise fellow anyway.
With three skill points per lvl (7 Int with Human bonus) you can still have Perseption and Acrobatics maxed and Stealth close to maxed.
For the above reasons I suggest that you keep your Int at 7 and your Wisdom at 19. That being said, 18 Wisdom is not bad if you have to have a higher Int.
14 Con is fine. Monks are squishy only at lower lvls, especially if they are Str based. At 2nd lvl you will have 17 AC (also 17 touch AC), 21 with Mage Armor and you will have great saves.. Afer the few lvls your great defences will make up for your low life.
I'm a little disappointed that channel smite is a dead feat, the save will only be an 8 will. Also how can I increase caster level for my cleric spells? I know there is magical knack but is there any other way?
It's really something you will never use after you get to 4th level as a monk. Channel Smite is a swift action and Exploit Weakness is a much better use of your swift action. If you go with a ki based monk, you still have better things to do with your swift action, because any ki use will be one.
So it looks like I will be doing this in a homebrew campaign, starting at 14th level. Any recommendations for magic items? I was thinking a blood crystal +2 wounding Spiked Chain.
zauriel56 wrote: So it looks like I will be doing this in a homebrew campaign, starting at 14th level. Any recommendations for magic items? I was thinking a blood crystal +2 wounding Spiked Chain. Generally speaking, your to-hit is more important than your damage, so enchantment bonuses are higher in priority.
I prefer an Imprevious Adamantine weapon, mainly for the reliability it provides.
If you followed my advice and did not take cornugon stun in favor of better feats, the a +3 ki focus Spiked Chain is probably the best choice. Otherwise, a +4 Spiked Chain is the suggested alternative.
Of course, if you like stacking bleeding effects then go ahead. However this way your Power Attack is going to suffer more, and many enemies can easily overcome bleeding or are just immune to it.
well the bleed stuff was more thematic, as a monk of Zon-Kuthon it just seemed to fit. But other than the spiked chain i figure a ring of protection and some bracers of armor, belt of dex and con, headband of wisdom, but I didn't know if there was anything else that was a "Must Have" and what level of each I should get.
And since its homebrew I got to roll stats and got
Str- 14
Dex- 16
Con- 15 (+1 level bonus) 16
Int-14
Wis- 18 (+2 racial) (+2 level bonus) 22
Cha- 14
The feats I took were
Channel Smite
Guided Hand
Combat Reflexes
Cornugon Stun - so I can stun with my weapon
Crusader's Flurry
Dodge
Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical all Spiked chain
Improved Trip
Improved Disarm
Pin Down
Power attack
I didnt take medusa's wrath because I figure I ll be using my chain more than my unarmed strike, and there doesnt seem to be a way to use medusa's wrath with my spiked chain, if there is and i didnt see it please tell me.
for traits I was thinking pain is pleasure for a +1 to fort and will saves when under half health and not sure about the other.
Your feat choices are fine, as are your stats. Well done!
You are right about medusa's wrath.
Two good traits to consider are Defensive strategist (uncanny dodge for free) and Second Chance (one save reroll per day) (but Dangerously curious is better than second chance of you raise UMD, which you should).
Take ioun stones: pale green and cracked pale green
Take a bane baldric.
Grab boots of haste.
Bracers of armor are only good with a +5 or more, otherwise just buy a wand of mage armor and have a party caster cast it on you before going to explore.
The same goes for a wand of enlarge person.
Actually you should raise UMD, as you have both spare skill poins and a pretty high charisma. In this case, take Defensive Strategist and Dangerously Curious (UMD as a class skill) as your traits.
Do not forget amulet of natural armor too.
A handy haversack is a nice non-combat addition.
If you have the money, a jingasa of the fortunate soldier is a good choice.
Is it standard WPL?
yes standard WPL, so 180,000 I believe.
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