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Your character is lying, not keeping their word, disrespecting the authority , violating tradition, and then not judging themselves for falling well short of their duties as a paladin.
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Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
All paladins are lawful, and all paladins are good. But every paladin's priorities are different, based on their god and their own experiences.
My code has 10 precepts. The one I suspect you would most have issue with is:
If keeping silent or a small untruth can prevent a great injustice or harm to innocents, I will not put my pride above that greater good.
Now, that doesn't mean that she'll wander around casually lying because it makes things easier. But when it came down to a choice between lying to protect an innocent member of her church from the lawful authorities of an unjust nation, giving them up to their death, or getting herself and her party killed in a hopeless battle, my paladin lied. Now, she could have kept silent and hoped that someone else in the party could pull off a bluff, but that would have been both unlikely to succeed and the coward's way out.
That's what the paladin's code is FOR - a guide in making moral decisions in situations where none of the options are 'good.' And that certainly does happen in PFS scenarios.
Punishment and vengeance are righteous to many paladins. For my paladin they are the greatest temptation, and something she must avoid at all costs. (Oh, the arguments between my paladin of Sarenrae and the inquisitor of Gorum.)
Later on, in another encounter with hostile guardsmen, she spent the battle trying to do enough non-lethal damage to each enemy soldier so that they would be knocked unconscious rather than killed by her party. They were misguided humans, after all, not demons. It is vital to her paladin code to show mercy and allow for the possibility of redemption - not an easy thing to convince a random weekly group of Pathfinders to do!
The paladin trick of 'going for a walk' while the party does something under-handed is not something she would ever do. She knows there are many paths to the light, and not everyone follows hers, but if it's a big enough violation, she will argue, and she will do her best to prevent whatever injustice might be carried out in the name of expediency.
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I do not know if this was mentioned, but there is nothing stopping players from creating their own "Inner Faction Factions" with other people.
We will take the Shinning Crusade as an Example:
I and my friends all have a Paladin/Cleric/Fighter/Inquisitor. We decide Shinning Crusade suites our over all goals for our character but, simply is not defined enough. We put together the "Templars of Iomedea". This group falls under The Shinning Crusade, and has no tangible benefits outside of Roleplay, but it allows us to really define our characters within this over arching organization, a Roleplay Subcommitee. Very similiar to a guild in an MMO. It can have its own code, and standing that the players can work with on their own, and police on their own.
Nothing in the campaign stops you from doing this so long as your "guild" still follows the overarching goals of the faction you join, for Shinning Crusade, rooting out evil
"You suddenly realize that Iomedae would be very upset about you killing the blind old woman who just threatened to call the guards."
This should probably be more like:
"You suddenly realize that Iomedae is incredibly pissed that you even considered killing the blind old woman who just threatened to call the guards."|
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Your character is lying, not keeping their word, disrespecting the authority , violating tradition, and then not judging themselves for falling well short of their duties as a paladin.
...
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents....
My code has 10 precepts. The one I suspect you would most have issue with is:
If keeping silent or a small untruth can prevent a great injustice or harm to innocents, I will not put my pride above that greater good.
This may be fair, but is also a place where you can expect table variation. There are a number of GMs who would interpret the part of the Core Rules that BNW quoted as RAW, and if you were to lie in the course of an adventure, they would rule that your paladin falls and requires an atonement. You should either be prepared for that eventuality, or choose your GMs carefully.
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Hey all.
I removed the Iomedae Code I had up and am working on a different format that won't really mimic a Chronicle sheet at all. I'll post a draft as soon as I'm finished.
It'll be double-sided, with the front having the Paladin code and Deity-specific oath, and on the back will be rows where different GMs can fill out their signatures and the event where they witnessed the character.
I appreciate everyone's input so far!
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Good call Nefreet. I had some similar questions on a project I was working myself, and was directed to the Paizo Community Use Policy.
You may want to include their snippet at the top, and ensure that you follow the guidelines listed. Just to be safe.
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My code has 10 precepts. The one I suspect you would most have issue with is:
If keeping silent or a small untruth can prevent a great injustice or harm to innocents, I will not put my pride above that greater good.
You, by definition, can't have YOUR code of Saranrae. Its an oxymoron. The code of Saranrae already exists in cannon. Its no different than saying well my power attack can shut on and off at will in between my first and second attack.
A code is supposed to be guidance and variation, NOT a loophole to say that the paladin code doesn't apply to you.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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My code has 10 precepts. The one I suspect you would most have issue with is:
If keeping silent or a small untruth can prevent a great injustice or harm to innocents, I will not put my pride above that greater good.You, by definition, can't have YOUR code of Saranrae. Its an oxymoron. The code of Saranrae already exists in cannon. Its no different than saying well my power attack can shut on and off at will in between my first and second attack.
A code is supposed to be guidance and variation, NOT a loophole to say that the paladin code doesn't apply to you.
While the CODE may be written from on high, it is interpreted by mortals. And when it comes into conflict with itself, such as when justice conflicts with mercy, or telling the truth conflicts with protecting the innocent then even a Lawful Good Paladin MUST choose which is the lesser of two evil. Anything else would mean that a Paladin autofalls any time a conflict occurs in the code. It seems to me that Keerawa is simply formalizing which of the two are lesser evils should this conflict arise.
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While the CODE may be written from on high, it is interpreted by mortals. And when it comes into conflict with itself, such as when justice conflicts with mercy, or telling the truth conflicts with protecting the innocent then even a Lawful Good Paladin MUST choose which is the lesser of two evil. Anything else would mean that a Paladin autofalls any time a conflict occurs in the code. It seems to me that Keerawa is simply formalizing which of the two are lesser evils should this conflict arise.My code has 10 precepts. The one I suspect you would most have issue with is:
If keeping silent or a small untruth can prevent a great injustice or harm to innocents, I will not put my pride above that greater good.You, by definition, can't have YOUR code of Saranrae. Its an oxymoron. The code of Saranrae already exists in cannon. Its no different than saying well my power attack can shut on and off at will in between my first and second attack.
A code is supposed to be guidance and variation, NOT a loophole to say that the paladin code doesn't apply to you.
I think the problem is when that formalization becomes a codification of loopholes and rationalizations.
My opinion on paladins is that it's the player's job to religiously (ha?) enforce their adherence to the code without disrupting the party dynamics. It's the GM's job to not make that job any harder than it has to be. But that assumes that the player is making a good faith (ha?) effort.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Of all the restrictions I have seen be the most problematic with the Paladin's code in PFS it is the "honesty" one. Quite frankly, there are a large number of PFS adventures that, if this portion of the code is adhered to strictly, would mean the Paladin must always choose between falling or failing the mission. Most of these adventures involve the PCs infiltrating some organization under the direct orders of their lawful authority, i.e. their local Venture Captain. Infiltration by its nature requires to you pretend to be someone you are not, which is a lie. While sometimes it is possible to find creative solutions that would not cause a fall, that is not always the case. So I find that of all the portions of the code, honesty is the one PFS GMs have to be the most flexible about.
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So, for example, when my paladin lied to the authorities in a recent scenario, the GM could see that lying to save lives was accepted under my own personal code as a paladin of Saranrae.No... just... no.
I suspect that this particular misinterpretation was inspired by seeing the Dawnflower Dissident which explicitly is designed around lying and deceiving in the service of the greater good.
So while Sarenrae herself seems to be ok with that kind of behavior, it does not make it ok for paladins. That is why Inquisitors and now warpriests are necessary, since if paladins were the only holy warriors they would be stopped from doing what is necessary in many situations by their scruples and code. Paladins would especially need help from their more flexible brothers-in-arms when facing things like entrenched, institutionalized Lawful Evil which is backed up by a body of functional laws.
Of all the restrictions I have seen be the most problematic with the Paladin's code in PFS it is the "honesty" one. Quite frankly, there are a large number of PFS adventures that, if this portion of the code is adhered to strictly, would mean the Paladin must always choose between falling or failing the mission. Most of these adventures involve the PCs infiltrating some organization under the direct orders of their lawful authority, i.e. their local Venture Captain. Infiltration by its nature requires to you pretend to be someone you are not, which is a lie. While sometimes it is possible to find creative solutions that would not cause a fall, that is not always the case. So I find that of all the portions of the code, honesty is the one PFS GMs have to be the most flexible about.
Paladins really have to become masters of plausible deniability in order to operate in the context of a party that is not entirely goody-two-shoes.
Either by just not saying anything at all and just letting other party members who are able to carry out the mission make excuses as to why, or making sure that they are elsewhere when their code would obstruct the rest of the party in what they are supposed to be doing. It is difficult, but that is the point of being paladins and it can be fun sometimes to roleplay deniability.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Paladins really have to become masters of plausible deniability in order to operate in the context of a party that is not entirely goody-two-shoes.
Either...
A. Since Paladins are frequently the party face, your solutions are problematic.
B. It could be argued that plausible deniability, misinformation, lies by omission and other forms of obfuscation are still dishonest even they technically aren't lies. Or are you arguing that Paladins only need to live up to the letter of their code, not the spirit?
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A. Since Paladins are frequently the party face, your solutions are problematic.
Well the alternative is the party refusing to let the paladin participate in the adventure at all for fear of auto-failure. A player of a paladin should know that there are situations where they need to shut up. I have rarely seen a paladin be the sole face in a party there is typically a CHA-caster who has invested a little bit in social abilities.
B. It could be argued that plausible deniability, misinformation, lies by omission and other forms of obfuscation are still dishonest even they technically aren't lies. Or are you arguing that Paladins only need to live up to the letter of their code, not the spirit?
Again we come to the fact that paladins have an enormous potential, more than any other class, to be disruptive in play. In a real campaign where the player and DM have meaningful discussion about the bounds of behavior for someone with a LG code this is mostly obviated. in PFS, however, that communication does not exist and we see the fact that at it's core the paladin is not a class which plays nice with others as it represents the ultimate in "my way or the highway".
Keeping silent when asked a question is not lying. Allowing the rest of the party to lead you around by the nose and do things behind your back is not a code violation. It is the leeway that players of paladins have in order to avoid becoming a disruptive player. Paladins who behave as if these are the same are 99% likely to be disruptive and lessen the fun for everyone else at the table and for that reason should be done away with.
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Hey all.
I removed the Iomedae Code I had up and am working on a different format that won't really mimic a Chronicle sheet at all. I'll post a draft as soon as I'm finished.
It'll be double-sided, with the front having the Paladin code and Deity-specific oath, and on the back will be rows where different GMs can fill out their signatures and the event where they witnessed the character.
I appreciate everyone's input so far!
Sounds great! And thank you for your enthusiasm!
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As far as paladin codes and party behavior, it's important to remember that the paladin's code only applies to the paladin. He doesn't fall for failing to stop the party alchemist from using poison, and I don't think it's much different in the types of situations now being discussed. The paladin needs to follow the spirit of his code, but that still doesn't apply to his companions.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Again we come to the fact that paladins have an enormous potential, more than any other class, to be disruptive in play.
That's pretty much the entire crux of my issues here. The more rigidly you interpret the Paladin's Code, whether you are the player doing it or the DM, the more disruptive it will be to play. Which is why, in organized play, you need to be more loose with them.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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As far as paladin codes and party behavior, it's important to remember that the paladin's code only applies to the paladin. He doesn't fall for failing to stop the party alchemist from using poison, and I don't think it's much different in the types of situations now being discussed. The paladin needs to follow the spirit of his code, but that still doesn't apply to his companions.
Which, sadly, can still be subject to table variation. While I haven't seen this crop up in a PFS game yet, more than once I have had a DM look at me in shock when I was playing a Paladin and another party member did something morally questionable and state, "Are you going to let him do that?"
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I'm leery of having to get your paladin-hood accredited.No one is proposing you have to do anything. It is voluntary, to both encourage role-play and verify that someone besides you agrees with your read on the paladin's code of conduct. Think of it as a peer review.
Why do people submit things for peer review? Because if they didn't they would likely not get published and even if they did get published the rest of the community would not take them seriously. If peer reviewing Paladins becomes popular I don't see why this would be any different. Which means that if you wanted people to take your Paladin seriously, this no longer becomes voluntary.
As far as paladin codes and party behavior, it's important to remember that the paladin's code only applies to the paladin. He doesn't fall for failing to stop the party alchemist from using poison, and I don't think it's much different in the types of situations now being discussed. The paladin needs to follow the spirit of his code, but that still doesn't apply to his companions.Which, sadly, can still be subject to table variation. While I haven't seen this crop up in a PFS game yet, more than once I have had a DM look at me in shock when I was playing a Paladin and another party member did something morally questionable and state, "Are you going to let him do that?"
The code actually has a clause about someone who 'offends her moral code' which can be interpreted as having to do something about it. Its also a little awkward to be above doing something dishonorable, but then allowing that guy to the left of you to do it.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
The code itself has a number of criticisms such as inherently allowing for fall-fall and not being everyones idea of lawful good, and its subject to interpretation, and this before we talk about the PFS environment with being a pathfinder(not always a good guy job) and possibly playing with a totally different person every Thursday and not much talking about alignment/codes/how to handle the paladin like a home game might allow.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I have rarely seen a paladin be the sole face in a party there is typically a CHA-caster who has invested a little bit in social abilities.
There will be regional variation on this. When we first started doing PFS in our area a year & a half ago, we had a lot of new players who did not feel confident enough in their role-playing abilities to play a party face and deliberately built characters so that they couldn't. There were times when my 11 Charisma untrained gnome had the highest social skills at the table. This was, in fact, one of the reason I decided to play a paladin. As a result, for quite some time, I was the only party face at the table, and that includes both times we had to infiltrate a cult of Lissala. This trend has decreased as new players have become more confident with their role-playing skills, but you always get new players.
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What deity?
Well, it is Year of the Demon and I have yet to play most of them, so why not Iomedae? Seems logical and she seems to have the strictest adherence to truth, honor, and the 'merican way :-)
For next season (Mummy's Mask) I would probably learn more towards a paladin of Sarenrae or an Inquisitor of Pharasma
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Bob: I did this for Year of the Demon. I decided to build a Mendevian Crusader of Iomedae so I can run through the scenarios for this season. Sadly due to circumstance and an engrossing Dragons Demands that low level character has now because level 6 and is starting to miss out on things. Ive tried to bring a lighter touch to the character, hes more thoughtful that headstrong, more lighttouched than heavy handed.
Its the main reason in my view that his brothers have offered his services to the Society as opposed to him being there to fight back against the demons, even if he wants to be there. He generally offers quarter to all his mortal 'foes' but no remorse to any outsider/ demonic foe.
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My last pally was kind of apathetic, mostly to avoid all the cr@p a pally has to deal with in PFS. I built a drunken dwarf just so I could role-play not paying attention to the typical actions of the murder/torture hobos. He is a seeker now and was fun to play, but I want a bigger challenge, so maybe a human crusader-pally, a bit more of a zealot is in order. Dunno
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I would really love to see a paladin that does not try to kill things in a black/white view.
My oni-spawn inquisitor of Sarenrae will never kill a living creature so they have the option of redemption. This includes devils and demons since he sees them as no different them himself before he "saw the light".
A non-lethal smiting would be awesome.
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Finlander: I love Paladins having a Black /White view. Lets save the shades of grey (and the creepy dungeons) for the other classes.
That's fine as long as they aren't a zealot that cannot abide the others from performing "immoral" acts in his presence. When the pally starts to force his will upon the party is when problems arise.
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The answer is not always death. Was what I meant from black/white.
You find the villian and kill it. There is more to it than that.
Honestly I find most paladin characters to be "murder hobos". It is rare I see a paladin going out of their way to "help those in need", it is focus on " punish those who harm or threaten innocents" by killing them.
I am not saying anyone should be punished, but I would love to see a paladin that subdued villians and brought them to justice for society to decide their punishment.
More variety in the ways they are played.
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I made an oath of vengeance paladin (level 6 now) of Iomedae with 7 wisdom for low sense motive. That way the party can convince me to go pick mushrooms for breakfast when they want to do something they know I wont approve of. With a -2 survival it often times takes me quite a while to pick enough mushrooms to feed a party of 6.
Code of Conduct: Never let lesser eveils (sic) distract you from your pursuit of just vengeance.
I dont have an issue with playing a pit born tiefling paladin abandoned at birth and found in the wilds bearing a mark of the First World. :)
I aint afraid of no certification process. Bring it on.
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GM: You've Fallen.
Paladin: What? Why? Was it because in the name of an abstract 'good' objective - if even that - I've helped to slaughter dozens of creatures without actually checking to make sure they were truly evil? Hell, even pretty much knowing some of them were neutral?
GM: What? No, don't be ridiculous. It's because you were forced into a SMALL LIE to try to avoid killing and/or to protect innocents. SHAME! Your Neutral Good deity wants nothing to do with you, and takes all your powers away!
Paladin: But... the words 'not lying' just appear in brackets as a guideline to what generally constitutes 'honorable' behavior; surely there are exceptions? We have little trouble excusing killing, but strictly draw the line at never, ever lying, for any reason, no matter how morally justified? For that matter, if I'm going around obviously sacrificing lives in the name of making sure I hold on to my powers, what does that make me?
GM: IIIIIINFIDEL! Do you dare tempt me with rational thought? You risk the further wrath of the pure at your peril!
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While I see what your are getting at and I think your argument has merit, as a player I would rather sit down with the player who has a paladin for mechanical reasons than the one who goes nova on his code. When I see a paladin volunteer to let my imp (which contains my spellcaster) ride on his shoulder, we all kind of laugh about the guy being a knob. When I see a paladin forcing his code and problem solving techniques on the rest of the group, no one is near as jovial.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Sometimes its best to sit the session out with a particular character. I recommend this with the Lissala arc in season 4 for Paladins and particuarly devout characters.
A player should not have his play opportunities reduced simply because of his choice of character. This is especially true when adventures do not come with a "morally questionable actions may be required" warning label on them and by the time you find out backing out means you will never get to play that adventure with any character. The only other option is to research these adventures ahead of time, but this would require you to get metagame knowledge that can decrease the fun of the adventure.
Since PFS does not issue warning labels on adventures and doesn't let you replay an adventure once you have started it, then obviously they intend for all adventures to be played by all legal character builds.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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A player should not have his play opportunities reduced simply because of his choice of character. This is especially true when adventures do not come with a "morally questionable actions may be required" warning label on them and by the time you find out backing out means you will never get to play that adventure with any character.
This is why I try to warn new players away from playing Paladins, and try to warn people if some mission is especially antithetical to the paladin code.
The character is lawful good before they become a Paladin. They don't look for loopholes, they don't quibble about what if's. They are concerned with doing right for good's sake. That's who they are as a person, before Paladinhood is even considered.
They don't turn LG because they became a Paladin, they qualify to be a Paladin because they are LG.
I think the players of LG characters do that, not realizing that a LG character would not necessarily do so.
A player should not have his play opportunities reduced simply because of his choice of character.
Playing a paladin is tough. They are bound by a higher authority.
Paladins are in a weird place. Sometimes people's ideas of how they should be are placed over whether they are playable or not. You also get ideals like how paladins are supposed to be better than good, they're too good for mortals, and all sorts of other things mixed in with it. I once met a guy who told me you had to suffer to be a paladin and that it wasn't supposed to be fun. Which was... awkward to sit with because I came to a game to have fun.
