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@OP: Does your group already have a Bard? If not, consider the Evangelist archetype. You are the best buffer in the game, can arguably be the best summoner in the game, and Inspire Courage further raises your already solid martial skills. Here's what Magda did in combat at low level.
What Malag said about PFS play and reach clerics is true, especially at lower levels. You often don't know the other players, and they don't know you, so cooperation can be hard to find. They will often take short-sighted actions, such as rushing foes when they should not, that prevent your AoOs. I wrote this post to explain this problem, and how I solved it. Beyond about 5th level I found that most PFS players understand reach tactics and understand the tactical benefit of sometimes letting the foe come to you. Above about 5th level in PFS the quality of play goes way up, and this problem mostly goes away.
Regarding buffs, I'll quote
If combat has already started no buff is worth giving up a full round of attacks for.
Do your buffs before combat begins. Here are some exceptions. An Evangelist reach cleric in Clericzilla mode is a primary martial damage dealer: you inflict as much martial damage as a raging Barbarian. Don't waste your actions doing small things.
Yes, we have a bard, who provides a +2 to our battles (she's a higher level than me, I died a while back)
As for the point buy, it's a 25. So there's a decent amount of wiggle room, to the point where I'm considering dropping my strength by 2 to boost my Dex, giving me a 4th AoO and a 20 AC. Will still be decently strong, just have a +3 strength instead of 4. Which Im still unsure about.
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There is also several combat based cleric archetypes which you should probably check out.
Most of time, melee clerics ditch Charisma in favor of other statistics and/or remove channeling all together. It provides little benefit for them.
Did you consider playing another class such as inquisitor? He is similar to cleric in many aspects. It might remove the problem with channeling since you semi-force other players to accept your class.
Malag
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With a 25 point build he has enough wiggle room to be good at casting, melee, and channeling. Since he won't be going Evangelist he'll have full channeling. It saves a lot on healing costs, and is great when the party needs to recover from an AOE hit.
He'll rarely get enough AoOs to use all 4 at normal size. When Enlarge Person is going it's totally different. The longer reach gives you a lot more AoO opportunities, but you often miss out on them because of the reduced DEX. Then the higher DEX will be great. With 14 DEX there were a lot of times when Magda was Enlarged, and thus down to only 2 AoOs, and she missed out on the 3rd AoO.
Still debating about that in terms of the strength and Dex bit, as I can't take Fate's Favored, not in the books being allowed.
Also, Magda, you said in your other build you only have 2 Skill points per level. Unless you did something I'm missing, you should be receiving 3. 2+Int and 1 every level for being a human.
Also, could still use advice as to what to spend my gold on.
Well, if you DO have a character that channels, phylactery of positive energy is usually worth it. Outside of that- the typical stuff any other martial character would buy.
This is my first game of pathfinder, and I've mostly been playing a channel Cleric so far. I don't know what a Martial character WOULD buy lol. Also, Phylactery is too expensive lol.
And since this came up in a different conversation-Improved Initiative, or Combat Casting? I feel like moving back 10 ft then casting is something that will happen a lot-and doing so provokes an attack of opportunity, right?
I 5 foot back, he's just gonna 5 foot up. No AoO. But if I ten foot back and cast, he gets an AoO. Thus why I might want combat casting.
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And if you move back, you afford him an AoO... it cuts both ways as I mentioned earlier in this thread, reach is great until the person eats an AoO and is in your grill. I am going on the assumption that you will be fighting from the second rank with your reach weapon and not standing directly on the front lines.
Generally your buffs should be cast early before enemies are in range, emergency heals should be done from behind friends when possible, same with debuffs. Then you have your summons, but they are a full round anyway, so chances are damage will occur during the casting that is a bigger problem if you don't already have space or a screen, and the concentration check for that is not aided by combat casting anyway. Also, while Combat Casting is helpful at low levels, as you get higher up it becomes far less useful.
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@OP - Here is an example of reach tactics. The reach cleric who learns to apply these techniques will inflict more damage and will take less damage. This is another reason why a reach cleric does not need Combat Casting. I've played through about 20 levels of assorted reach clerics, and not once would Combat Casting have been even slightly helpful.
Hello everyone, I have always been extremely curious about the reach cleric concept and logic behind the mechanics, so I've got a couple of questions that I hope are not too basic:
- Why cleric, and not Oracle?
This would be my first one - I'll admit at being somewhat partial regarding the spontaneous casting vs. prepared casting but I won't even go there because I've seen endless discussions about Cleric vs. Oracle. My doubt is more related to the Oracle Misteries, and the added benefits they can bring to the character in terms of combat. Wouldn't these be a huge advantage vs. the Cleric?
- I have read about the Evangelist archetype as an option for the 'reach cleric' and would like to ask to those more experienced in playing these characters if the cap placed on the channel energy by Sermonic Performance isn't really a hard hit on his ability to heal the group effectively (or is the reach cleric not supposed to be a healer?). Also, the fact that he is not able to convert spells into Cure spells seems to be really terrible. Is it just my impression?
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So I'm playing an evangelist reach cleric of Zon-Kuthon and honestly I don't miss channelling. Bear in mind I'm playing PFS. Usually I show up to the table and someone hands me a wand of cure light, which I find more effective that channel. So the cap placed on channel energy by Sermonic performance doesn't really bother me. In fact, I add the consecrated enhancement to my weapon and usually burn my channels as extra damage during AoOs.
I guess for PFS that really is a common situation [just a tad :D], but perhaps not so much, say for example in an AP.
My question would be - can such cleric still continue being the group's primary healer, after giving up so much?
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I would say yes if by primary healer you mean the one with the cure spells prepared through scrolls, wands, or spell slots.
If you plan on using channel a lot to heal people, then no, there are better archetypes than evangelist for that.
Also, your question about the oracle. A life oracle will be able to channel more times a day than your average cleric. If channelling and healing is at the top of your list of things to do, then yeah, life oracle's good.
However the reach cleric build was designed to fix a particular problem with clerics, the problem of maximizing action economy while still balancing out the dual role clerics serve as both a martial combatant and spellcaster. That isn't to say that other classes can't take advantage of the advice given for that build. It honestly comes down to using reach weaponry to fish for AoOs and casting using your standard action.
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Don't take Selective Channel; you'll spoil them. Just tell them there were other feats you needed for your build (it's true!), you didn't have any to spare. It's not like other people take time off from their builds for feats for other players. Next, when you're in combat, warn people you'd rather not channel while there's living, resisting enemies because you're not Selective. Afterwards, (IF you take prisoners), you can make a show of being merciful and also healing wounded enemies.
The original Reach Cleric build used Acrobatics to dance out of threatened areas with a Move action, not a 5ft step. That way, if enemies want to close again, they'll have to eat your AoO.
However, I haven't seen numbers on the probability that you'll make your Acrobatics check against big monsters with high CMD. On the other hand, you have 25 point buy, so you can afford a decent Dexterity. Try to get a trait that gives Acrobatics as a class skill, and a +5 bonus from some magic item (those aren't all that expensive).
The funny thing about Acrobatics-moving is that even if the monster takes an AoO, if it doesn't kill you, the monster can't full-attack you on its next turn, because you're out of reach. One charge + one AoO might be less attacks than the monster's full attack sequence. Also, the attacks are separate in time; after your move, you have a standard action to do emergency healing if needed. It's less likely that a full attack sequence will floor you in one turn.
If you're feeling adventurous, you can experiment with Tripping people who come charging at you. If they fall down, they can't complete their charge, can't hit you that turn. Don't worry about provoking an AoO; when you trip them with reach, they're not threatening you yet, so they can't actually make that AoO.
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The Reach Cleric is a cool build; it's definitely using more advanced tactics than mere reckless charge. Not being too forthcoming with healing may stimulate your teammates to listen when you propose to discuss tactics BEFORE the next combat.
After that, remain open to the possibility that sometimes it's a good idea to actually move forward offensively; don't think that the Reach Cleric Acrobatics move backwards is always the best tactic. It's not so great against archers....
Could always acrobatics towards the foes lol
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It honestly comes down to using reach weaponry to fish for AoOs and casting using your standard action.
That's it, in a nut shell.
- Why cleric, and not Oracle?
Reach tactics work well for an Oracle, too.
- I have read about the Evangelist archetype as an option for the 'reach cleric' and ... hard hit on his ability to heal the group effectively (or is the reach cleric not supposed to be a healer?). Also, the fact that he is not able to convert spells into Cure spells seems to be really terrible. Is it just my impression?
I've played a reach Evangelist through 9th level. Indeed, an Evangelist's healing ability is awful. That is the trade-off for being the best buffer in the game. My 'awful healer' martial Evangelist Cleric typically prepares Breath of Life, one other decent Cure spell, and caries a Cure Light Wounds wand. In-combat healing is to minimize character death. A few open spell slots keeps the entire Cleric spell list, including cures and condition removal, only 15 minutes away.
Such a character can do an acceptable job as primary healer, so long as expectations are reasonable and team members not suicidal. Prepare more cure spells. Use your weak channels to best effect. Magda had to do it several times in PFS play, and no one quite died. A Life Oracle is much better at the role, and can repair ouchies in real time. So long as the party is content with, "Help keep us alive in battle, then help patch us up afterwards", you are fine.
The Evangelist archetype shines when you do things that synchronize with Inspire Courage. Summoning and martial combat are two obvious activities one might specialize in. Evangelists make terrific summoners, and even enhance allies' summoning. A reach Evangelist specialized in martial combat is weaker than a dedicated martial combatant of the same level, barring Clericzilla, but is a full caster at the same time. Both approaches prevent damage to cooperative allies, damage someone might otherwise have to heal.
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As has been said before. Its not about the strength of a cleric using reach tactics, but about how reach tactics can benefit a cleric that could do better things with his standard action. The Evangelist archetype is one of the better cleric archetypes for this build, as it opens your standard action up to some really good options.
Magda, I have to ask, did you focus more on summoning or melee with your cleric? I'm actually playing two reach clerics (one in PFS, the other in WotR) and I'd like to have an idea of where to take them beyond 3 (which is where I've capped so far). I'm thinking of taking the feat chain to superior summoning.
So someone made a good point-why not just be a paladin? Starting at level 4, I can Channel, have great saves, and be one of the powerhouse fighters without having to buff. But I lose spell casting. But I was only using it to buff anyway. Think I should just do that?
Warpriest? What's that? Note:core and apg only
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So someone made a good point-why not just be a paladin? Starting at level 4, I can Channel, have great saves, and be one of the powerhouse fighters without having to buff. But I lose spell casting. But I was only using it to buff anyway. Think I should just do that?
There are better reach fighters out there, particularly classes with full BABs. The reach cleric is for someone who wants to be a cleric first and a melee fighter second.
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So someone made a good point-why not just be a paladin? Starting at level 4, I can Channel, have great saves, and be one of the powerhouse fighters without having to buff. But I lose spell casting. But I was only using it to buff anyway. Think I should just do that?
Full spell caster. That's the reason. About 1/3 of your low level spells are for buffing yourself, the rest are for other things.
Paladins are good, too.
Oracles also greatly benefit from Reach tactics. However you will probably have to spread your casting a bit thinner as you have only a limited number of spells known. You will have to select some buffs or summons for in combat and this will greatly cut down your out of combat versatility. In return you have way more skills at your disposal.
Mysteries that come to mind are Lunar (for that tripping Wolf friend which will provoke AoO, slap on the Spirit Totem Archetype and add some nice divination spells to your spell list) Wood (for that nice to hit bonus with your longspear) Life (for the 7 INT Barbarians who need a healer all day).
So someone made a good point-why not just be a paladin? Starting at level 4, I can Channel, have great saves, and be one of the powerhouse fighters without having to buff. But I lose spell casting. But I was only using it to buff anyway. Think I should just do that?
The whole point of a reach cleric is to cast and reposition on your own turn and then attack the enemy on his. Paladins don't have the same need to improve their action economy.
The reason I'm considering it is a) the paladin, at 4th level, is superior in every way except casting. B) the other people have said what they are. We have a witch, a rogue, a barbarian, a druid, and a wizard (or inquisitor, but likely Wizard) so we've got 2 martial fighters abd 3 casters. A Reach paladin could be a fun way to play, plus it would make things even. Or is q Reach cleric enough of a martial fighter for that? Thoughts?
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Reach cleric is more than enough martial for your team. Your casters are a Wizard, a Druid, and a Witch. The druid and witch are off-healers at best, and you do not have access to any of the good divine team buffs.
I would play the Cleric to give access to full divine magic, or barring that, a Reach Bard. Inspire courage will bring far more to the table for your large party than smiting, and still give access to other buffs and healing.
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I love the combination if reach and combat reflexes. I have 2 summoners, 4 Eidolons(from 4 summoners total) and 2 multiclass Alchemists who all use this combo. None the less, I think most proponents of such describe it as way more effective than it actually is.
I think most proponents way over estimate how many AoO they really get or have fools/careless/deadicated GMs.
I disagree with power attack on a 3/4 bab class. Extra damage equals nothing when you do not hit at all. If you love to gamble, it works well for those players as long as they are humble enough to understand they have no one but them selves to blame when they miss on a roll of 10.
I think Magda finds herself in a really unusual game environment where she can often spend multiple rounds buffing before combat. How many encounters a day do you gothrough? You are buring many resources per fight.
How long does it take for the payers to complain they are tired of plaing by your tactics? Players only have so much dicilpline to play smart, sounds terrible but it is true.
So many combats put archers / spellcaters in points where you need to get to them, your reach does nothing for those conflicts.
Avoid dropping str below 18. As a 3/4 bab, and your choice to power attack, you need that extra +1 to hit. Highly consider weapon focus to further enhance your chance to at least hit so you can do any damage at all.