Extra Channel feat for Paladin level 3


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

A Paladin doesn't get channel energy until level 4. However, I took this feat at level 3 in anticipation of using it when I hit level 4. I don't think there's a problem with doing that, right?

Also, it states that for a Paladin this gives them an extra 4 Lay On Hands per day. Well, can I use that now, or only when I get to level 4?

It seems that for a Paladin, Extra Channel is a no-brainer feat to take because of the 4 extra Lay On Hands usages if you don't use it for the 2 extra channels. I almost took Extra Lay On Hands which only gives you 2 extra usages of that per day....what a waste!


I don't think you can have something extra without having the thing that you are taking extra. If I don't have chocolate cake, I can't have extra.

Silver Crusade

Elrawien Lantherion wrote:
I don't think you can have something extra without having the thing that you are taking extra. If I don't have chocolate cake, I can't have extra.

Yep, that's sort of what I'm thinking but the fact that it converts to extra Lay On Hands had me thinking. I'll still keep the feat though, even if I can't use it yet.


You generally can only take a feat when you actually have a class feature, so not before Paladin level 4. Sometimes a GM will let you take a feat early even if you can't use it.

Also, retraining will let you do so, so hey.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Extra Channel wrote:
Prerequisite: Channel energy class feature.

A 3rd level paladin doesn't qualify. If she did, she couldn't use the extra Lay On Hands because they can only be used to channel positive energy.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

As Starglim points out, the 3rd level Paladin doesn't qualify.

There's a semantic argument to be made that a 1. level Paladin has the Channel Energy Class Feature, he just doesn't have the ability yet. But that's b&*~@%** and very tiresome, so let's not go there.

However, it's absolutely reasonable to allow it. The Paladin could always take Skill Focus (Craft: Basketweaving), and then retrain it to Extra Channel at level 4 anyway.


Somewhere in the "Ask James Jacobs" thread, JJ stated that he would allow a player to select a feat even if the prerequisites were not met. (Don't ask me where in the 50.000+ entries, though...) The character in question wouldn't be able to use the feat until next level.
It was similar to your case; get the feat at level x, use it at level x+1.
However, it's not an official ruling, just an interpretation of the rules.


If you read the extra Channel feat you will see that you can not use the extra lay on hands for anything but channeling.
And of cause you cannot get the feat until you can Channel, but others have that covered.
In your Game you can do what ever you want, but the rules are clear.
Edit: and starglim had both covered i see :)

Silver Crusade

Technically, doesn't the Paladin class have the Channel Energy class feature? If, I cannot take it. Is there a way to take something else and change to that feat at level 4..."legally"?


The retraining rules from ultimate campaign.

Silver Crusade

It could be a bug, but Hero Lab made the Feat available to take. But, it doesn't list it on the character sheet yet.

Sczarni

A Paladin may spend two uses of Lay on Hands to instead Channel Energy.

It does not work in reverse, so this may be the wrong feat for you.

Silver Crusade

Nefreet wrote:

A Paladin may spend two uses of Lay on Hands to instead Channel Energy.

It does not work in reverse, so this may be the wrong feat for you.

Actually it does according to the rules of the Extra Channel feat.


Prethen wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

A Paladin may spend two uses of Lay on Hands to instead Channel Energy.

It does not work in reverse, so this may be the wrong feat for you.

Actually it does according to the rules of the Extra Channel feat.

It does, but you may only use the extra uses of Lay on Hands to actually Channel Energy. So, yes it does, but only kind of.


Prethen wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

A Paladin may spend two uses of Lay on Hands to instead Channel Energy.

It does not work in reverse, so this may be the wrong feat for you.

Actually it does according to the rules of the Extra Channel feat.

Extra Channel
You can channel divine energy more often.

Prerequisite: Channel energy class feature.

Benefit: You can channel energy two additional times per day.

Special: If a paladin with the ability to channel positive energy takes this feat, she can use lay on hands four additional times a day, BUT ONLY TO CHANNEL POSITIVE ENERGY.

A paladin doesn't get channel positive energy til level 4. One needs to be the appropriate level to obtain the class feature before it counts as qualifying for a prerequisite. Like a rogue needs to be level 5 to qualify for something that needs 3d6 sneak attack.

Channel positive energy lets the paladin consumes two uses of her lay on hands ability for one channel energy use. The Special line explains that Extra Channel feat for a paladin just adds on 4 extra lay on hands ONLY for 2 extra channels per day, not that they can use thos lay on hands normally. The Benefit line doesn't directly apply to them, but as an effect of the Special line.


Prethen wrote:
It could be a bug, but Hero Lab made the Feat available to take. But, it doesn't list it on the character sheet yet.

It might be a bug. Hero lab is a 3rd party program, so it's not to be taken as RAW or RAI.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Per SKR:

SKR wrote:
You don't have a class feature unless you actually have the class feature. So if you're not high enough level yet to have it, or your archetype swaps out that feature for something else, you do not have that feature and can't use it as a prerequisite.

So until he's 4th level, a Paladin cannot take any feat that has Channel Energy as a requirement. Unlike the logic behind wands and spell lists, feat requirements and class features don't work on the assumption that "you have it because it's in your class description at some point".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Some Random Dood wrote:
Prethen wrote:
It could be a bug, but Hero Lab made the Feat available to take. But, it doesn't list it on the character sheet yet.
It might be a bug. Hero lab is a 3rd party program, so it's not to be taken as RAW or RAI.

Herolab is a great program, but as it says in the documentation, it's not to be taken as the final word on rules adjudication. In fact, it will specifically call out certain things that are not checked by the program.

BTW, I could not myself, duplicate the bug of allowing a 3rd level paladin to take that feat. Remember if you don't check the "valid only" flag, it will list everything and allow you to take it. Doing so should throw a red flag on the play though.


Due to the existence of retraining rules explicitly allowing a character to be built on "invalid" selections, I hope the devs will just make a single decision about taking feats early.

That is to say, it is legal to have a level 4 paladin with the Extra Channel feat, but only if he uses a roundabout retraining process. I say cut out the middleman and either allow a character to take feats early or don't.

I would lean *slightly* towards "don't", because it can open up big cans of worms when it comes to things like prestige classes - you could take prerequisite feats long before they are supposed to become available, and then you'd have to deal with people arguing that they have the feat and so qualify, etc. Imagine a PrC with Improved Critical as a requirement being entered at level 3 or 4, for example. You'd have to edit all PrCs to make sure you haven't broken their expected entry requirements, or make new, confusing rules about how you can select the feat, but don't count as having it yet.

I'd much rather say that prerequisites are prerequisites. IMO, a level 4 paladin shouldn't have EC as his level 3 feat, because that wasn't a valid choice then.

Sczarni

So, be able to take whatever feats whenever, but you just can't use them until you meet all the prerequisites?


I had not thought of this in combination with the retraining rules. That does open up some odd situations.

It's true though that retraining does have some costs associated with it, and (unless I'm mistaken) are considered 'optional' rules so the GM can always just decline to allow them.


Nefreet wrote:
So, be able to take whatever feats whenever, but you just can't use them until you meet all the prerequisites?

I'd prefer that to the current situation (take filler feat, retrain it later), but I don't really like either one. I'd rather a given character be built on a level-by-level valid basis.

Silver Crusade

I've changed my feat to Step Up.


Bizbag wrote:
Due to the existence of retraining rules explicitly allowing a character to be built on "invalid" selections, I hope the devs will just make a single decision about taking feats early.

Or better yet, errata the retraining rules not to allow exploits like this.


It's no different than wanting to take Weapon Focus at lvl 1 if you're not a full-BAB class. Sure, you fulfill the prereq at level 2, but you still have to wait until lvl 3 to get a feat slot. Regarding the Paladin, you can throw in a level in some other class so that you get Paladin 4 (and channel energy) at character level 5 so you can use the feat slot for it right away. But it's really sort of a "6 of one, half a dozen of the other" sort of deal since you don't get the feat until level 5 in either case.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Extra Channel feat for Paladin level 3 All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.