Druids Log: Animal companions

[Mojorat]

DirkSJ wrote:

Mojorat wrote:

Basically, i assumed with no feat for Light armor, regardless of the reduction of the ACP that the animal would not want to wear the armor.

It probably doesn't but when you put the armor on him you could do a push check to tell him to accept the armor and not worry about it. DC 25 is not terribly hard for an animal companion. And anything an animal is physically capable of doing can be pushed.

Many dogs wear clothes and are fine with it. There's even that lovely overly-priced cat armor (leather plates) I've seen for sale. A few push checks when you equip them and they should be good. With 0 armor penalty it's no more restrictive than a set of silken ceremonial robes or a plain white t-shirt.

All of those animals have training either conditioning in the case of clothes. Or training for armour.

So what people are saying is there is non codified training (not represented in the rules) to jusify the wearing of armor with 0 acp.

But my appologies I kind of derailed an interesting thread with something I had thought about. It basically appears that. People view conditioning to wear the armor and the feat for it as seperate. Given there is no rule covering it.

Just to clarify before I boe out this wasn't a huge deal for me just something I'd had sitting in the back of my mijd.

[DirkSJ]

Tangent continued!:

The comparison done that way looks bad, but really the delta is this:
Spend 4k, lose 1 AC, save 2 feats.

One of those feats can be used to get Dodge or Imp Nat Armor (can be taken multiple times) which recovers the AC. So really we are saying 4k to save 1 feat.

Kikko+use one saved feat: 4k-6AC, 5k-7AC, 8k-8AC
BP: 200-6AC, 1k-7AC, 4k-8AC

If someone said to me there was an item for 4k that would give me another feat I would buy that item so fast every shopkeeper within 5 miles' head would spin.

Alternately, use the other saved feat ALSO for armor!
Kikko+both feats armor: 4k-7AC, 5k-8AC, 8k-9AC, 13k-10AC
BP: (200 for 6 AC), 1k-7AC, 4k-8AC, 9k-9AC, 16k-10AC

At +2 they are about even and once you get to a +3 BP you are actually paying more for the BP for the same armor rating.

[DirkSJ]

Mojorat wrote:

But my appologies I kind of derailed an interesting thread with something I had thought about. It basically appears that. People view conditioning to wear the armor and the feat for it as seperate. Given there is no rule covering it.

It's worth discussing in a super-Animal-Companion thread :).

Doing 0 ACP tricks is very common even outside of companions though. A lot of casters wear a mithril buckler that they don't know how to use or a haramaki/silken ceremonial robes enchanted with Fortification.

Paizo probably should have changed the default 3.5 rules a bit and said: "If you are not proficient with a given type of armor/shield the min ACP is always 1". Or something.

[Cao Phen]

I know that this is a bump to a thread that died out, but I was wondering if anyone can finalize my starting statistics for a Horse Animal Compaion. This is for a Samurai character I am creating.

I understand that the horse, though combat trained, still have its hooves as a secondary attack.

As for Level 1 stats, is this correct?

Horse wrote:

STR - 16
DEX - 13
CON - 15
INT - 2
WIS - 12
CHA - 6

HP - 13 (2d8+4)

AC - 14 (10 + 4 Natural + 1 DEX - 1 Size)
Touch - 10 (10 + 1 DEX - 1 Size)
Flat - 13 (10 + 4 Natural - 1 Size)

F/R/W - 5/4/1

CMB - 5 (1 BAB + 3 STR + 1 Size)
CMD - 16 (10 + 1 BAB + 3 STR + 1 DEX + 1 Size)

Attacks:

Bite:
Attack - 3 (1 BAB + 3 STR - 1 Size)
Damage - 1d4+3

2 Hooves:
Attack - -2 (1 BAB + 3 STR - 1 Size - 5 Secondary)
Damage - 1d6+1

or

2 Hooves - 3 (1 BAB + 3 STR - 1 Size)
Damage - 1d6+3

[Nefreet]

If your horse is Combat Trained, it no longer treats its Hooves as Secondary Attacks.

[Flutter]

I believe nefreet's correct. Its a little odd. The bestiary wasn't finalized when they made the players handbook.

Hooves aren't normally a secondary attack

They are a secondary attack for [bestiary horses] unless they're combat trained because of the docile special quality of the bestiary horse.

They are secondary attacks for [animal companion horse] because it says so. At 4th level they get a quasai defined combat trained ability that references handle animal that makes it not secondary.

I don't think you have to go too far out on the limb to say that [animal companion horses] effectively have the docile special quality , and getting combat training will get rid of the secondary attacks.

[Nefreet]

Hooves are normally a secondary attack, but I've always gone off of the Bestiary entry that states a Horse with Combat Training upgrades their Hooves to primary attacks.

[Cao Phen]

For Medium Cavaliers and Samurai, they both start out with either a Combat-Trained Horse or a Camel (yay Ranged Touch Sickened attack).

So would this mean that my horse will have a Primary Bite and 2 Primary Hooves because it is combat trained at Level 1?

[Nefreet]

Indeed. Or at least, that's how I (and most ppl I've encountered) view it.

[Flutter]

As far as I can see yes. Just be sure to use your bonus trick on getting attack a second time, or he;ll say "hell no" to attacking icky nasty monsters.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Might as well keep this going.

As far as I can tell, your little buddy can carry their Ioun stone around in a pathfinder, for some cheap extra bonuses:
+2 Dex and Improved Unarmed Strike (to get Grapple feats) for 8k.
+1 AC and +2 CMB/CMD for 5k.
No need for food and Protection from Evil Domination for 5k.
etc.

I'll just throw in here that I *really* wish we could get some clear rules on determining AC reach. It's not clear what principles the Ape ruling is based on. :( I'd like to have somethign to point to when claiming my T Rex mount has 10' reach.

[Nefreet]

"Tall" creatures, such as Apes and the T-Rex, have reach equal to the space they take up.

"Long" creatures, such as Wolves and Tigers, have reach equal to the space they take up, until they reach Large size, at which point their reach equals the space they take up - 5.

Snakes are apparently considered "tall", given the entry for the Emperor Cobra.

When in doubt, go off of what the Bestiary lists.

EDIT: HERE is a chart that might help you.

[Cao Phen]

...but a T-rex has tiny arms. How can they reach? =)

As for an animal companion using magical items, it is in the FAQ:

Here

[DesolateHarmony]

Doesn't this chart help with animal companion reach?

[Markov Spiked Chain]

The problem is Tall vs Long isn't spelled out anywhere. I think most people are OK with saying TRex, Axe Beak, and Allosaurus are "tall" because they're bipeds and the Bestiary lines up. Although I'd still prefer something more official.

But there are at least a couple of weird cases:

Anklyosaurus is a quadruped with 15' size 15' reach.

Same with Stegosaurus.

Diplodocus is a quadruped with 30' size and 60'(!!!) reach.

I'd *really* like to know if I can have a 20' reach Diplodocus. :)

[Nefreet]

Elasmosaurus, IIRC, also has a higher reach with its bite.

So, obviously there's a missing 3rd category: Extra Long.

[Flutter]

This may be one case where you should look to the base animal for guidance.

[FLite]

I think the problem is that tall vs long is a 3.5 thing. When they went from 3.5 to PFS, they got rid of the tall vs long designation, but they kept the various creatures reaches...

So yeah, I would look at whatever the base animal has and give them that.

[nosig]

FLite wrote:

I think the problem is that tall vs long is a 3.5 thing. When they went from 3.5 to PFS, they got rid of the tall vs long designation, but they kept the various creatures reaches...

So yeah, I would look at whatever the base animal has and give them that.

part of it was also in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5.

3.0 horses were 5' x 10' for example, with a 5' reach.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Is the consensus that Diplodocus AC should have 20' reach then?
(and Stego and Anklyo have 10')

I'm just wary of showing up to a table with a Diplodocus AC and having to take time to discuss it with the GM each time.

[Nefreet]

You should always discuss uncommon class options with your GM anyways.

[666bender]

Drake Brimstone wrote:

Drat, while at first glance Bridle of Tricks and War Saddle look like good choices for my Giant Wasp, it is neither an Animal nor a Magical Beast. Anyone know of a way a Small sized race can make their Animal Companion a Magical Beast? (Unfortunately no small sized Aasimars.)

Dot

[666bender]

Drake Brimstone wrote:

Drat, while at first glance Bridle of Tricks and War Saddle look like good choices for my Giant Wasp, it is neither an Animal nor a Magical Beast. Anyone know of a way a Small sized race can make their Animal Companion a Magical Beast? (Unfortunately no small sized Aasimars.)

[Derwalt]

This thread is awesome :)

...and here's hoping for it to be updated with tips and tricks for the new Hunter base class? :)

[Hmm]

Flutter, thanks for getting my a card in the union! Is there anyway you could turn these posts into a guide that can be linked to from the advice column? This thread is better than anything I found in the Guide to Class Guides.

Thanks for all your hard work!

Hmm

[Cao Phen]

Derwalt wrote:

This thread is awesome :)

...and here's hoping for it to be updated with tips and tricks for the new Hunter base class? :)

Tip for a Hunter. Kill your pet.

When your pet is dead, you get the Animal Aspect duration (indefinite duration) similar to the pet. You can still use the Hunter version (Min per Level) on a different Aspect.

This means (if you want) a permanent Ability boost to Str, Dex, or Con while using the belt for another stat. This aspect increases at Level 8 to +4, so you save a bunch of gold for a "free stat belt".

[Hmm]

Flutter wrote:

Part VII: Feral fashion.

Druids local 704 Highly frowns on sending your companions into combat without regard to their safety tap tap taps pointy stick

Leather Armor Barding: Cheap Toile, but better than nothing for the adventurer on a budget. Costs a mere 20 gp for medium companions for 40 GP for large ones.

Flutter --

Two questions. Does leather armor stack with mage armor? And what book is leather barding from? I want to know what book I need to buy in order to get leather barding for my tiger, Pumpkin.

Hmm

[Darrell Impey UK]

They wouldn't stack, as both provide an armour bonus. Though mage armour is effective against incorporal attacks whilst physical armour (without ghost touch) isn't.

[Flutter]

Barding is from the core rule book.

Barding:

Medium Creature and Large Creature: Barding is a type of armor that covers the head, neck, chest, body, and possibly legs of a horse or other mount. Barding made of medium or heavy armor provides better protection than light barding, but at the expense of speed. Barding can be made of any of the armor types found on Table: Armor and Shields

Linky under mounts and related gear.

Leather armor and mage armor are both armor bonuses, so they won't stack they just overlap. Mage armor is cheap, easy to use and works against ghosts and spirits, but at higher levels enchanted mithral chain will give a better AC.

You should probably pick up masterwork studded leather armor for 200 gp after your first or second adventure, and then wait until pumpkins growth spurt at 7th level to decide if one of your spells going to mage armor is enough or you want to go for something more substantial.(Or be paranoid and overlap them, enchanted armor for spears and mage armor for the shadows)

[Nefreet]

Hmm wrote:

what book is leather barding from?

The Core Rulebook.

"Barding" is the term used to describe armor fitted for animals. Medium-sized Barding costs twice what Humanoid armor would (so, 20gp for Medium-sized Leather Barding) and Large-sized Barding costs four times as much (so, 40gp for Large-sized Leather Barding).

The chart for figuring out prices for different sizes is in the Equipment Chapter.

Edit: apparently that horse took levels in Ninja >.>

[Damanta]

Biggest trick for the hunter animal companions will be the availability of the skirmisher (ranger archetype) tricks. This will fall a bit into the GM fiat of how many of these tricks the companion can use on one attack, but still.

Teach it

Rattling Strike:

Rattling Strike (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, the target is shaken for 1d4 rounds.

Tangling Attack:

Tangling Attack (Ex): The Ranger can use this attack as a free action when he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target is entangled for 1 round.

Upending Strike:

Upending Strike (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as a free action just before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, he may make a free trip combat maneuver against the target.

Call it attack pattern alpha to get it to apply those three tricks upon an attack with a DC10 handle animal check and watch the hilarity ensue.

Will require some help to actually hit probably (outflank at level 2, buffs from party members etc).

[Victor Zajic]

Nefreet wrote:

Hooves are normally a secondary attack, but I've always gone off of the Bestiary entry that states a Horse with Combat Training upgrades their Hooves to primary attacks.

I don't understand why you think what's printed in the beastiary entry for horses has anything to do with what abilities an animal companion horse gets. Does a lion animal companion get a stealth bonus in tall grasses?

The animal companion entry for horses says the hoof attacks are secondary attacks. That means they are secondary attacks, end of story.

Unless you're playing in a home game with a reasonable GM and he house-rules it otherwise.

[Nefreet]

Indeed.

[Victor Zajic]

If it's any consolation, I think that it's dumb. But thems the rules.

[Hmm]

Flutter wrote:

Barding is from the core rule book.

** spoiler omitted ** Linky under mounts and related gear.

Leather armor and mage armor are both armor bonuses, so they won't stack they just overlap. Mage armor is cheap, easy to use and works against ghosts and spirits, but at higher levels enchanted mithral chain will give a better AC.

You should probably pick up masterwork studded leather armor for 200 gp after your first or second adventure, and then wait until pumpkins growth spurt at 7th level to decide if one of your spells going to mage armor is enough or you want to go for something more substantial.(Or be paranoid and overlap them, enchanted armor for spears and mage armor for the shadows)

I have the Mage Armor Spell, but I'm first level. I'm paranoid that I won't have it when Pumpkin needs it. So... I am thinking of overlapping the two. Do I need an armor feat for Pumpkin for the light barding?

Also, I am taking Eye for Talent in lieu of my bonus feat. If I raise Pumpkin's IQ to 4, she gets 13 tricks to start, correct? Are there any additional skill points?

Hmm

[David Bowles]

If the barding has an armor check of "0", then you don't need any feats for the animal. Otherwise, you are looking at feats to prevent attack roll penalties. Which would be fine with me as a GM, honestly.

"If it's any consolation, I think that it's dumb. But thems the rules."

I think it's dumb as well, but I'll take any limitation on any animal companion I can get.

[mswbear]

keerawa wrote:

Flutter wrote:

Animals Act on their own initiative If the animal wins initiative it will delay and await instructions. Personally I would always delay to act in synch with my animal companion, just so that your orders make sense when the animal gets to perform them.

In 13 levels with a very active animal companion, I NEVER had a GM in PFS run combat that way. I would check, just in case, and be told that they'd rather I just use my own initiative.

Our GMs always run it this way

[David Bowles]

Depends on how many are at the table, but I almost always have animals on their own initiative. They do have their own initiative stat, after all, and there is no language anywhere to suggest that any entity in PFS gets to use another entity's initiative roll.

[FLite]

I don't bother the GM with dual initiatives anymore. I just roll two dice and take the lower (adjusted for each initiative) and tell the GM that number.

[Hmm]

Also... If Pumpkin starts with 13 tricks, what tricks do you recommend? I have Animal Archive.

Hmm

[Flutter]

Hmm wrote:

Also... If Pumpkin starts with 13 tricks, what tricks do you recommend? I have Animal Archive.

Hmm

I take it you're human with eye for talent and put it towards pumpkins int?

Attack
Attack
Come
Down
Heel
Defend
Guard
Seek
Fetch
Combat manuever: trip
Combat manuever: grapple
Combat manuver: disarm
Serve
Sneak

The combat manuvers should be in vogue this season. There are a lot of critters like robots with hardness you can't get through, so you take the Aoo, hope they miss, and sit on them so your fighter with the adamantine greatsword can pry them open like a tin can.

[Hmm]

Flutter wrote:

Hmm wrote:

Also... If Pumpkin starts with 13 tricks, what tricks do you recommend? I have Animal Archive.

Hmm

I take it you're human with eye for talent and put it towards pumpkins int?

Attack
Attack
Come
Down
Heel
Defend
Guard
Seek
Fetch
Combat manuever: trip
Combat manuever: grapple
Combat manuver: disarm
Serve
Sneak

The combat manuvers should be in vogue this season. There are a lot of critters like robots with hardness you can't get through, so you take the Aoo, hope they miss, and sit on them so your fighter with the adamantine greatsword can pry them open like a tin can.

Yep, human with Eye for Talent. I'm plopping two feats and a trait into making my work with Pumpkin better!

Serve was something I was definitely looking at, since it would allow my partner's character (we're playing a husband / wife pair) to make requests of Pumpkin too.

What is Aoo? Forgive my ignorance. I'm new, but trying to catch up as fast as I can.

Hmm

PS Thank you for being awesome, Flutter!

[Hmm]

I noticed flank was on the IQ 2 list, but not IQ 4? Is there a particular reason?

Hmm

[Wolfspirit]

Hmm wrote:

What is Aoo? Forgive my ignorance.

Attack of Opportunity. Without feats or special abilities, those combat maneuvers provoke an attack of opportunity when used.

[Flutter]

AoO = attack of opportunity. As pumpkin is neither using his natural instincts to sink his teeth into something and hold onto it (the grab ability) or spent time in a tien monestary (the improved grapple feat) when he tries to grab, disarm or trip someone he leaves himself open to attack. During that time the opponent gets a free attack on pumpkin. If the attack hits, the amount of damage counts as a penalty against the combat maneuver check (and at higher levels will almost inevitably cause it to fail)

[David Bowles]

Flutter wrote:

AoO = attack of opportunity. As pumpkin is neither using his natural instincts to sink his teeth into something and hold onto it (the grab ability) or spent time in a tien monestary (the improved grapple feat) when he tries to grab, disarm or trip someone he leaves himself open to attack. During that time the opponent gets a free attack on pumpkin. If the attack hits, the amount of damage counts as a penalty against the combat maneuver check (and at higher levels will almost inevitably cause it to fail)

Assuming the NPC can mathematically hit Pumpkin. Which is not a guarantee the way PFS rolls.

[Flutter]

D;oh, I flunked flank. Replace guard with flank. Your melee will thank you by getting pumpkin out of the charge lane.

[Hmm]

David Bowles wrote:

I'll take any limitation on any animal companion I can get.

David --

I would love your advice as a GM who sometimes gets frustrated by Animal Companions. Are there etiquette things that I can do as a player to make my furry friend more welcome to the GMs that I play with?

One of the things that my friend Bret and I hope to do is play a paired husband / wife team that provides things that would be welcome in any gaming group. I'm going human sylvan sorcerer, but I am hoping that Pumpkin will be more interesting than a furry clawed death machine. That is part of the reason that I am going to invest in the higher intelligence.

My friend Bret will be a battle cleric -- primarily a fighter but with the ability to provide some healing and divine spell support.

We're hoping to provide a team that GMs and players would welcome into the sort of random groups that you find in PFS play. As this will be my very first PFS character, I don't want to step on toes. I'd like everyone to have fun.

What can I do to facilitate that?

Hmm

[Hmm]

Flutter wrote:

D'oh, I flunked flank. Replace guard with flank. Your melee will thank you by getting pumpkin out of the charge lane.

Okay, thank you!

Hmm

[David Bowles]

I'm not going to ask players to self-nerf. I just really wish that Paizo or someone had thought out the effects of pets in a society where the CR of each encounter is hard coded. The pets are just so dominant; ESPECIALLY when the other PCs are of average optimization (my PCs) or lower.

I focus more on animal companions because they have the very powerful mechanic of stacking barding on top of inherent natural armor class. They often also have access to multiple natural attacks backed up by a high STR score as well as pounce.

An animal companion of equal optimization level can frequently out damage a martial class by taking advantage of the move/full attack dynamic that pounce brings. This doesn't even take into account what the pet OWNER is doing. It's almost like having 2 PCs, neither of which are sufficiently depowered to account for there being two of them.

At the same time, I don't like asking players to not play their PCs. I really feel like Paizo has put us in a weird situation regarding pets in society play. It's not the players' fault so I'm not going to take it out on them in any way. And it's not the GM's fault.

I don't single any player out in my games. In fact, intelligent NPCs often STOP attacking animal companions in my games when they realize they have practically no chance of hitting them. Of course, frequently by the time they figure this out, it's too late and the combat is essentially over because they have wasted resources on a pet they are never going to be able to stop no matter what they did. And even if they do KO the pet, that's resources that weren't used on a real PC. It's a lose/lose/lose for the NPCs.

As a GM I always keep in mind that I'm getting my 1XP/2PP and table credit no matter what happens. I also didn't write the scenario. I don't take things personally at all. I've just had my PCs invalidated by pets and have GMed tables where some players had nothing to do because Fluffy got there first and full-attacked. It makes the session kinda meh.