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I'd like to posit a theory that's been on my mind a bit regarding the casting time of Walk Through Space. Many here said that it should be a standard action, but I may have found the inspiration of the spell that throws such a ruling into question. Dimension Jumper from 3.5 is eerily similar to Walk Through Space in practice, save some slight differences.
1) Walk Through Space allows you to stand up from prone without provoking an attack of opportunity.
2) Dimension Jumper has only verbal components, while Walk Through Space has verbal, somatic, and (inexpensive) material components.
3) As you may have noticed, Dimension Jumper is a whole two levels lower than Walk Through Space.
Other than these, the differences in the spells are negligible. I am currently under the impression that Walk Through Space is a nerfed version of Dimension Jumper, though why it needed to be powered down is beyond me. Dimension Jumper states a casting time of a swift action. I propose that this should be considered when judging the casting time of Walk Through Space.
Thoughts? Arguments? If you were a GM, would you allow this at your table?
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I don't know that I necessarily buy your argument, but I do note that the description of the spell lacks any casting time. Even your normal, default one standard action casting time spells have a casting time listed.
So I hope the Devs errata for this spell as there seems to be an obvious typo in Ultimate Combat.
As a GM, I'd be fine with it being a swift action to cast. The real limitation on the spell is the move action to teleport.
In my personal opinion 'Dimension Jumper' with a spell level 5 sounds too good to be true. As a level 7 spell it is ok. So yeah swift action sounds good.
I was hoping to maybe get more response, but I guess not many people necessarily use Walk Through Space. Still, nice to know I'm agreed with.
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I swear there was another thread about this not that long ago.
Here it is.
It's probably a standard action to cast. Then enjoy your 13 rounds (minimum) of teleportation.
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Yeah, I was going to ask if it was more powerful then a "quickened Dimension door" (verbal only, swift action, effectively a level 8 spell). I think that it is. (limited to 30', but more then 1 jump per casting, move action so you still have a standard action afterwards, etc). I, too, vote for the standard action.
I'm not sure if it's more powerful than a quickened Dimension Door, assuming either with the standard action or swift action casting time. At that caster level, you're pushing nearly a quarter mile with each jump. And while you may say that you get to cover more ground over the duration, you could cover even further ground with a quickened Haste, which is the same level. And that affects multiple people instead of just yourself. At least, that's my argument on the latter.
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The big thing for me was the "move action to teleport". Having a standard left to do things is a pretty big thing with that kind of movement. You are, after all, getting 30' movement that provokes no AoO, and can bypass most all barriers (wall of force for example), and still allows you to cast another spell, attack, or any other standard action afterward.
Note, I am only looking at it from a combat point of view. Also, from my point of view, it feels right power wise for a standard at that level.
Same here, but I still feel as though I have to disagree. Walk Through Space does not allow passage through most barriers, as it says that you need to be within line of sight to get there. Wall of Force seems to be among the only barriers you would be able to teleport through, save for a wall that includes windows. Furthermore, you must end your teleportation on the ground, which rules out airborne or underwater use.
As for the AoO factor, a better idea would be a quickened Fly which would move you out of range of most creatures just fine, gives you an increased move speed to the tune of Haste (which stacks), and lasts ten times as long.
I know that it may be unfair to judge spells by comparing them with metamagic spells, but if I have to compete with the kind of versatility from quickened Fly and I have to abide the limitations of Walk Through Space, the swift action on the latter would at least help make the decision more difficult, wouldn't you agree?
Same here, but I still feel as though I have to disagree. Walk Through Space does not allow passage through most barriers, as it says that you need to be within line of sight to get there. Wall of Force seems to be among the only barriers you would be able to teleport through, save for a wall that includes windows. Furthermore, you must end your teleportation on the ground, which rules out airborne or underwater use.
As for the AoO factor, a better idea would be a quickened Fly which would move you out of range of most creatures just fine, gives you an increased move speed to the tune of Haste (which stacks), and lasts ten times as long.
I know that it may be unfair to judge spells by comparing them with metamagic spells, but if I have to compete with the kind of versatility from quickened Fly and I have to abide the limitations of Walk Through Space, the swift action on the latter would at least help make the decision more difficult, wouldn't you agree?
Yes and no. For instance, take into consideration that flying high by yourself paints you as a target. Any ranged enemies now have a clear shot at you. Also, at the time you get access to a quickened fly your enemies you should have access to potions of fly. So you might have a one round advantage on them, but you've only delayed them with that specific action. You also will still provoke AoO for your movement, even while flying. A much better use of your spells is not casting a Quicked Fly spell at all, it's a terrible waste of a 7th level spell slot, when you consider that Overland Flight is a 5th level spell that lasts for hours per level.
Yes and no. For instance, take into consideration that flying high by yourself paints you as a target. Any ranged enemies now have a clear shot at you. Also, at the time you get access to a quickened fly your enemies you should have access to potions of fly. So you might have a one round advantage on them, but you've only delayed them with that specific action. You also will still provoke AoO for your movement, even while flying. A much better use of your spells is not casting a Quicked Fly spell at all, it's a terrible waste of a 7th level spell slot, when you consider that Overland Flight is a 5th level spell that lasts for hours per level.Same here, but I still feel as though I have to disagree. Walk Through Space does not allow passage through most barriers, as it says that you need to be within line of sight to get there. Wall of Force seems to be among the only barriers you would be able to teleport through, save for a wall that includes windows. Furthermore, you must end your teleportation on the ground, which rules out airborne or underwater use.
As for the AoO factor, a better idea would be a quickened Fly which would move you out of range of most creatures just fine, gives you an increased move speed to the tune of Haste (which stacks), and lasts ten times as long.
I know that it may be unfair to judge spells by comparing them with metamagic spells, but if I have to compete with the kind of versatility from quickened Fly and I have to abide the limitations of Walk Through Space, the swift action on the latter would at least help make the decision more difficult, wouldn't you agree?
Granted, Overland Flight is a better spell, but my point is that both Overland Flight and Quickened Fly are loads longer (in Overland's case, 1,000x longer than Walk Through Space), allow for 3D maneuvering (which may be used to avoid AoOs), and give more than 30' movement. Even if we state that a quickened Fly is a poor choice, what about Mass Fly? For one standard action, by your argument, I could give all my allies extra movement speed and maneuverability for a minimum of two hours, or I could do similar for only myself for two minutes but drop any extra speed.
It seems like a poor choice and rough competition for Walk Through Space in that case. The swift action, other than having the whole legacy thing from the 3.5 version, at least makes the spell more viable to pick up, wouldn't you say?
Sure they give 30ft movement, and you might be able to manuever and avoid AoO, but it's also very possible that you can't. Assuming that land based enemies aren't able to somehow reach you while you're flying is an easy way to become a pincushion or find yourself surrounded by opponents who also have magical access to flight. Walk Through Space will prevent all AoO from movement because it is teleportation.
And this isn't about which spell accomplishes the most for a party/caster. The question is, what is the casting time of the spell? It was obviously left out. And it is extremely unlikely it was on purpose, since you need some sort casting time to actually cast it (even if it was a free action somehow it would need to be stated). The question isn't, "Is there a better spell you could cast the first round of combat?" or "Is there a better spell you could prebuff yourself with?" if you knew combat was going to happen as soon as you walk through a door. The question is, how long does it take to cast Walk Through Space?
Besides which, while mass fly would be a vey potent buff for the party (mostly for melee characters) it still doesn't have the individual benefit of denying AoO for movement. That is the major feature of Walk Through Space. You get to teleport for 13 rounds. If they gave you a huge movement speed with it the spell would be overpowered. Besides which, I don't know how often you're fighting combats where you need to move 60ft every round to bring the fight to the enemy but my group tends to have combat where you might need to double move the first round to reach an enemy and engage the next round, but after the first round 30ft of movement is normally all you need.
Further, it doesn't matter if the spell is a poor choice compared to other spells for the same spell level. I agree that its not as good as some other 7th level spell options, if you checked the thread I linked I stated that before. Really though, how many spells are swift actions to cast without using Quicken Spell? I don't know the answer, but I'm sure it's a low number.
Look, the spell work just fine with being a standard action cast. You can even cast it and move in the same round. Unlike Dimension Door (which it is similar to with shorter range but longer duration) which automatically ends your turn after casting.
Will I be upset if the Paizo Development Team comes in and says "Sure make it a swift action". No I wont, but until they take the time to address this error I always lean to the side of caution which says it should be a standard action cast time and I still think it is useful as such.
Edit: Also, avoid making comparisons to 3.5. This is Pathfinder not DnD. 3.5 can set a precedent to an extent, but were not even talking about the same spells here (the names are different). Further, if anything Dimension Jumper was too good as a 5th level spell.
Or think of it in this context, Dimension Door is a 4th level spell. You could make it a 7th level spell and be able to cast it quicken to be able to teleport once up ~1000ft. Or you can cast Walk Through Space as a standard and be able to teleport for 13 rounds (shorter distances). And teleporting doesn't prevent you from taking other actions with WTS. To me, I see those as roughly equal.
I understand that the discussion is not about which spell is more powerful, I'm just trying to offer alternatives of the same spell level and compare to Walk Through Space. I remember reading guidelines to making your own spells, possibly from Ultimate Campaign I think, and it mentioned that comparisons like this help to determine if a spell is suited for a particular level. I'm merely arguing that, as a standard action casting time, Walk Through Space feels like it doesn't match up with other spells of the same level. At least, not to me.
If your enemies cannot fly, you can get out of their threatened squares by going over them. If they can, you can go over or under them. It's simply avoiding AoO that I was comparing Walk Through Space to. On top of which, you're the only one who can benefit from the spell. At least Fly is touch ranged, you'll end up going it alone with Walk Through Space. Like I said, it's just some comparison taken for comparison's sake, but it does paint the spell in question in a different light. To further compare, even the quickened Dimension Door you mentioned has greater utility, as you can bring allies along for the ride. I believe that giving this personal spell a swift action does not elevate it's power level above any other 7th level slot option.
There are a few other high level swift spells, though you are right with there not being many. Cold Ice Strike and Ride the Lightning are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. However, that doesn't mean naturally swift spells are broken. I simply see that giving it to Walk Through Space makes it significantly more competitive.
Furthermore, I only bring up 3.5 because Walk Through Space was brought up in the Core Rulebook, back when one of Pathfinder's goals was to be 3.5 compatible. Spells were changed, I get this. Finger of Death and Wail of the Banchee used to kill instead of do damage. Forcecage used to allow no save. I can see how Dimensional Jumper was too powerful, but I feel that bumping it two levels makes up for that. Would the swift action here cause it to become overpowered? Personally, I think it simply becomes viable. I just simply couldn't believe that Paizo didn't know about this spell from the get go and threw on the level jump as a nerf. Not listing the casting time may have been a typo, but I find it hard to think that Walk Through Space wasn't a rebranding for the new Dimensional Jumper.
On another note, I do enjoy this discussion greatly.
Does anyone else have any input?
This spell was debated last week by somebody who noticed the missing casting time and wished to cheese it into some sort of immediate and constant at-will contingency that would simply go off any time he was threatened.
I led the charge against it in that case: based on other spells with the teleport descriptor, I am firmly in the camp that casting this is a standard action. The spell is very, very useful. And the spells it is constantly being compared to have very limited use per casting, such as dimension door. Those are not real comparisons.
I buy no argument that in order to be level-appropriate it must be turned into a swift -- or worse, automatic -- action. I think anybody who puts forth that idea is either not examining the high utility of the spell, or is trying to cheese it to his advantage, or both.
Well, Brun, might I ask about your take on the comparison to Dimensional Jumper? Walk Through Space is already two levels higher for the same ability, essentially. Not saying that it MUST be brought over as is over editions, but it doesn't seem necessarily overpowered to me. I'm not trying to cheese, I'm simply in the camp that the utility does not pay for it's cost.
See, that's what I was thinking. I just see that it's been nerfed so much that I don't see why Walk Through Space is at the level it is. Seems to me that changing level would be rather difficult for a spell this old, so we might as well get a confirmation on the casting time.
I may need to concede this point. Seems like this question of casting time was already addressed in an errata to Ultimate Combat of all things. Such a shame, I thought I was onto something there.
PRD says it's a standard action. Where's all the debate coming from?Walk through Space
School conjuration (teleportation); Level alchemist 6, magus 6, sorcerer/wizard 7, summoner 6, witch 7Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a wren's egg)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/level
When under the effects of this spell, you can teleport up to 30 feet as a move action. You must end this movement in an unoccupied space that you can stand on within line of sight. Alternatively, you can spend a move action to teleport to a standing position from lying prone. Teleporting does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
I believe the PRD was just changed last night when Ultimate Combat(not sure if it was this or another) recieved an errata. They have now finally added a casting time to the spell. I know I had looked at the spell previously on the PRD, and it did not show a casting time.
And it is a standard action, as I presumed.
Well, it was worth a shot. Really thought I had a solid argument, but I guess it wasn't meant to be.
I think a key distinction is omitted between WTS and a quickened dimension door, which is that dimension door won't let you take actions after it even quickened, except with an additional feat. And yeah, the standard action is why I basically never use WTS; it should be useful, but action economy means it's too expensive to cast in the first place.
Unless you can precast it. Or have it on contingency. But yes, generally I agree with you.
